External View [A definitive discussion]

[mladenkovacevic]

I'm pretty ambivalent about having external views or not having them but just wanted to throw my 2 cents in from an "immersion" standpoint.

I guess I just don't see what's immersion-breaking about an external drone that can be flown manually or programmed to follow your ship. In combat everyone could have them so it's not like one side has an advantage over the other. I guess if you wanted to slightly nerf the combat-use of drones a couple limits could be imposed:

1) a distance limit from the main ship (so that you couldn't go through an asteroid and search for your victim without risk to the main ship)
2) the drone-view appears either in the display between the legs (small), or if you maximize it to full screen, you lose all the benefits of the main ship interface (radar, heat management, targeting reticle...etc)
3) the drone itself could not scan ships for bounties, cargo or help in targeting any way
4) the drones can be destroyed in combat (so if a player has programmed their drone to give them a rear-view mirror, the opponent can disable that during combat)

 

[Deyn]

Simply make external view without a HUD or any data available in SOLO mode and be done with it! No magic involved, no cheating possible, customers happy! No need to develop and code drones, major rise in skin sales, no cheating possible, Frontier happy!

Why the hell, is this so difficult? ...sounds like, "we can't give you a bike, as we are building a high end car, but that will take another 5 years to build"

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They are in the vanity only "Yes". I am saying "No" to the general external camera which is also what the poll overwhelmingly said no to. I have no problem at all with some kind of external system that can really only be used in a passive way, such as the drone system proposed by the devs themselves, and the majority of respondents on this poll say so too.

Just turning on the system that the devs are using for their promotional stuff is going to be a lot worse than just having an option for 3PV as their system is likely to be a full blown free camera system from the looks of the vids I've seen. That would be great for people wanting to make in-lore movies but would be terrible for fair gameplay.

IGNORE THE POLL it is broken???!!! As in not useful! No valid numbers! All arguments like Majority voted "whatever" are false?

 

[Baton]

as amateur photographer I would love to be able to take screenshots from outside of my ship or with my ship in them, so far it is like only being able to take a photo from inside of a bus - I usually hate it :/

 

[Dejay]

There shall be no 3rd person view except via a 'drone' that launches another 'drone' that can be operated ONLY whilst your are stationary with all input controls disconnected (also any interaction with Windows -Alt+Tabbing will also be disabled) and then thru a tiny degraded video screen somewhere in the back of the cockpit with a resolution of 320x200 (so you have to turn your head a full 360 degrees to see it) then, and only THEN shall a external view be allowed and thus maintain 'Immersion'™®©

*Also only 1 angle will be allowed, determined in advance by the original 'backers', via a democratic voting process. AND YOU SHALL LIKE IT.

You forgot to mention that it will cost 2000 credits every time you launch the drone!

 

[RaptorInMotion]

Surely just disabling movement controls whilst in 3rd person would do it?

Just set your speed, angle etc before changing views for the beauty shot and voila! People cant use it for combat

 

[AV-ON]

And use with caution in asteroid fields

 

[Rockie]

Surely just disabling movement controls whilst in 3rd person would do it?

Just set your speed, angle etc before changing views for the beauty shot and voila! People cant use it for combat

I could see this working as long as the transition takes at least 4-5 seconds. Otherwise you could just rapidly switch back and forth between the two views.

 

[RaptorInMotion]

I could see this working as long as the transition takes at least 4-5 seconds. Otherwise you could just rapidly switch back and forth between the two views.

Exactly.

"Camera feed initialising in 5...4...3" etc etc. No instant swapping, no advantage

 

[hologramix]

It would break immersion for me, but would like to see my orca next to my friends sidewinder.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Disabling it in combat would be okay but not ideal, mostly because it will hurt the youtube video and machinima makers.

Sadly with offline being gone my fall back position on this is also gone. I would say fan vids etc are nice but not if it is at the expense of the game.

Elite is a game played from the eyes of the commander so everything in game is meant to be with that in mind which is why there is a need for drones etc because conceptually magic views do not work. Not all sims have outside views. Iracing doesn't for instance.

The exception they have made to this seems to be the gal map and outfitting. But these are out of game anyway really.

Maybe putting them in solo or private would be a nice compromise. I have no issue with other people using them so long as it does not hurt me. Who am I to say what is immersion breaking or not, but as someone with no interest in PvP and will never fire a 1st shot at a human, and someone who personally wants to play the game from the eyes of my commander I do not want to feelcforced to flip flop between the views to keep my magic fov just to stay on an even playing field with PvP gankers. I am at a big enough disadvantage to them already. Those who say star citizen does not offer an advantage I would say that is largely because of the huge arrow which means you always know where your target is at all times anyway. Without that I think the switching from 3rd person would be a huge advantage

 

[WeirdWizard]

Sadly with offline being gone my fall back position on this is also gone. I would say fan vids etc are nice but not if it is at the expense of the game.

Elite is a game played from the eyes of the commander so everything in game is meant to be with that in mind which is why there is a need for drones etc because conceptually magic views do not work. Not all sims have outside views. Iracing doesn't for instance.

The exception they have made to this seems to be the gal map and outfitting. But these are out of game anyway really.

Maybe putting them in solo or private would be a nice compromise. I have no issue with other people using them so long as it does not hurt me. Who am I to say what is immersion breaking or not, but as someone with no interest in PvP and will never fire a 1st shot at a human, and someone who personally wants to play the game from the eyes of my commander I do not want to feelcforced to flip flop between the views to keep my magic fov just to stay on an even playing field with PvP bankers. I am at a big enough disadvantage to them already. Those who say star citizen does not offer an advantage I would say that is largely because of the huge arrow which means you always know where your target is at all times anyway. Without that I think the switching from 3rd person would be a huge advantage

I take your points, I've said before I'd be happy enough with it in solo for myself and for fan vids private group would probably be fine also. disabling in open wouldn't bother me at all. Although I doubt the advantage you mentioned would really exist (or rather any advantage would be so small as to be overwhelmed by the other built in imbalances such as trackIR support, control differences and just general my ship is better than yours effect). Using the radar you already have access to the information you need to track your target and you don't have to switch through disorienting views to use it, I doubt very much I would use external views in combat myself except where the combat was so easily won I could afford the time to take in the spectacle. But one of the issues with making an open online game is players perceived balance and fairness, regardless of the reality if people perceive a balance issue it'll cause problems so in that case turn it off in open. I'll just add it to the reasons I prefer playing in solo and private groups

Oh and on the point about Elite being a game played from the point of view of your commander... As you pointed out that isn't actually the case, there are already at least 2 instances that take you out of body. Even if there weren't I tend to fall into the camp of options are better than limitation. I really don't think the suspension of disbelief needs to be supported by some in game explanation for these things. When I play games its not me in that environment, its me controlling my character in that environment. Sure I can get immersed and feel like I'm my character and am in there looking out of his eyes, but I also like to step back and watch my characters story unfold from the outside from time to time. Elite is as much a role playing game as it is a space sim or combat game after all.

 

[NeilF]

As this is the only thread allowed on this topic could the mods possibly reopen the poll. Its only got 321 votes and has been closed for as long as I've been on these forums. It would be nice to be able to get some actual clear numbers as I'm sure everyone agrees extracting any clear percentages for or against from posts alone is nigh on impossible. Cheers.

The poll is well and truly broken. If you look it adds up to more than 100%.

Further more, IMHO, the options are somewhat poor (out of date)?

In reality the options are pretty much surely just:-
1) Offer a external view sufficiently nerfed to prevent any game/combat advantage.
2) Don't offer an external view.

 

[_Flin_]

What use is it to have colors and stuff when you don't have an external viewer?

My wifey chose the colors of the ship. Now she wants to look at it.

Plus she demands leather seats with a heating unit.

 

[Cosmos]

Couldn't agree more. I cringe whenever I see the external videos because I know how misleading they are. I also hope that FD allows us access to those same views in game.

lol

They aren't misleading at all. Unlike another game I could mention all the stuff Frontier produces is from in game.

 

[Deyn]

Surely just disabling movement controls whilst in 3rd person would do it?

Just set your speed, angle etc before changing views for the beauty shot and voila! People cant use it for combat

Just limit it to SOLO mode and the people can'T use it in combat against human CMDR? Even then I would consider my TrackIR, HOTAS mappings and Rudder pedals etc. a definite advantage over somebody using a mouse and keyboard or even a simple joystick... yet nobody asks to limit controllers to Gamepads only as "better controller setups and TrackIR" would be cheating.

 

[Kramster]

lol

They aren't misleading at all. Unlike another game I could mention all the stuff Frontier produces is from in game.

Got to say I was very disappointed in my youth...
.
I didn't get the hair style
My head mysteriously did not explode
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OK I may have started shouting a bit now and then
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[video=youtube_share;_-qZv1IsEpQ]http://youtu.be/_-qZv1IsEpQ[/video]

 

[letoras]

Just limit it to SOLO mode and the people can'T use it in combat against human CMDR? Even then I would consider my TrackIR, HOTAS mappings and Rudder pedals etc. a definite advantage over somebody using a mouse and keyboard or even a simple joystick... yet nobody asks to limit controllers to Gamepads only as "better controller setups and TrackIR" would be cheating.

This is the first thing that came up to my mind with the "advantage issue"....... +1 on that.

 

[Deyn]

Exactly.

"Camera feed initialising in 5...4...3" etc etc. No instant swapping, no advantage

Or simply limit external view to Solo mode, so other players are not affected? If you want to look at your ship, go solo make some screenies and everybody could be happy...

 

[NeilF]

Or simply limit external view to Solo mode, so other players are not affected? If you want to look at your ship, go solo make some screenies and everybody could be happy...

Only issue is, many people will be playing online mode, and then they find themselves in a situation where they'd love to switch to external view (ie: to better see their ship flying alongside a rare ship) and of course can't.

 

[talshiarr]

They aren't misleading at all. Unlike another game I could mention all the stuff Frontier produces is from in game.

The other spaceship game in development that does have and always had external views, you mean?