External View [A definitive discussion]

[Muadiib]

I definitely think this game needs a 3rd person perspective, an out of combat drone of sorts seems like the best course of action, that way I can command my ensign to get a drone ready and when he says it is ready for launch, I can say "make it so"!

Seriously though, a combat 3rd person perspective would only work if you had no hud and other ships could target and destroy your drone with one shot, that would be kinda interesting actually, but I think the safest bet is just to allow it out of combat and have it take a while to launch like in tng, I really wanna check out my ships man!!

 

[NeilF]

I definitely think this game needs a 3rd person perspective, an out of combat drone of sorts seems like the best course of action, that way I can command my ensign to get a drone ready and when he says it is ready for launch, I can say "make it so"!

Seriously though, a combat 3rd person perspective would only work if you had no hud and other ships could target and destroy your drone with one shot, that would be kinda interesting actually, but I think the safest bet is just to allow it out of combat and have it be take a while to launch like in tng, I really wanna check out my ships man!!

"out of combat" is a bit vague though. What defines "combat".

I still think no hud in external view, limited movement (rotation speed) and a delay going in/out of the view is enough to overcome most/all concerns.

Will be interesting to see if/what we get!

 

[Mephane]

Oh I think combat can be relatively easily defined in the context of ED: whenever any ship is marked hostile on the scanner.

 

[NeilF]

Oh I think combat can be relatively easily defined in the context of ED: whenever any ship is marked hostile on the scanner.

Some people will then complain then that leading up to an engagement (before combat) the external view could be used for some sort of unfair advantage?

Personally that's why I think a once solution fits all approach is better. ie: If you want to use external view in combat, fine, but don't expect to get any benefit from it!

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Oh I think combat can be relatively easily defined in the context of ED: whenever any ship is marked hostile on the scanner.

I know it is a big thread but this has already been discussed multiple time.

what about the stealth aspect of the game, sneaking up on a person in "cold" mode, or hiding around asteroids.

Combat does/may occur long before a blip is officially "red" and you are actively in a dog fight.

Its not that I am against other people seeing the pretty things from a nice view in principle, its just that I think it HAS to be done in such a way as to not be exploitable in any way in the game imo and I think this will be v difficult to do.

For instance...... Everything I have seen so far in the star citizen 3rd person mode, is exactly what I dont want to see in ED.

 

[tooterfish]

I know it is a big thread but this has already been discussed multiple time.

what about the stealth aspect of the game, sneaking up on a person in "cold" mode, or hiding around asteroids.

Combat does/may occur long before a blip is officially "red" and you are actively in a dog fight.

Yes, well it's only fair it's brought up repeatedly, since the pro argument is repeatedly brought up and this is by far the most salient negative.

Guys, please read the above statement over and over when considering suggestions for 3rd person!

The stealth system doesn't make you invisible, so exploiting a pilot's limited field of view is going to be a vital part of using it properly (especially when sneaking up on bigger, and hence much more powerful ships). Right now there's significant tension and skill to it, trying to stay in their blind spot, or hoping they don't look up at the wrong time and spot you out of the top of their canopy.

Stealth already comes with some significant disadvantages. Many vital systems are inoperative, the most powerful weapons light you up light a Christmas tree, and your shields are turned off and take time to recharge if you're spotted. A magic eye camera would utterly destroy what is a carefully crafted and quite fun gameplay mechanic, rendering it less than pointless, no matter how many HUD restrictions and other nonsenses you place on it.

Game-play trumps realism and immersion.

 

[NeilF]

The stealth system doesn't make you invisible, so exploiting a pilot's limited field of view is going to be a vital part of using it properly (especially when sneaking up on bigger, and hence much more powerful ships). It adds significant tension and skill to it, trying to stay in their blind spot, or hoping they don't look up and spot you out of the top of their canopy.

It's a fair comment but... In your example, you're suggesting someone's sneak (cold) attack is ruined by someone else sitting in an external view and seeing them, say approaching from behind? There are a few caveats in this argument though surely?
1) You're assuming someone has nothing better to do than sit in a HUD free environment doing nothing more than looking around on the off chance of seeing a remote (cold) dot approaching? Are you suggesting people will be flying around generally in this view for some reason?
2) The person in the remote view will be missing everything on their scanner! You could come in "hot" and they wouldn't see you! A fleet of pirates could appear and they wouldn't have a clue... on the off chance they spot a cold attack?

Game-play trumps realism and immersion. A magic eye camera would utterly destroy what is a carefully crafted and quite fun gameplay mechanic, no matter how many HUD restrictions and other nonsenses you place on it.

You may wish to choose your words more carefully - Clearly there's different view points on this matter so we need to accept that without riling people.

 

[tooterfish]

1) You're assuming someone has nothing better to do than sit in a HUD free environment doing nothing more than looking around on the off chance of seeing a remote (cold) dot approaching. Are you suggesting people will be flying around generally in this view for some reason?

I'm not assuming anything.

Go watch any Arma or DayZ video on a 3rd person enabled server (which is practically all of them), you'll see people subconsciously abuse it to peer around corners and over hills and walls all the time.

Perhaps more pertinently, one of the Star Citizen dogfight reveals had the pilot hide behind an asteroid and peer around it using 3rd person. It's literally the first thing the guy did in that situation.

It happens all the time, there are countless examples from other games. There's no [citation needed] here.

2) The person in the remote view will be missing everything on their scanner! You could come in "hot" and they wouldn't see you! A fleet of pirates could appear and they wouldn't have a clue... on the off chance they spot a cold attack?

How is this relevant. Unless they get a big sign over their head saying "I'm in 3rd person!", and also a cone telling you exactly where they're looking.

The point is, the 3rd person view doesn't need the scanner. It's also asymmetrical. In the above example, the guy behind the asteroid could see approaching ships without any risk of being spotted himself... even if those ships were also using 3rd person view!

You may wish to choose your words more carefully - Clearly there's different view points on this matter so we need to accept that without riling people.

You may wish to be less sensitive? There's nothing here chosen to rile people.

By nonsenses, I mean artificial gameplay mechanics meant to counter the advantages of 3rd person perspective. Things like taking away the HUD, or being non-combat only. None of those would actually make any difference.

 

[Daeron]

A third person view would feel more "MMO-ish", and not so immersive, since it is a movement away from your own perspective. Like "floating out of your body". There is no in-game explanation for it, so it comes down to where the simulation ends, and the game begins.

 

[NeilF]

I'm not assuming anything.

Go watch any Arma or DayZ video on a 3rd person enabled server (which is practically all of them), you'll see people subconsciously abuse it to peer around corners and over hills and walls all the time.

You're choosing a somewhat poor comparison surely? Can you give me an example of a flight sim where it's so relevant?

Perhaps more pertinently, one of the Star Citizen dogfight reveals had the pilot hide behind an asteroid and peer around it using 3rd person. It's literally the first thing the guy did in that situation.

I've not see this so can't comment. Can I ask three questions:-
1) Is the SC external view penalised with a delay. eg: 3-4 seconds in/out of view?
2) While hiding behind the asteroid in external view, they would be blind to anything on their scanner?
3) If someone was to get an advantage from sitting behind an asteroid and being tactical, is it really such a bad things?

The point is, the 3rd person view doesn't need the scanner. It's also asymmetrical. In the above example, the guy behind the asteroid could see approaching ships without any risk of being spotted himself... even if those ships were also using 3rd person view!

It's a fair point but I see it as such a minor point I don't see it as an issue personally. How often are you going to be flying around asteroids and come across someone who has nothing better to do than hide behind an asteroid (blind to the world with no scanner) looking around it on the off chance someone comes along in the direction?

You may wish to be less sensitive? There's nothing here chosen to rile people.

By nonsenses, I mean artificial gameplay mechanics meant to counter the advantages of 3rd person perspective. Things like taking away the HUD, or being non-combat only.

When you use the words "nonsense" about people's views it can rile people up IMHO.

I'd suggest taking away the HUD in an external view no more odd than strange space duct flying by all the time, or a speed limit of 200mps, or any other of the limitations/compromises put in for game play.

 

[NeoRacer]

There is already an all seeing 360 radar right in the cockpit, far more useful than a 3p view could ever be. If your not using that and using 3p to gain an advantage your doing it wrong.

 

[lefty1117]

Instead of a 3rd person view how about some static external camera angles and a flyby cam, similar to what you have in flight sims like Falcon 4, MS Flight Simulator, etc. Maybe a Cinematic cam like in GTA.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

You're choosing a somewhat poor comparison surely? Can you give me an example of a flight sim where it's so relevant?

I know we have covered this before you and I but for those who havent then i will post this again.

I am sure if you look at both the bottom one is clearly the more effective view... Equally I know Neil that the bottom vid is not actually what you want, but I am just posting an example of what I absolutely under any circumstances do not want. As I have said before, I am not necessarily against a nerfed external view with a lot of delays in place to stop hot swapping in battle, but I know others on here want unrestricted views which for me would kill the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8KFueV58UM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxENQWtsTiY

(I cant argue that the "view" from looking around in that bottom vid is fantastic eye candy however)

@NeoRacer the radar is not all seeing, it does not pick up silent running ships

 

[NeoRacer]

Oh sorry, it'd kill the game for you? That sucks Dont use it then?

I know we have covered this before you and I but for those who havent then i will post this again.

I am sure if you look at both the bottom one is clearly the more effective view... Equally I know Neil that the bottom vid is not actually what you want, but I am just posting an example of what I absolutely under any circumstances do not want. As I have said before, I am not necessarily against a nerfed external view with a lot of delays in place to stop hot swapping in battle, but I know others on here want unrestricted views which for me would kill the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8KFueV58UM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxENQWtsTiY

(I cant argue that the "view" from looking around in that bottom vid is fantastic eye candy however)

@NeoRacer the radar is not all seeing, it does not pick up silent running ships

 

[SAB380]

It ruins my immersion!
- don't use it then

I intend to be a stealth ninja!
- fine, external view is computer generated on your vid screen. It can't generate ships invisible on radar because it doesn't know you're there. Happy now?

No, you can't have it!
- let's do this again in a few weeks!

 

[Rog]

It ruins my immersion!
- don't use it then

I intend to be a stealth ninja!
- fine, external view is computer generated on your vid screen. It can't generate ships invisible on radar because it doesn't know you're there. Happy now?

No, you can't have it!
- let's do this again in a few weeks!

Lol.

I intend to be a stealth ninja, my sole prey will be fat traders who spend all day hiding behind an asteroid, keeping a constant lookout on a magic camera for stealth ninjas like me.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Oh sorry, it'd kill the game for you? That sucks Dont use it then?

no it would give an unfair advantage to players who DO use it therefore forcing almost everyone to use it, hence why (almost) everyone does use it in WT outside of the games mode which bans it.

FD advertised the game as being played from the eyes of the commander, it is you who are demanding taking away from this, esp with you not accepting any nerfs or limitations, not I.

And the fact that you are spreading miss information about ALL ships always being on the radar does not help and just muddies the water imo.

You have a view, which is the polar opposite of mine, fine feel free to state it but please don't invent games mechanics that are not there just to reinforce you view.

 

[tooterfish]

When you use the words "nonsense" about people's views it can rile people up IMHO.

I wasn't calling their views nonsense, not having a 3rd person view could also be called a nonsense. It's a pretty artificial restriction in itself, since we already have the technology to do this... it's just a nonsense that supports a gameplay mechanic, rather than destroy it.

But yeah, in hindsight I can see how that was a poor choice of words, people could take it the wrong way. I blame the weather.

I'm not going to address anything else, because frankly I'm sick of arguing in circles about this. And as you can see from NeoRacer's response, the proponents of 3rd person will just blithely ignore the arguments anyway, so it's a gigantic waste of time.

 

[ParaB]

I'd love an external view simply to admire the ships. Make it a simple thing without instruments and HUD and nobody will complain about "unfair advantages" in combat etc.

 

[jabokai]

I'd love an external view simply to admire the ships. Make it a simple thing without instruments and HUD and nobody will complain about "unfair advantages" in combat etc.

Oh you optimist you! People will complain even if it confers no advantage whatsoever (with yours, or the various other restrictions suggested) and that it will simply "ruin their immersion" if it exists at all... even if they don't use it.