General Exploration SRV death penalties are oppressive

[Schmack]

We can die. I die all the freaking time which is part of why I find this worth discussing.

The disparity I see is that once we have a carrier we can explore and be pretty much fine with dying, since it’s not a big deal to move our spawn point around and just do one system or one planet at a time.

This is more about the early game experience, though, before we can move our spawn point / turn in location. Like why is the early game harder than the late game? It’s upside down as far as expected progression.



Dying already is debilitating, because losing an SRV is a significant blow to the ability to explore & collect materials— not having an SRV makes it entirely impossible to explore some planets.

It moves right on to oppressive when wiping out all previous progress because you just didn’t understand the severity of the danger…. Which you cannot learn until you’re killed by it.

It’s the same problem that I see with there being no warning before entering a trespass zone. You just aren’t aware of the dangers and suddenly your ship is written off as scrap.

If we died I'd not get the message that I was recovered by the rescue rangers and end up in a detention center.

Redeployment

Redeployment of a commander occurs after that commander suffers the loss of their ship, or a critical injury while On Foot. When such catastrophes occur, the commander is quickly recovered by the Pilots Federation Rescue Rangers, allowing them to resume their careers in short order. Before a...

elite-dangerous.fandom.com

 

[yianniv]

When carrying many millions' worth of data, don't take unnecessary risks. Seems like common sense to me.

This.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

Losing everything on death is obviously too much, losing nothing on death is obviously equally ridiculous.

Exploration is an edge case here because you lose not only the money but first discovered status (except for first footfall since odyssey loves to add weird exceptions).

There's plenty of options to simply halve the profit from exploration if you die before turning the data in, but this might be one of those cases where it's best framed as a 50% not-dying bonus.

The risk/reward stuff here isn't really worth focusing on because it's usually a dumb mistake / not paying enough attention due to boredom that gets you killed and that's not the fun kind of risk or danger.

There's also all sorts of cool mechanics that could come from how you back up or store your exploration data in the cloud, but while those are actual problems for NASA/astronomers doing IT janitor stuff might not be part of the space explorer fantasy.

 

[metatheurgist]

it's really easy to die in an on-foot cz, multiple times per session - compared to on-ship combat where the chances to survive are orders of magnitude higher

Nah, it isn't. And really it encourages use of Frontline to get back to the station and cash in before each CZ. If you want to use all the tricks to spam CZs "quickly", then hey, better not die. It was really an unnecessary change.

 

[Frankymole]

This is also the reason many explorers tend to try and fit 2 SRVs - just in case.

Weird how you can print new fighters in your fighter hangar but can't synthesise new SRVs in your vehicle hangar. Even though fighters are more complex, being able to be remotely controlled.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

Nah, it isn't. And really it encourages use of Frontline to get back to the station and cash in before each CZ. If you want to use all the tricks to spam CZs "quickly", then hey, better not die. It was really an unnecessary change.

The safest way to do on-foot CZs is also the fastest with spawn-killing everyone with AoE damage from dual rocket G5 launchers with stowed reloading as soon as they drop. Can't get shot if they don't get a shot off before you kill them.

Spending time to fly back to the station to cash in when a CZ takes 10-15min and a back and forth trip takes longer than that would mean that if you decide to do on-foot CZs you'd spend most of your gameplay time flying back and forth to a planet. This is possibly the intended gameplay because you can't reset a CZ without relogging inside a SRV (or recalling your ship and walking out to it).

The only thing on losing combat bonds on death achieve would achieve is making less players want to engage in it.

It's actually worth viewing the exploration data loss in the same way - what does it do and how well does it do it? Would exploration being completely risk free make any of the current explorers ragequit or drive away anyone new?

No, but having something significant to lose enhances those moments when the fear of the unknown kicks in, you encounter some thing you haven't seen before or are in a situation you've never been in before and don't know if it can just instantly kill your paper thing exploration ship without warning because that's how Elite can be sometimes. It's never really exactly like that but it's the feeling that matters.

I don't think anyone thinks about how much credits in the moment and it happens either during the post-death moment of ultimate regret or before, when making the decision to not go into a risky situation at all because you got too many credits on the line. Post death losing the credits is just rubbing it in. Pre-death, deciding to divert from a potentially dangerous activity because of the credit loss is bad too - the game should push players to take risks that result in fun and exciting adventures/moments for them (to Elites credit, not showing how much explo data you have stored up actually helps here, but that's not intentional).

There's some BGS considerations - being able to stack up a ton of exploration data and turning it in over a longer period of time would discourage you from doing other, riskier activities until you've handed in the data. Is that in any way good? If exploration data loss would be removed would it be best to force players to hand in all their data at once or not at all?

 

[Schmack]

Weird how you can print new fighters in your fighter hangar but can't synthesise new SRVs in your vehicle hangar. Even though fighters are more complex, being able to be remotely controlled.

I don't think SRVs were meant to be used in combat necessarily. They were made to scan data ports, take out an occasional sentry and shoot rocks. Fighters were meant to fight, so it stands to reason their hangar would have the ability to replicate one. They should be exponentially more expensive to outfit but I've never done one so no idea. Also, I am not sure you can synth hull like you can on SRVs.

As for exploration data loss, if an explorer never made it back home, they'd lose their stories of their venture, but even if someone died on Mars, their data would have likely made it back to Earth. That's today. The fact I can turn in data on a carrier (a ship) means the narrative of being a lone explorer in the vastness of space needing to traverse the obstacle course of goids and double stars isn't really necessary. All they are missing is a carrier.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

The safest way to do on-foot CZs is also the fastest with spawn-killing everyone with AoE damage from dual rocket G5 launchers with stowed reloading as soon as they drop. Can't get shot if they don't get a shot off before you kill them.

Spending time to fly back to the station to cash in when a CZ takes 10-15min and a back and forth trip takes longer than that would mean that if you decide to do on-foot CZs you'd spend most of your gameplay time flying back and forth to a planet. This is possibly the intended gameplay because you can't reset a CZ without relogging inside a SRV (or recalling your ship and walking out to it).

The only thing on losing combat bonds on death achieve would achieve is making less players want to engage in it.

It's actually worth viewing the exploration data loss in the same way - what does it do and how well does it do it? Would exploration being completely risk free make any of the current explorers ragequit or drive away anyone new?

No, but having something significant to lose enhances those moments when the fear of the unknown kicks in, you encounter some thing you haven't seen before or are in a situation you've never been in before and don't know if it can just instantly kill your paper thing exploration ship without warning because that's how Elite can be sometimes. It's never really exactly like that but it's the feeling that matters.

I don't think anyone thinks about how much credits in the moment and it happens either during the post-death moment of ultimate regret or before, when making the decision to not go into a risky situation at all because you got too many credits on the line. Post death losing the credits is just rubbing it in. Pre-death, deciding to divert from a potentially dangerous activity because of the credit loss is bad too - the game should push players to take risks that result in fun and exciting adventures/moments for them (to Elites credit, not showing how much explo data you have stored up actually helps here, but that's not intentional).

There's some BGS considerations - being able to stack up a ton of exploration data and turning it in over a longer period of time would discourage you from doing other, riskier activities until you've handed in the data. Is that in any way good? If exploration data loss would be removed would it be best to force players to hand in all their data at once or not at all?

I think there's a more logical aspect to this that I'm struggling with when it comes to SRVs. The OP has missed various warnings about the health of the vehicle as well as even seeing the health at 2%, which anyone who has driven an SRV for 100m will know that's one bump from an explosion. However, there is the question of why you're bringing the data generated from ship board instruments and you're sellotaping them to the SRV. Why is the data coming with you?

From the point of a risk/reward measure, yeah, if anything it is stifling any potential further exploration gameplay as who is going to do something risky for, say, 10 million credits when you have 100 million+ on the line if it goes wrong.

I wouldn't worry about the BGS impact though. I remember times where I've stored up to 50 million in exploration data and handed that in over several days. There was no perception of risk with that as I was in a 3000mj shielded FdL during that time doing other BGS activities.

This sort of suggestion has been floating round the forum for years and the main argument against has been parity with traders and combat pilots who lost everything on death. Nowadays the trader can make back their losses in a single delivery and combat pilots get to keep their bonds.

 

[Greasetrap42]

I consider death penalties for exploration a bug because they are obviously not working as intended. They are supposedly to make the game more thrilling, but they do the exact opposite. They prevent us from doing anything risky which makes the game, simply put, very boring.

Death penalties are obviously not a bug. You might not like the design, but they function as designed.

Personally I like the risk element in the game. When carrying a large amount of "valuables" it is a bad idea to take unnecessary risks. Whether it is exploration data, cargo, or a bunch of completed missions not yet handed in. When stacking missions I try not to get exploded, because that can represent a very big loss.

With a bit of practice you learn how to do non-combat activities without getting killed. Even PvE combat... as you get good the risk goes way down because you learn when to put away your guns and run away.

Without risk this game would be waaaay to easy and very boring.

 

[SteveWW57]

Am I missing "death" in a ground CZ loses accumulated stuff? I am sure that nothing is lost.

Steve

 

[Frankymole]

As for exploration data loss, if an explorer never made it back home, they'd lose their stories of their venture, but even if someone died on Mars, their data would have likely made it back to Earth. That's today. The fact I can turn in data on a carrier (a ship) means the narrative of being a lone explorer in the vastness of space needing to traverse the obstacle course of goids and double stars isn't really necessary. All they are missing is a carrier.

You can recover data boxes in space, from debris. Of course since they're someone else's data, you only get a nominal recovery fee.

 

[Frankymole]

Am I missing "death" in a ground CZ loses accumulated stuff? I am sure that nothing is lost.

Steve

Only exobiology and exploration data, not materials (including "data" materials).

 

[aRJay]

Losing everything on death is obviously too much, losing nothing on death is obviously equally ridiculous.

Exploration is an edge case here because you lose not only the money but first discovered status (except for first footfall since odyssey loves to add weird exceptions).

There's plenty of options to simply halve the profit from exploration if you die before turning the data in, but this might be one of those cases where it's best framed as a 50% not-dying bonus.

Universal Cartographics: Can we help you?
Commander: Yes you can pay me 500,000,000 credits.
Universal Cartographics: What for?
Commander: That is half the value of the exploration data I lost in the incident.
Universal Cartographics: You want us to pay you for not providing us with any data because you lost the data you say you had?
Universal Cartographics: Next!

The risk/reward stuff here isn't really worth focusing on because it's usually a dumb mistake / not paying enough attention due to boredom that gets you killed and that's not the fun kind of risk or danger.

There's also all sorts of cool mechanics that could come from how you back up or store your exploration data in the cloud, but while those are actual problems for NASA/astronomers doing IT janitor stuff might not be part of the space explorer fantasy.

 

[Schmack]

You can recover data boxes in space, from debris. Of course since they're someone else's data, you only get a nominal recovery fee.

That would be a very interesting concept, go back out 15000 LY to see if you can recover your data.

 

[metatheurgist]

It's funny how people want to be able to recover data, but only if it's them and if someone else gets it it's only a nominal fee. We already have data caches in space, just pretend it's someone else's data - there's your nominal fee.

 

[St0rmFury]

Pretty sure this has been suggested before, but how about insuring all data/bonds/bounties/etc?

That way it still presents a certain amount of risk because the more data/bonds/bounties/etc you hoard, the more credits you need to have at hand to be able to pay the insurance.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

Universal Cartographics: Can we help you?
Commander: Yes you can pay me 500,000,000 credits.
Universal Cartographics: What for?
Commander: That is half the value of the exploration data I lost in the incident.
Universal Cartographics: You want us to pay you for not providing us with any data because you lost the data you say you had?
Universal Cartographics: Next!

I was picturing the reduced reward as backup recovery fees or reduced resolution on the data due to losing the original copies and the hi-def stuff being too big to back up fully.

 

[Shadowsnog]

and how about just storing the exploration data, that exploration that you did with your ship, on your ship. so that when you destroy your srv, and not your ship, the data (on your ship) will not get destroyed as well, when the ship doesnt get destroyed?
explained well enough?
does that sound fair? does that sound logic? does that sound realistic?

 

[varonica]

does that sound fair? does that sound logic? does that sound realistic?

You're dead, your ship is abandoned thousands of LY from the nearest UC office........ok there's some seriously funny magic going on when you appear in it back in orbit but you did indeed die and by all logic, reason and realism your ship is now drifting helpless and alone in deep space, but it's a game and they don't want to drag you all the way back to the bubble because you lost your SRV, it's actually a reward re-appearing in your ship instead of back in the last station you docked in, and you want all your data kept as well?

 

[gorgofdoom]

You can see the trespass zones on the radar, the problem is how are they supposed to know you are going to enter the trespass zone? Do they just start spamming out warning repeatedly to any and every ship that comes near. I mean, there you are approaching a trespass zone and get a warning, you turn away, then turn back, they warn you again, and over and over again every time you reduce the distance between you and the trespass zone? That could get tiring very quickly, specially when you can see the trespass zone on your radar.

So i've re-approached the crashed ship in question and taken video of the process so i could really look at it. There is definitively no visual warning before entering the restricted area, on foot or in the ship-- on radar or otherwise. I crossed the audio warning line 3 times in my ship about 850m from the POI-- there was nothing to be seen on the radar. In the suit i crossed the audio warning line twice then proceeded to walk another 200m or so before receiving a bounty where there was also no visual warning. (Maybe there should be a warning on radar, and this is not working correctly?)

Concerning the audio warning: it only played one of the two times I crossed the invisible line on foot so perhaps it didn't play at all the first time around? but i couldn't say with certainty. My guess is i simply didn't hear it over the explosive sound of my anaconda's engines, landed within the audio warning perimeter, then walked the last 100m on foot to be surprised. or maybe i had simply turned the voice volume off as i'll do to listen to audiobooks.

After analyzing this experience again I would suggest a visual warning in every mode of play that indicates if going to a place would be trespassing. Maybe it would be best presented in the contacts list, changing the color of the line item or provide with a distinct icon, to prevent people wasting their time approaching well within weapons range before the policy is made apparent. Displaying a mostly transparent red wall where the bounties will begin to apply would also be very helpful, if maybe unsightly.