General Exploration SRV death penalties are oppressive

No warning?

  • You get to see a red box around the trespass zone on the radar before you enter. In most cultures red is an indication of danger / prohibition.
  • You get a visual warning on the screen when you actually enter - with a reasonable amount of time to exit before anything attacks you
  • You get an audio warning on the screen when you actually enter - with a reasonable amount of time to exit before anything attacks you

Not sure what you want in addition - maybe you could say.
There is no red box afaik-- no visual warning before the bounty is applied at all. The only time i've ever seen a red box on radar is with the SRV which I wasn't carrying at the time. in fact the only visual indicator here appears after the bounty is already applied.

Source: https://youtu.be/mQaCnTgbzRo


Source: https://youtu.be/rsFPjuDbMMg


As for what i'd like to see I said it above, but to say a little more: adding an attribute to the contacts list for places that are trespass zones would both:

1) inform deaf players about trespass zones before they enter it

2) allow the playerbase at large to know if you have to break the law to go somewhere -- how to say ... without having to approach within 1km range before we can know.

I'm sure Fdev could do this. The contacts list icon for besieged settlements & stations is glorious.

(i suppose i'll go put this in bug reports)
 
Last edited:
You're dead, your ship is abandoned thousands of LY from the nearest UC office........ok there's some seriously funny magic going on when you appear in it back in orbit but you did indeed die and by all logic, reason and realism your ship is now drifting helpless and alone in deep space, but it's a game and they don't want to drag you all the way back to the bubble because you lost your SRV, it's actually a reward re-appearing in your ship instead of back in the last station you docked in, and you want all your data kept as well?
1st of all you dont die in remlok suits. straight up false premise.
if i die 100ls of the nearest UC office should then the utcome be different?
by all logic reason and realism when my srv loses fuel i walk back the 300m to my ship. instead the srv blows up and im teleported to the orbit with loss of all data.
so what happened to the data? did i get robbed by rescue rangers? whats the argument really here?


there is a lot of funny magic going on because its a game.
game that should be fun. game that can be in a pretty abyssmal state sometimes. lately ive not even been playing because theres always some kind of feature i have to relog for or wait or evade or bypass or some kind of spaghetti voodoo going on screwing up the experience and i just dont have the time nor patience to deal with it.
you can make a bil per hour with a laser in a spire group, let the explorer store the data on the ship.
id argue for losing the srv/artemis data when you lose srv, and losing space exploration data when you actually lose the ship. but i dont see such a thing to really be implemented, so i find no loss of data on srv death a good way to go.

sometimes it really looks like some older players would instantly immolate and crumble to dust the moment this game would be a bit more friendly and accessible smh
 
Pre-death, deciding to divert from a potentially dangerous activity because of the credit loss is bad too - the game should push players to take risks that result in fun and exciting adventures/moments for them
This, I think, is the key point. Elite gives players full choice over what they do next, so they can always choose to pick activities with guaranteed success (for whatever combination of ship and skill they have, above a very low floor).

Given that the player can guarantee success, any consequence for failure beyond "you don't get any reward for that activity" strongly incentivises never taking any risks (and player advice tends in that direction too) - the guaranteed success option can very easily end up with a higher expected payout even without loss aversion.

In that context, things which can cause unexpected failure have received numerous complaints from the player base - the Scythes showing up outside direct Thargoid territory, or the ambushes in what looked like a "safe" signal source, etc. - and have been toned down or removed fairly quickly. Which, again, rational in the moment from the players, probably not good for the game overall.

There's some BGS considerations - being able to stack up a ton of exploration data and turning it in over a longer period of time would discourage you from doing other, riskier activities until you've handed in the data. Is that in any way good? If exploration data loss would be removed would it be best to force players to hand in all their data at once or not at all?
There's an odd asymmetry between the various BGS pools as it is:
- trade cannot be significantly deferred
- bounties/bonds can be deferred indefinitely, and even handed in to a different system, though all deferred bounties have to be cashed at once [1]
- exploration data can be deferred indefinitely and cashed in gradually and/or across multiple systems
- missions cannot be significantly deferred
- murder cannot be deferred at all [1]
- exobiology has no BGS impact of any sort at all.
So changing how one of them works shouldn't really matter too much - it'll change tactics for the highly optimised groups (they'll adapt) but shouldn't have much effect on normal BGS fluctuations or equilibrium system influence levels.


I suspect the original reason that bounties and bonds and exploration data are vouchers rather than the instant payout almost every other game uses, is that the DDF-stage designs mentioned being able to trade them between players. That was never implemented - and indeed it's hard to see why it would be useful, with the rest of the game as it is - but may be why it works as it does.

Changing to have them just credit your account instantly would do the following:
- bounties and bonds couldn't be moved between systems (or in wars, between days): affects BGS strategy [2], would stop people stockpiling for CGs (or doing the activity in a completely different system with "better" hunting)
- the cost of death in exploration would be reduced to "you're now back at your previous station" which is still potentially pretty big, and exploration would disappear as a BGS effect entirely (which might cancel out [2] somewhat)



[1] There's also an asymmetry here between the Political BGS and the Thargoid War. In the Political BGS, an enemy kill gives you a deferrable and losable voucher, which does nothing until handed in. In the Thargoid War, the enemy kill is the thing which has the effect on the system state, and the voucher (which you can't lose) does nothing other than convert to money later.
[2] Unfortunately in a way which strengthens the position of non-Anarchy system controllers even further, which is probably undesirable from the "dynamic galaxy" perspective.
 
sometimes it really looks like some older players would instantly immolate and crumble to dust the moment this game would be a bit more friendly and accessible smh
Ok, remove any possibility of deaths then, in the name of "newb friendly". It is easy enough, they removed way too much risks and consequences.
How about removing heat or impact damage?
 
Death penalties are obviously not a bug. You might not like the design, but they function as designed.

Personally I like the risk element in the game. When carrying a large amount of "valuables" it is a bad idea to take unnecessary risks. Whether it is exploration data, cargo, or a bunch of completed missions not yet handed in. When stacking missions I try not to get exploded, because that can represent a very big loss.

With a bit of practice you learn how to do non-combat activities without getting killed. Even PvE combat... as you get good the risk goes way down because you learn when to put away your guns and run away.

Without risk this game would be waaaay to easy and very boring.
Function as designed? If the design is to add excitement, the penalty takes away all motivation to seek excitement. This fact alone makes it seem non-effective at best.
Now from my point of view this does not add excitement in the way Fdev wants. Consider that people are more likely to remember exciting events. if you give people a shock while good things are happening: then they're likely to remember the good stuff. conversely, accentuating negative events will make people remember the upset.

Think about it. Do you want to encourage bad memories or good ones? It's like Fdev is setting us up for the most spectacular failures and strongest negative memories they can manage.

I'm not asking for zero risk. I'm asking for something in-between : let us only lose what we have accrued in the SRV since we were last on the ship. I'd even suggest any physical materials collected to be included in the losses, but excluding transmittable data. I can understand if a robot from the ship or hyperspace bodysnachers (rescue rangers?) won't also collect my pile of rocks; it would fit within my suspension of disbelief. If we lose the ship we should lose everything accrued since we last docked with a station, as it is now but excluding data, but again i'd also suggest adding raw/manufactured engineering parts to these losses as painful as that would be.

That said i'll go down the rabbit hole a little and wonder why any type of transmittable data is lost. We could just be given the choice of where to turn it in. If i can have a real time voice call to my buddy who's in Colonia, 22,000 ly away, i should definately be able to send star charts to my secured cloud server via station relay that's only 1000ly away.
 
Last edited:
Welcome to ED, where loitering is punishable by death and your vehicle blows up when it's out of fuel.
But bizarrely since Odyssey, the SRV's engine remains fully functional when out of fuel.
There would probably be a lot less "accidents" if the old behaviour was restored; an SRV that won't move is a much more noticeable indicator of being out of fuel than a small oxygen countdown timer.
 
So i've re-approached the crashed ship in question and taken video of the process so i could really look at it. There is definitively no visual warning before entering the restricted area, on foot or in the ship-- on radar or otherwise. I crossed the audio warning line 3 times in my ship about 850m from the POI-- there was nothing to be seen on the radar. In the suit i crossed the audio warning line twice then proceeded to walk another 200m or so before receiving a bounty where there was also no visual warning. (Maybe there should be a warning on radar, and this is not working correctly?)

Concerning the audio warning: it only played one of the two times I crossed the invisible line on foot so perhaps it didn't play at all the first time around? but i couldn't say with certainty. My guess is i simply didn't hear it over the explosive sound of my anaconda's engines, landed within the audio warning perimeter, then walked the last 100m on foot to be surprised. or maybe i had simply turned the voice volume off as i'll do to listen to audiobooks.

After analyzing this experience again I would suggest a visual warning in every mode of play that indicates if going to a place would be trespassing. Maybe it would be best presented in the contacts list, changing the color of the line item or provide with a distinct icon, to prevent people wasting their time approaching well within weapons range before the policy is made apparent. Displaying a mostly transparent red wall where the bounties will begin to apply would also be very helpful, if maybe unsightly.
And ironically if you enter the trespass zone of an impact site on foot (crashed nav beacon, skimmer protecting it) you get the audio warning but then no bounty, no fine, and no shots fired at you - unless you fire first. You can steal the data and components in full view of the skimmer and waltz away, clean as a whistle.
 
But bizarrely since Odyssey, the SRV's engine remains fully functional when out of fuel.
There would probably be a lot less "accidents" if the old behaviour was restored; an SRV that won't move is a much more noticeable indicator of being out of fuel than a small oxygen countdown timer.
Presumably the fuel powers a small reactor which powers a battery which stores a charge... doesn't explain the air thing though.
 
Presumably the fuel powers a small reactor which powers a battery which stores a charge... doesn't explain the air thing though.
reactor which also directly powers fans, compressors, scrubbers, condensers and all the hundreds of other things required to provide breathable air.
 
I don't think anyone thinks about how much credits in the moment and it happens either during the post-death moment of ultimate regret or before, when making the decision to not go into a risky situation at all because you got too many credits on the line. Post death losing the credits is just rubbing it in. Pre-death, deciding to divert from a potentially dangerous activity because of the credit loss is bad too - the game should push players to take risks that result in fun and exciting adventures/moments for them (to Elites credit, not showing how much explo data you have stored up actually helps here, but that's not intentional).

In my own case, i dont really care about credits when dying during an exploration trip
What really stings is losing visited system data and everything implied by that (dicoveries and name tags for first discoveries, the ability to see the system map for the visited system, etc)

Even in the bubble, it really miffs me if i lose "exploration data" when i die. I dont really care about missions, credits, etc.
But losing the "visibility" in the systems i already visited and full fss-ed but didnt got the chance to sell the data before dying? Grrr... It kills me again.
 
It's funny how people want to be able to recover data, but only if it's them and if someone else gets it it's only a nominal fee. 😄 We already have data caches in space, just pretend it's someone else's data - there's your nominal fee. 😛
I'd bet people who lost their data would prefer the rank and 1st discoveries over the credits if given a choice. Then 1st discoveries over rank if given another. If black boxes were like loot boxes in that they held data materials and you don't know what you're going to get, that would be more interesting than rinse and repeat black box, hostile ship, etc.
 
Last edited:
This thread just serves to highlight the difficulty in changing long standing mechanics (die and you lose any unclaimed bounties/bonds/data). The fact that it is possible for me to charge round running and gunning in a high CZ with no regards to tactics aside from "make enemy dead fast", die 3, 4 maybe 5 times and still come out with 10 million credits makes it impossible for me to categorically say explorers should lose everything.
 
What actually happens when you run out of fuel in a SRV then? You retain full control but it blows up like during a self destruct?
Life support countdown activates and it blows up when it reaches zero. It's still fully drivable, I'm not sure about the weapons or the turret.
In legacy it goes dead, the only thing you can do is synth more fuel.
 
Function as designed? If the design is to add excitement, the penalty takes away all motivation to seek excitement. This fact alone makes it seem non-effective at best.
Now from my point of view this does not add excitement in the way Fdev wants. Consider that people are more likely to remember exciting events. if you give people a shock while good things are happening: then they're likely to remember the good stuff. conversely, accentuating negative events will make people remember the upset.

Think about it. Do you want to encourage bad memories or good ones? It's like Fdev is setting us up for the most spectacular failures and strongest negative memories they can manage.

I'm not asking for zero risk. I'm asking for something in-between : let us only lose what we have accrued in the SRV since we were last on the ship. I'd even suggest any physical materials collected to be included in the losses, but excluding transmittable data. I can understand if a robot from the ship or hyperspace bodysnachers (rescue rangers?) won't also collect my pile of rocks; it would fit within my suspension of disbelief. If we lose the ship we should lose everything accrued since we last docked with a station, as it is now but excluding data, but again i'd also suggest adding raw/manufactured engineering parts to these losses as painful as that would be.

That said i'll go down the rabbit hole a little and wonder why any type of transmittable data is lost. We could just be given the choice of where to turn it in. If i can have a real time voice call to my buddy who's in Colonia, 22,000 ly away, i should definately be able to send star charts to my secured cloud server via station relay that's only 1000ly away.
You make some valid points, cmdr, but I don't agree with all of them.
In one of my exploration journeys from Colonia towards the west of the galaxy (that was before Fleet Carriers) I crashed my flimsy anaconda on an eager to meet me high gravity planet and lost a week of exploration data. After the mandatory disbelief, curses and frustration, I decided that the time I spent exploring before the crash was valuable, and I didn't want to lose my experience (and ELWs) to oblivion. Luckily my travels were uploaded to ESDM, so I repeated my journey.
What I got in return is a double sense of accomplishment and experience, to compensate for the embarrassment of miscalculating my engine power upon descend.
I think that failure is a path to experience. I don't welcome it or seek it, but I try to see it as an opportunity to better myself. If my data was secure upon my crash, maybe I wouldn't respect my ship and its limitations as I do now.
As a memory, it's bittersweet, and I cherish it.
There a lot of mechanics I'd like changed in this game, restoration of exploration data isn't one of them.
 
I'd bet people who lost their data would prefer the rank and 1st discoveries over the credits if given a choice.
Rank is of course another area with interesting inconsistencies:
- trade, exploration [1], and exobiology: you need to survive and hand-in at the station to get the rank
- CQC: you don't need to survive, but you do need to stay in the match until the end to get the rank
- combat, mercenary: you get the rank points instantly for the kill, whether you survive to cash in the voucher (or even whether the kill gives a voucher) is irrelevant

[1] With the exception of the smallish amount of exploration rank you gain the first time you find a new-to-you material, which is applied instantly.
 
You make some valid points, cmdr, but I don't agree with all of them.
In one of my exploration journeys from Colonia towards the west of the galaxy (that was before Fleet Carriers) I crashed my flimsy anaconda on an eager to meet me high gravity planet and lost a week of exploration data. After the mandatory disbelief, curses and frustration, I decided that the time I spent exploring before the crash was valuable, and I didn't want to lose my experience (and ELWs) to oblivion. Luckily my travels were uploaded to ESDM, so I repeated my journey.
What I got in return is a double sense of accomplishment and experience, to compensate for the embarrassment of miscalculating my engine power upon descend.
I think that failure is a path to experience. I don't welcome it or seek it, but I try to see it as an opportunity to better myself. If my data was secure upon my crash, maybe I wouldn't respect my ship and its limitations as I do now.
As a memory, it's bittersweet, and I cherish it.
There a lot of mechanics I'd like changed in this game, restoration of exploration data isn't one of them.
Yes, there's always something to be gained from learning from one's mistakes. A silver lining, if you will.

I once played while fatigued, and needed to suicide-winder back from Colonia to the Bubble. Only, I forgot to change out of my fully-engineered Krait Phantom, with all the trimmings. So I blew that ship up via self-destruct and permanently lost her. But "rebuilding" her twin, to the topmost pixel of every engineering roll, gave me a new appreciation for the mats gathering journey and which engineers were best to rank up, etc, which stood me in good stead for my next new account CMDR. And I enjoyed the ship far more having "earnt" her twice. I also check more carefully before hitting self-destruct!

(I did at least sell my exploration data before hitting destruct, though.)
 
Rank is of course another area with interesting inconsistencies:
- trade, exploration [1], and exobiology: you need to survive and hand-in at the station to get the rank
- CQC: you don't need to survive, but you do need to stay in the match until the end to get the rank
- combat, mercenary: you get the rank points instantly for the kill, whether you survive to cash in the voucher (or even whether the kill gives a voucher) is irrelevant

[1] With the exception of the smallish amount of exploration rank you gain the first time you find a new-to-you material, which is applied instantly.
I guess the latter is Codex rather than Universal Cartographics. Maybe in the case of UC, the company has a reciprocal deal with the Pilot's Federation rank-givers.

Who is it who maintains the Codex? The Pilot's Federation?
 
Top Bottom