External View [A definitive discussion]

[-o-]

the game is intended to be played from the perspective of your character. This means that traditional third-person views are out, and any potential external views will have to be filtered through that perspective.

FD have already "forced" everyone to use an external view in their outfitting section. Perhaps they did not believe there was enough scope in the HUD to allow for it, but that is definitely a third person view and not from the perspective of your character.

Having said that, I do agree with you, but I will change your emphasis...

The game is intended to be played from the perspective of your character.

When you are in an external view, you are not so much 'playing' the game but pausing to admiring its beauty. These views have no HUDS, frames or anything to spoil the view - thats the whole point.

In this fan video , at no stage would you say Neon Raven was actively playing the game even though he was playing the game. He was effectively in spectator mode, attempting to position himself in a manner to capture beautiful scenery free of cockpit infrastructure. The game made it very difficult for him to do this and he was forced to take these shots from his canopy view, where the fewer visual obstructions exist - thus emulating an external view.

Even earlier, FD released similar videos themseves which clearly demonstrate how much more beautiful the game is when seen from an external viewpoint. This video is important because it summarises this entire topic well.

The video comprises of 5 scenes, all taken with from an external viewpoint.

The 3 frames above involve exploring and trading, and it is here that I believe external views would be beneficial in improving a gamers experience by heightening the visual beauty of the game. That is, the scenery is not needlessly interupted or destroyed by the cockpit framework. Immersion for some is improved, and for others, remains unchanged as they would not select this view anyway as it is a choice - thus, there are no disavantages here to anyone, but there are advantages to some. A no lose situation.

The next 2 frames above involve combat scenarios. Now here, things are completely different. Although the shots look more beautiful than if they had a superimposed cockpit, I believe there is a disadvantage in engaging an external view while in such combat scenarios because there is no time or purpose to appreciate visual beauty in the midst of a fight - which is different to you watching someone else (as in this video). In combat mode, with the weaponry, strategy and manovering to worry about, not many players will be stopping to smell the flowers.

No-one is trying to force anyone to use external views (apart from the pre-mentioned outfitting screen). Immersion for ED remains exactly the same for an individual as the same cockpit view remains in place. All people are asking for is an option to select an external view.

The beauty of Elite was that it could be played in so many different ways by different people with different playing styles. If you didn't like combat, you could focus on trading and still get the same pleasure from the same game because if offered you that flexibility - that choice.

 

[Riedquat]

Excellent post by -O- , completely agree.

 

[Tinman]

FD have already "forced" everyone to use an external view in their outfitting section. Perhaps they did not believe there was enough scope in the HUD to allow for it, but that is definitely a third person view and not from the perspective of your character.

It's placeholder content. Most likely we haven't seen the real station UI yet. Maybe we'll see the real UI in Alpha 4 since trading will be there. The real UI will still be done "from the eyes of your commander".

The station and outfitting is work in progress. We are looking at various ways to keep the concept of you "being there" (as you might have guessed, it's a fairly major thing for us), but we're not in a position to make concrete statements just yet.

(Emphasis mine.)

 

[NeilF]

FD have already "forced" everyone to use an external view in their outfitting section. Perhaps they did not believe there was enough scope in the HUD to allow for it, but that is definitely a third person view and not from the perspective of your character.

Having said that, I do agree with you, but I will change your emphasis...

The game is intended to be played from the perspective of your character.

Spoiler

When you are in an external view, you are not so much 'playing' the game but pausing to admiring its beauty. These views have no HUDS, frames or anything to spoil the view - thats the whole point.

In this fan video , at no stage would you say Neon Raven was actively playing the game even though he was playing the game. He was effectively in spectator mode, attempting to position himself in a manner to capture beautiful scenery free of cockpit infrastructure. The game made it very difficult for him to do this and he was forced to take these shots from his canopy view, where the fewer visual obstructions exist - thus emulating an external view.

Even earlier, FD released similar videos themseves which clearly demonstrate how much more beautiful the game is when seen from an external viewpoint. This video is important because it summarises this entire topic well.

The video comprises of 5 scenes, all taken with from an external viewpoint.

The 3 frames above involve exploring and trading, and it is here that I believe external views would be beneficial in improving a gamers experience by heightening the visual beauty of the game. That is, the scenery is not needlessly interupted or destroyed by the cockpit framework. Immersion for some is improved, and for others, remains unchanged as they would not select this view anyway as it is a choice - thus, there are no disavantages here to anyone, but there are advantages to some. A no lose situation.

The next 2 frames above involve combat scenarios. Now here, things are completely different. Although the shots look more beautiful than if they had a superimposed cockpit, I believe there is a disadvantage in engaging an external view while in such combat scenarios because there is no time or purpose to appreciate visual beauty in the midst of a fight - which is different to you watching someone else (as in this video). In combat mode, with the weaponry, strategy and manovering to worry about, not many players will be stopping to smell the flowers.

No-one is trying to force anyone to use external views (apart from the pre-mentioned outfitting screen). Immersion for ED remains exactly the same for an individual as the same cockpit view remains in place. All people are asking for is an option to select an external view.

The beauty of Elite was that it could be played in so many different ways by different people with different playing styles. If you didn't like combat, you could focus on trading and still get the same pleasure from the same game because if offered you that flexibility - that choice.

Very nicely put!

I'm more than happy to play the game from the cockpit, but I want to be able to also enjoy the game from an external view from time to time to get further enjoyment/atmosphere out of it.

 

[Mephane]

The game is intended to be played from the perspective of your character.

When you are in an external view, you are not so much 'playing' the game but pausing to admiring its beauty. These views have no HUDS, frames or anything to spoil the view - thats the whole point.

Spot on. I've been saying this several times, I would like a form of external view to admire the scenery as well as my ship, not to fly around like that.

 

[-o-]

It's placeholder content. Most likely we haven't seen the real station UI yet. Maybe we'll see the real UI in Alpha 4 since trading will be there. The real UI will still be done "from the eyes of your commander".

Thats a fairly detailed placeholder.

I see what they are trying to do, which is make us feel like we "are there" by not breaking the viewpoint from anything which we would not naturally see as a commander.

We have had the old game vs sim debate many times, and from my count, the "this is a game, not a sim" has usually won out. It is more important people enjoy the game than forcing them to play in a psudo-simulated environment.

It will be interesting what they come up with to maintain this for the trading/missions screens. In a more flexible game, a full screen dedicated for such tasks (like in previous Elite games) would be the most efficient way, but here we are restricted to what we can see in the HUD/monitors, or through the cockpit screens - a greatly reduced FOV area.

I did always find it difficult to read my 6" GPS screen in the car unless I detached it from its mount and physically moved it closer. Perhaps they have something like this in mind. Another way would be to have a large external screen in the hanger bay itself. Then when you toggled between options, you could just see that screen through your cockpit.

We will find out soon enough.

 

[Tinman]

Thats a fairly detailed placeholder.

I see what they are trying to do, which is make us feel like we "are there" by not breaking the viewpoint from anything which we would not naturally see as a commander.

We have had the old game vs sim debate many times, and from my count, the "this is a game, not a sim" has usually won out. It is more important people enjoy the game than forcing them to play in a psudo-simulated environment.

It will be interesting what they come up with to maintain this for the trading/missions screens. In a more flexible game, a full screen dedicated for such tasks (like in previous Elite games) would be the most efficient way, but here we are restricted to what we can see in the HUD/monitors, or through the cockpit screens - a greatly reduced FOV area.

I did always find it difficult to read my 6" GPS screen in the car unless I detached it from its mount and physically moved it closer. Perhaps they have something like this in mind. Another way would be to have a large external screen in the hanger bay itself. Then when you toggled between options, you could just see that screen through your cockpit.

We will find out soon enough.

The station UI will still be a holographic representation in the middle if the cockpit like what we see come up when we first select station services right now. The way the UI is presented right now is very barebones though. See the Newsletter about trading for mockups of the trading screen. There is one image where cargo canisters are shown in the middle. Replace that with what we currently see in outfitting and I think that is pretty close to what we are going to get.

To lazy to give links...I'm on my phone.

 

[NeoRacer]

Yea I know seriously, the view ****'s want our heads clamped forward unable to take in anything outside the cockpit, its utter nonsense. Like I said, general gamers will be left wanting this feature and it will be coming like it or not. This is a game, people will be hacking it as soon as its released too your gonna just have to make a private server for you and your hardcore boys and play with yourselves.

Very nicely put!

I'm more than happy to play the game from the cockpit, but I want to be able to also enjoy the game from an external view from time to time to get further enjoyment/atmosphere out of it.

 

[tooterfish]

Yea I know seriously, the view ****'s want our heads clamped forward unable to take in anything outside the cockpit

Except your head very clearly isn't clamped forward...

Also, the station outfitting UI is explicitly a view through the station's external cameras, so it's hardly the earthshattering precedent you think it is.

None of you are even attempting to address the issues of exploits and abuse of 3rd person view either. Those are very real concerns, and most of you are completely ignoring that side of the argument because it's rather inconvenient to the whole "let me play how I want, it doesn't affect you" line.

It's time you faced up to the fact that it's you that's the vocal minority, because frankly this whole thing is starting to sound like a tantrum now.

"I WANTS IT I WANTS IT I WANTS IT YOU MEANIES"

 

[jabokai]

None of you are even attempting to address the issues of exploits and abuse of 3rd person view either. Those are very real concerns, and most of you are completely ignoring that side of the argument because it's rather inconvenient to the whole "let me play how I want, it doesn't affect you" line.

It's been addressed, read the whole thread. Various compromises have been suggested. Although, for single player, I see no need... let people actually play (and fight) in 3rd person there - who gives a damn!

 

[NeilF]

None of you are even attempting to address the issues of exploits and abuse of 3rd person view either. Those are very real concerns, and most of you are completely ignoring that side of the argument because it's rather inconvenient to the whole "let me play how I want, it doesn't affect you" line.

Sorry, I think you need to retract that statement. Many of us have gone to great lengths to understand the issues an in game external view may introduce, and you'd only need to go as far as the first post of the thread to surely realise that?

It's time you faced up to the fact that it's you that's the vocal minority, because frankly this whole thing is starting to sound like a tantrum now.

"I WANTS IT I WANTS IT I WANTS IT YOU MEANIES"

Childish antics aside, I don't think anyone can suggest they know opinion numbers?

But I would say, if Frontier can introduce a functional external view that does not compromise gameplay (ie: introduce combat exploits), what's the harm? Surely we all gain? Fingers crossed they can/do!

 

[Mack]

In fact the more I think about it, I just want to be able to turn the cockpit & HUD off, That really can't give any advantages, and it saves a lot of screen estate.

 

[NeoRacer]

Exactly, there's definitely something to gain by having it and a toggle switch for those with their head in the sands.

Like it or not, people WILL exploit everything in the game..does it mean we shouldn't have something because of that? If that was true every game screen would be BLACK. People here just cant get to grips with the fact that its a GAME. There are no real spaceships like this and the immersion is 100% imaginary and customized to everyone. Give us ALL the options and let us pick and choose what we want in the menu. If you want full realism and no ex-views so be it, dont handicap it for those of us that DON'T want it.


P.s. I will probably be playing Star Citizen in cockpit only. But for the times I wanna goof around and admire the universe I will definitely be using 3P. Im not gonna demand no one can have it bcus well..I dont like it?! LOL

Sorry, I think you need to retract that statement. Many of us have gone to great lengths to understand the issues an in game external view may introduce, and you'd only need to go as far as the first post of the thread to surely realise that?

Childish antics aside, I don't think anyone can suggest they know opinion numbers?

But I would say, if Frontier can introduce a functional external view that does not compromise gameplay (ie: introduce combat exploits), what's the harm? Surely we all gain? Fingers crossed they can/do!

 

[NeilF]

In fact the more I think about it, I just want to be able to turn the cockpit & HUD off, That really can't give any advantages, and it saves a lot of screen estate.

I think as long as there was a time delay (eg: a fade in/out of some sort) I can't see that being a combat advantage myself.

 

[NeilF]

Give us ALL the options and let us pick and choose what we want in the menu. If you want full realism and no ex-views so be it, dont handicap it for those of us that DON'T want it.

Can't agree with you there I'm afraid. If we take a black and white example of a simple traditional instant external view at the press of a button. Some players will almost certainly start using it to get a FOV advantage at times. This therefore means a potential combat advantage for them. This inturn means other players wishing to play from the combat (as Frontier would like) are at a disadvantage at times. That doesn't sound ideal to me.

And yes. I know some players with the Oculus Rift will have a potential advantage over regular players, but that's another issue

Simply, if we can have an external view that is nerfed in a few simple ways such that it does not offer a combat advantage, we will all be happy I would hope

 

[tooterfish]

If you want full realism and no ex-views so be it, dont handicap it for those of us that DON'T want it.

It's got nothing to do with realism.

By having an external view, you handicap everyone who doesn't use it. That means everyone has to use it.

That means it's you that's forcing your preferences on people... and for what? You're dramatically changing the dynamics of the game just so you can admire your own reflection. That's pretty selfish in my view.

I've personally got no objection if it can be done without compromising gameplay, but to suggest those opposed are being silly and selfish is rather blinkered, and stinks of pot and kettle.

Childish antics aside, I don't think anyone can suggest they know opinion numbers?

The only numbers we have are from polls like this, which clearly shows a very strong no.

You can say this poll might not be representative. But how representative are the numbers supporting the yes side... you know, those entirely non-existent ones?

 

[NeilF]

You can say this poll might not be representative. But how representative are the numbers supporting the yes side... you know, those entirely non-existent ones?

The poll you're referring to I assume is the one with terrible chooses and which adds up to more than 150%?

If I were to offer a poll that said, "Would you be in favour of an external view if it could be offered with no combat advantage?"
Yes?
No?

I'd imagine most folks would happily vote "yes" surely?

And I'd imagine this is the view even Frontier are taking towards the matter too? ie: There will only be some form of external view, if it doesn't not introduce game play issues.

 

[tooterfish]

I'm sure they would, that's a pretty big if though.

Once you start looking into the issue it's not at all simple to fix.

And again, this poll might have faults, but at least it's reasonably impartial and actually exists.

 

[Rog]

I've personally got no objection if it can be done without compromising gameplay...

Considering the skill of the devs, I would expect them to be more than capable of implementing some sort of external camera/drone that wouldn't compromise the game.

 

[Dirtmuncher]

I find it hard to reconcile the view that it's just a "vocal minority" opposed to 3rd person view with the results of the poll in this very thread.

If the poll is even borderline representative then an overwhelming majority do not want it in the game. And of those that would have it, the majority would want restrictions in place to prevent abuse.

Lol 50.xx % say yes tot external views. And only 3xx people actually expressed an opinion.