Engineers: Reality and Human Nature vs. Design Intent - Why the design Creates Tedium

[Rafe Zetter]

Amazing analysis OP.... just totally missing one teensy tiny point.

Our ships were performing just fine before engineers, and still perform just fine without engineers, at least for PvE.

Engineers, like many things in games, provide a reward for effort put in. The effort is rewarded with a permanent boost to one of your ships. I see no problem here, and the new system, while i liked the old gambling system, has done a lot to address some of the issues with the old system.

FD obviously expect a certain amount of overall effort from engineers to achieve various goals. If they wanted to make it quicker and easier, they would. Since they don't, they have set out their stall and said "this is how much effort we want you to put in". You might not like it, fair enough. You might prefer a different way of getting the rewards, but presumably if it were to change, it would still require effort.

In short, FD aren't likely to make it too easy to get what you want.

Sorry but I have to both agree and disagree... confused?

Yes our ships performed fine without engineers for PvE, and yes they still do... BUT the moment you introduce upgrades to a ships combat ability, the status quo is broken, because human nature is such that "faster is better" - especially where combat is concerned, even against NPC's.

The way FDev and those who say "engineers isn't necessary" talk, you'd be forgiven for thinking they had never played a game where there was more than one weapon type or boosts to performance, either temporary via potions or permanent via upgrades.

Games have been using "stat boost" mechanics for a very long time - and no-one with half a brain would willingly ignore those if they are reasonably simple to obtain, and some players will go to extraordinary efforts for even a 1% boost - even in SOLO games.

The "stat boost" mechanic, however it's implemented has been the backbone of almost every game I can think of (and that's thousands) for over 30 years and yet you still claim "engineers isn't necessary".

Question - if it wasn't necessary, why did FDev spend quite a lot of time and no small amount of money developing it, and even more money to fix it?

In multiplayer games "stat boosts" of any kind become a necessity NOT A CHOICE, because even if YOU aren't that bothered about that 1% boost, you can bet your donkey that anyone you group up with DOES.

If it wasn't for the fact that the wing system in ED was so utterly broken - we would already have seen situations where a player wanted to join a random wing group, got "inspected" by the other members and booted out because he wasn't using engineered modules - or just as bad - the wrong modules, according to their "rules".

and this human behaviour has been seen on almost every multiplayer type game where you'll meet and be teamed with random players for more than 15 years.

and yet you still say "engineers isn't necessary"......

What you and them and FDev don't understand, even now, is THE PLAYERS MAKE THEM NECESSARY, because 90% of players are epeen stroking idiots who consider "stock gear" inferior.

The only way to make a "stat boost" mechanic unecessary is by not having one AT ALL; introduce even a 0.5% boost mechanic and the players will make having it a necessity, because that's what you humans do. The "sharp stick vs sharpER stick" mentality has been around since "upright apes" started using tools, but it seems FDev and others are only just learning about it now.... so sad.

Always have, always will; ad infinitum - ignore that rule and be forever chained to trying to balance it, just as FDev are now finding to thier cost.

Now that ED is going to get more "wings" related content, I'm saying right here right now (again**), that wing groups WILL KICK random players who don't have G5 engineered modules, and will even kick some who do, but the WRONG ONES; thus locking content for those players behind the G5 grind wall.

You mark my words - it's as guarenteed as the sun rising in the east.

** because I said this would happen when engineers idea was first mentioned.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Please use analogies you actually know about. As a PC enthusiest and overclocker, I found this post very painful to read. It's obvious you don't know what your talking about.

He was using the PC upgrading analogy as though it was how engineering used to be, he wasn't being literal. Talking about "Unofficial informers from the manufacturers helping him jailbreak CPU's to optimise performance" should have made it obvious to anyone that he was blending a real world overclocking analogy with ED's ridiculously convoluted engineers system, because not a single overclocker in history, even those going for CPU overclock records with liquid nitrogen, has done even a 10th of what he describes.


(and if by some absolute chance he thinks what he's saying is reality, he's lying, because no sane person would go to that amount of trouble to minmax a PC when new, more powerful components will be out on 6 months or less - not even a billionaire would go to such extremes.)

 

[NeilF]

Except you either shoot rocks, or play the game. One of the two. You don't get to do both at once.

Not to mention, shooting rocks, as game play, is so absurdly boring I don't know how it's still a thing.

And you'd be able to even more of both if we could simply engineer with any unlocked engineer at any station? ie: Get rid of blue print pinning!

If you want to unlock an engineer or apply a side effect then off to the engineer you go... But otherwise let us do it anytime while we play the game!

 

[Shadowed]

This game was better before 2.1.

 

[Blackcompany]

And you'd be able to even more of both if we could simply engineer with any unlocked engineer at any station? ie: Get rid of blue print pinning!

If you want to unlock an engineer or apply a side effect then off to the engineer you go... But otherwise let us do it anytime while we play the game!

Agreed here, too. One BP. One. Why? Why not just tempted anything we have unlocked? Afraid we won't inflate the hours played stat sufficiently? Because there is no other answer.

 

[NeilF]

Agreed here, too. One BP. One. Why? Why not just tempted anything we have unlocked? Afraid we won't inflate the hours played stat sufficiently? Because there is no other answer.

It's as if the designers are reluctant to let go of things to do with their original design, even if its for the betterment of the overall outcome. Allowing CMDRs to Engineer with any unlock Engineer in any station would significantly improve the way peope Engineer IMHO. ie: More regularly as they play the game.


This reminds me of a small project I once worked on. We had some software which in one part had to do an installation and the developer involved wrote a wonderful progress bar that went across the screen showing the progress of the operation.

A year or so later myself and a colleague needed to add something to that program and we ended up scratching our heads... As one point, the code seemed to just spend X pointless seconds drawing a progress bar across the screen while it did... nothing! We went and spoke to the original developer. He had realised towards the end of the development the installation element actually wasn't required after all, but he couldn't stand the idea of the (now pointless) task bar being removed, so he left it in, achieving nothing!

This is what blue prints are... A throw back to a questionable initial design, which someone seemingly cannot bring themselves to let go of.

 

[GraXXoR]

Sorry but I have to both agree and disagree... confused?

Yes our ships performed fine without engineers for PvE, and yes they still do... BUT the moment you introduce upgrades to a ships combat ability, the status quo is broken, because human nature is such that "faster is better" - especially where combat is concerned, even against NPC's.

The way FDev and those who say "engineers isn't necessary" talk, you'd be forgiven for thinking they had never played a game where there was more than one weapon type or boosts to performance, either temporary via potions or permanent via upgrades.

Games have been using "stat boost" mechanics for a very long time - and no-one with half a brain would willingly ignore those if they are reasonably simple to obtain, and some players will go to extraordinary efforts for even a 1% boost - even in SOLO games.

The "stat boost" mechanic, however it's implemented has been the backbone of almost every game I can think of (and that's thousands) for over 30 years and yet you still claim "engineers isn't necessary".

Question - if it wasn't necessary, why did FDev spend quite a lot of time and no small amount of money developing it, and even more money to fix it?

In multiplayer games "stat boosts" of any kind become a necessity NOT A CHOICE, because even if YOU aren't that bothered about that 1% boost, you can bet your donkey that anyone you group up with DOES.

If it wasn't for the fact that the wing system in ED was so utterly broken - we would already have seen situations where a player wanted to join a random wing group, got "inspected" by the other members and booted out because he wasn't using engineered modules - or just as bad - the wrong modules, according to their "rules".

and this human behaviour has been seen on almost every multiplayer type game where you'll meet and be teamed with random players for more than 15 years.

and yet you still say "engineers isn't necessary"......

What you and them and FDev don't understand, even now, is THE PLAYERS MAKE THEM NECESSARY, because 90% of players are epeen stroking idiots who consider "stock gear" inferior.

The only way to make a "stat boost" mechanic unecessary is by not having one AT ALL; introduce even a 0.5% boost mechanic and the players will make having it a necessity, because that's what you humans do. The "sharp stick vs sharpER stick" mentality has been around since "upright apes" started using tools, but it seems FDev and others are only just learning about it now.... so sad.

Always have, always will; ad infinitum - ignore that rule and be forever chained to trying to balance it, just as FDev are now finding to thier cost.

Now that ED is going to get more "wings" related content, I'm saying right here right now (again**), that wing groups WILL KICK random players who don't have G5 engineered modules, and will even kick some who do, but the WRONG ONES; thus locking content for those players behind the G5 grind wall.

You mark my words - it's as guarenteed as the sun rising in the east.

** because I said this would happen when engineers idea was first mentioned.

This happened long before engineers... I remember when premium ammo synth was THE meta... I could fight someone in an identical ship and immediately know if they were using premium ammo. If not, it would be a whole lot easier to win. No matter how hard they tried, they would just not do as much damage as a build with premium synthed ammo..

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

So you're okay with driving around empty brown dust balls, shooting at rocks, being passed off as actual game play?

No wonder we can't get real content. Thanks for being part of the problem.

Your 'real content' isn't mine and vice versa. That's why there's so many different games these days. Not all people enjoy same things.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

This happened long before engineers... I remember when premium ammo synth was THE meta... I could fight someone in an identical ship and immediately know if they were using premium ammo. If not, it would be a whole lot easier to win. No matter how hard they tried, they would just not do as much damage as a build with premium synthed ammo..

At least the AI didn't use it. But with engineers you face buffed AI too.

"You don't need to engineer for PvE."- my rear. Prepare to see incresed kill times across your PvE gameplay with those unmodded ships. Playing vanilla is become more tedious, more unfun, less rewarding.

 

[babelfisch]

So you're okay with driving around empty brown dust balls, shooting at rocks, being passed off as actual game play?

No wonder we can't get real content. Thanks for being part of the problem.

Since you are the one not liking the game, aren't you your own problem?

 

[Stealthie]

In multiplayer games "stat boosts" of any kind become a necessity NOT A CHOICE, because even if YOU aren't that bothered about that 1% boost, you can bet your donkey that anyone you group up with DOES.

Great post. [up]

This part, in particular, is the entire issue in a nutshell.

Sure, PvP is the most obvious example of an "arms race" at work but it has an effect on every facet of the game.

If you're an explorer and somebody else can jump further than you, you're going to want (and I deliberately say "want" instead of "need") to have a similar capability.
If you're a trader and somebody can safely haul more stuff than you, you're going to want to level the playing field.
If you're a miner and somebody can shoot rocks faster than you, same thing.
Even if you just shoot at NPCs, if you have the choice of doing it slowly or quickly, most people will want to do it quickly.

Fundamentally, video-gamers are competitive people.
That should almost go without saying, given that (almost?) every video-game has some competitive element to it.
Even in a single-player game, we all want to craft the most powerful weapon, set the lap-record, explore places nobody else has got to or whatever.

That's why I think the new "leveling-up" system is silly though.
Nobody who wants, or has access to, G5 mod's is going to accept a G1 mod' and then trundle around the game until they think they "deserve" something better.
If there's a way to get the best thing immediately, people are going to use it.

 

[B1rdy]

Not everyone has the same idea of "fun".

Look, there are objective mechanics and rules a game has to follow to be considered "fun" by a majority of people. Even the video games industry has over 30 years of experience with..well video games to look back on. So there are established rules, even journalists base their critics on. Therefore your idea of "fun" or "playing your way" might be an edge case, the majority and reviewers would disagree with. Having that said, there is no way you can deny critique on the material gathering process on planets in ED. Objectively it is almost exclusively disjointed from other activities and not really compatible with Wings or Multicrew (of course). The mechanic per se is not considered challenging by the average player and reviewers. There is also no other real incentive to drive around on planets.

@the poster who thinks, mat gathering is sort of treasure hunt: It is, but without a map, with billions of planets to look for and the mechanics to search being "push a button for a couple of seconds" and "point your ship at the planet for several seconds".

As an example of another (coop) open world game there is Dying Light. If you want, you could do rather simple tasks in terms of game mechanics, but this game is challenging at least and the game never made me do such boring things in order to progress like Elite does. Elite puts overly complex game rules over very simple game mechanics and stretches those mechanics by unnecessary time sinks like travels to Engineers or RNG objects (USS or rocks on planets).

 

[frostypaw]

That's why I think the new "leveling-up" system is silly though.
Nobody who wants, or has access to, G5 mod's is going to accept a G1 mod' and then trundle around the game until they think they "deserve" something better.

But almost all games have some kind of levelling procedure?

If there's a way to get the best thing immediately, people are going to use it.

Ah well there's the problem. But the more they try and control that the more people wail and complain.

What's the alternative though? The way people have come to talk about this it really does seem like no upgrade options at all is the only acceptable solution as people apparently just can't control themselves.

 

[jasonbirder]

Prepare to see incresed kill times across your PvE gameplay

Oh no....the Horror!

 

[Stealthie]

What's the alternative though? The way people have come to talk about this it really does seem like no upgrade options at all is the only acceptable solution as people apparently just can't control themselves.

Well, if it was up to me, I'd make it all more narrative-driven.

You rock up at an engineer's base and have G1 access.
After doing, say, 5 mod's, you get a message from the engineer asking you to go and do something for them, such as killing a bunch of pirates attacking a platform or recovering stuff from a crashed ship.
You complete that, head back and you have G2 access.
A while later you get another message saying how well you dealt with the previous mission and if you are willing to do some other things, over a period of, say, a week then you'll be rewarded.
You complete that and get rewarded with G3 access.
Next up, you get a message saying that somebody/something is interfering in the engineer's work and if you can sort that problem out you'll be rewarded.
This would be a proper "boss fight" of some sort and might require planning, credits and gaining rank with other engineers before you are in a position to complete it successfully.
Complete it and you gain G4 access.
Finally, you'd be told that you're a true ally of the engineer and they want you to permanently resolve whatever's been causing problems for them.
This might take a whole month of accepting various missions which pop up intermittently.
At the end of that you get G5 access.

Course, that's just for one engineer.
There'd be nothing to stop you working with half a dozen, all at the same time, to speed up the process of unlocking all the engineers.
There would, however, come a point when you simply couldn't deal with enough requests within the specified time.


Thing is, suggest something like that and a lot of people will say "Hell, no. That's no fun!"
These are the same people who're cheering about the arrival of the mat' traders.
They're people who DO just want the quickest possible method of gaining access to all the cool toys so they can go and shoot people with them.

 

[frostypaw]

They're people who DO just want the quickest possible method of gaining access to all the cool toys so they can go and shoot people with them.

I was all twitchy reading that to say exactly this, but you got there first You're right - it would get in the way of pewpew so would be an unacceptable grind.

Shame though as that woulda been a nice plan, but it does make them a pretty epic mission in themselves and screw boss-fights.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

I was all twitchy reading that to say exactly this, but you got there first You're right - it would get in the way of pewpew so would be an unacceptable grind.

Shame though as that woulda been a nice plan, but it does make them a pretty epic mission in themselves and screw boss-fights.

It really depends on how you view the original Engineers expansion and its relationship to the game.

- is it a new set of quests to to complete?
- is it an equipment buff so that I can do what I like doing but better?

I think FD got caught somewhere in the middle.

 

[frostypaw]

It really depends on how you view the original Engineers expansion and it's relationship to the game.

- is it a new set of quests to to complete?
- is it an equipment buff so that I can do what I like doing but better?

I think FD got caught somewhere in the middle.

Sort of agree but I think FD were firmly on the buff side, while users wanted quests and them to be a new set of missions and content.

It's interesting talking to new players who found them organically without all the forum-based salt-load of expectation - they were mostly fine with it and enjoyed the occasional buffs alongside their play.

The forum long-term players who'd consumed most everything else the game had to offer who went hammer-and-tongs to bash them out in isolation had a very different experience, and sadly that "do all of one thing, then all of the next thing" mentality is repeated in most of the beginner's guides now

 

[sollisb]

A big problem is, that Engineers 1.0 were for the most part fixed and bug free.

The new system, like all previous additions to ED will be bugged and we'll have to wait another year for it to be fixed.

And, there is not one credible reason for this change.

The 'only' QoL changes required were less randomised mat collecting and more space. This huge change is unwarranted, and a complete waste of time that could have been spent on providing us, the players, with something new!

 

[Blackcompany]

A big problem is, that Engineers 1.0 were for the most part fixed and bug free.

The new system, like all previous additions to ED will be bugged and we'll have to wait another year for it to be fixed.

And, there is not one credible reason for this change.

The 'only' QoL changes required were less randomised mat collecting and more space. This huge change is unwarranted, and a complete waste of time that could have been spent on providing us, the players, with something new!

Well said. All we needed was no more RNG and as you said, storage.

Instead, we get this waste of Dev time.