Farming Npc’s at stronghold carrier’s

[Rubbernuke]

They definitely would not be able to do it this efficiently if PPV2 was Open Only, which seems to have been the original intention by the look of this design.

Even PvE its possible- the problem is there are no NPC ships tough enough to close the gap and be a threat.

Compare that to ATR- when they spawn in they are guns ready, and spawn in wings around you to form a cordon if you run.

You'd think the pride of a Powers navy would have spec ops level ships patrolling and scanning, and that quick response is by clouds and clouds of SLFs and more wings of spec ops set to a medium / high sec BGS time response (so from 30 seconds to 10 seconds).

That would be fun- especially in wings.

The easiest way to defend these stronghold systems would be if stronghold carrier instances were off-limits for NPCs.
The captain of the carrier should say something like 'sorry guys, you're too weak, stay away from this place'.

Back on another thread I suggested that this areas activities only counted in Open for power influence (but you kept the personal merit rewards).

 

[galahad2069]

Compare that to ATR- when they spawn in they are guns ready, and spawn in wings around you to form a cordon if you run.

The problem with that approach is that in the current state of the game the only ways to make NPC cops capable of deterring player ships is either spawn them in stupidly overwhelming numbers, like 50 to 1 (which results in FPS drops) or give them magical (otherwise nonexistent) weapons like station guns.

The same thing could be achieved much more efficiently by a single CMDR (or a small wing of them), and it's also a lot more fun.

 

[galahad2069]

...or introduce a difference like PG gives 1/10 of merits vs. open play.

Or none at all.

 

[Rainbro]

But that doesn’t reinforce the system against undermining, so how’s that helpful? Seriously why do people keep making this suggestion, I’m not out for revenge, I’m trying to counteract the undermining.

These forums are a lost cause for discussions on topics like this. There's simply no way that "do absolutely nothing to balance the modes" could be failing to provide the divine goal of "all modes must be equal". Just a weird coincidence that the meta always ends up shifting to the mode where you can turn off meaningful opposition (or turning other modes into it by abusing the block list).

 

[Rubbernuke]

The problem with that approach is that in the current state of the game the only ways to make NPC cops capable of deterring player ships is either spawn them in stupidly overwhelming numbers, like 50 to 1 (which results in FPS drops) or give them magical (otherwise nonexistent) weapons like station guns.

The same thing could be achieved much more efficiently by a single CMDR (or a small wing of them), and it's also a lot more fun.

The balance is making it possible to get some but be eventually beaten back.

There should be places where open makes a difference (like here) but you also need PvE to be functional as well.

 

[galahad2069]

The balance is making it possible to get some but be eventually beaten back.

There should be places where open makes a difference (like here) but you also need PvE to be functional as well.

PvE is already functional. It does not necessarily need to be functional (let alone the meta) everywhere.

 

[Jmanis]

But that doesn’t reinforce the system against undermining, so how’s that helpful? Seriously why do people keep making this suggestion, I’m not out for revenge, I’m trying to counteract the undermining.

If nobody is undermining their strongholds, they don't really need to reinforce it do they? Worst case, both your strongholds get undermined. Best case, they stop undermining yours and start reinforcing theirs.

 

[Rubbernuke]

PvE is already functional.

LOL. If only.

The double irony is that BGS security does what should be going on.

 

[Rainbro]

If nobody is undermining their strongholds, they don't really need to reinforce it do they? Worst case, both your strongholds get undermined. Best case, they stop undermining yours and start reinforcing theirs.

The worst case you describe actually does sound kinda bad, though? Well have to see where the equilibrium lies but if solo farming is way overtuned, everyone doing it is just going to result in everyone getting nuked to the point where the modifiers finally balance out.

 

[Screemonster]

Oh boy, so it's similar to the problem that bountyhunting-versus-murder had in the pre-3.0 BGS - namely, that one could farm cops way more effectively and easily for unlimited undermining than any possible positive lever could be applied to counter it, which allowed (as happened on several occasions) a faction's influence to be tanked to 1% in a single tick.

If one side can rack up merits way faster than it's possible for the opposition to counter by doing a single, spammable action, then that's a balance issue regardless of mode and regardless of what it is. "just do it back to them in their stronghold" doesn't work as a counter because it assumes the individuals doing it even care about their stronghold system as opposed to just farming merits, and honestly the game probably could do without a nuclear option of "everyone just nukes everyone else's strongholds back to fortified"

If nothing else, after all the work the devs put into these stronghold carriers and the like, you'd think they'd want players to keep them around rather than adopting a meta of "don't bother fortifying to stronghold, it's just a liability and gives our enemies something to farm".

 

[Agony_Aunt]

1) Sounds like the player is being clever, tickling the NPCs from a distance to lure them away

2) Early days balance issues, assuming your assessment is correct, that one or a few are massively outperforming many commanders trying to counter them. This requires feedback to the devs thread, not a rant on the forums thread about open vs pg/solo, for what we already have a thread for.

3) If the method you're using is not being effective, turn the tables on their power, do the same back to them, or go undermine some of their expansion or reinforcement systems. The galaxy is your oyster. You're probably actually better off letting your stronghold get hammered because the worse it is, the more it will be clear for FD that something needs balancing if strongholds start to fall in the first week.

4) Even in an open only situation, the aggressor always has the advantage. They drop in, see you're protecting this stronghold by sitting waiting for another attack, so they head off and start hammering a new one. You go to the new one, they go to another one, etc. The galaxy is a big place. You spread out to cover all strongholds, they start hitting reinforced systems. You go to cover them and now you don't have anyone back at your stronghold. Or you left just one guy, and they fly in with a wing and wipe them out, kill some NPCs, then jump to another system before you can respond. You'll never be able to respond quicker than an attacker can switch to a new system and cause issues.

5) On a dark desert highway...

 

[Commander Biscuit]

Or none at all.

Also no merits for people playing at 4am.

 

[galahad2069]

The worst case you describe actually does sound kinda bad, though? Well have to see where the equilibrium lies but if solo farming is way overtuned, everyone doing it is just going to result in everyone getting nuked to the point where the modifiers finally balance out.

Even if you started to undermine their stronghold, that would not make them withdraw from undermining yours, since there is literally no way to reinforce a system against such an attack in the first place, that's the issue the topic is about, is it not?

 

[galahad2069]

Also no merits for people playing at 4am.

You realize the Earth is not flat, right? It's always daytime somewhere.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Oh boy, so it's similar to the problem that bountyhunting-versus-murder had in the pre-3.0 BGS - namely, that one could farm cops way more effectively and easily for unlimited undermining than any possible positive lever could be applied to counter it, which allowed (as happened on several occasions) a faction's influence to be tanked to 1% in a single tick.

If one side can rack up merits way faster than it's possible for the opposition to counter by doing a single, spammable action, then that's a balance issue regardless of mode and regardless of what it is. "just do it back to them in their stronghold" doesn't work as a counter because it assumes the individuals doing it even care about their stronghold system as opposed to just farming merits, and honestly the game probably could do without a nuclear option of "everyone just nukes everyone else's strongholds back to fortified"

If nothing else, after all the work the devs put into these stronghold carriers and the like, you'd think they'd want players to keep them around rather than adopting a meta of "don't bother fortifying to stronghold, it's just a liability and gives our enemies something to farm".

The issue (bounty hunting-versus-murder had in the pre-3.0 BGS) with that was the punishment was not matched to the crime (unlike now where the opposite is true, the price outweighs the influence).

Going into a stronghold should be stealth to hack, and that NPC scans set off hell. Out of all the places in PP2 stronghold FCs should be the highest reward for the highest risk.

They should also be places where the best NPCs hang out- again, for good rewards.

So far we have none of this. In a stronghold system its midnight at Tescos, when it should be high sec in lockdown.

 

[Rainbro]

Also no merits for people playing at 4am.

I'm not a fan of the idea that if we can't matchmake literally 100℅ of people with everyone else, there's no point in multiplayer. People are going to play in quiet hours, but luckily there are multiple people, overall it should balance out. Surely it can't be worse than the meta of 0℅ matchmaking?

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'm not a fan of the idea that if we can't matchmake literally 100℅ of people with everyone else, there's no point in multiplayer. People are going to play in quiet hours, but luckily there are multiple people, overall it should balance out. Surely it can't be worse than the meta of 0℅ matchmaking?

Its like, why can't we have both? Strong PvE and elevated Open rewards for killing commanders in these areas?

 

[Darkman Returns]

Interestingly I found this on the Issue Tracker while looking to see if anyone had reported the server issues: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/67191

Me and a lot of cmdrs constantly getting ATRs at strongholds if we farm for like 15 minutes. They have station guns so we can't oppose at all. i have also being assigned supwerpower bounty for shooting power ships (this is not related to ATR).

This person is claiming that there are in fact ATRs turning up after some time. If true this would suggest that FDev already have anticipated this tactic and just need to adjust the timer so that ATR turn up early enough to make this a less attractive strategy for undermining.

 

[Rainbro]

Interestingly I found this on the Issue Tracker while looking to see if anyone had reported the server issues: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/67191



This person is claiming that there are in fact ATRs turning up after some time. If true this would suggest that FDev already have anticipated this tactic and just need to adjust the timer so that ATR turn up early enough to make this a less attractive strategy for undermining.

These people are unaware then that they can completely opt-out of ATR by just making a hyperspace jump in and out before they start showing up. This resets their timers and you rinse and repeat. This is apparently by design.

I guess it's fine though because everyone can do it may as well have a button on the main menu that says "no ATR please".

 

[Rubbernuke]

These people are unaware then that they can completely opt-out of ATR by just making a hyperspace jump in and out before they start showing up. This resets their timers and you rinse and repeat. This is apparently by design.

I guess it's fine though because everyone can do it may as well have a button on the main menu that says "no ATR please".

I like the idea of hard ships but ATR is kind of silly given you are supposed to attack in Powerplay.

Its why I prefer spec ops wings that keep on coming- they make you work but are possible to kill off for a reason and keep the flow of the game going.