FD, I implore you, do not bulldoze over our existing gear and upgrades

[Mephane]

I honestly think the way forwards is for Frontier - somehow - to level the playing field and so far as possible attempt to heal the game and the fractures in the community. It's obvious that following the video report of February 2017, Frontier made a serious mistake in letting this thing continue. The player base do not by any means bear all of the blame here.

As for "healing the game and community", consider that the exploit is essentially two cheats in one:

1. The cheaters bypass this grind that even many people who like the idea of engineer upgrades per se have a deep hate for. The cheaters ignore the double layers of RNG to get the specific materials, they ignore the railroading into the various activities that yield those materials, and then they brute force the final layer of RNG by throwing the cheapest, most abundant level 1 mats into the slot machine.
2. The cheaters acquire upgrades that are far superior in stats than anything any legit player could ever hope to achieve - or even anyone could have ever known was possible at all.

For me, #1 is actaully the worse part of the two. #2 can be repaired by just deleting their mods (maybe even resetting their saves?) and then rebalancing or removing secondaries to prevent any further god rolls in the future (and capping all existing mods at the level indicated by the sliders' maxima). But if the response to this exploit does in any form involve the legit players having to do even more of this terrible RNG-upon-RNG-upon-RNG grind, it does not heal the wounds, it makes them worse - because then the fallout of this exploit would be that I, as a legit player, would now have to do more of this <ahem> because of these cheaters.

 

[znôrt]

To PvEers this will not matter as their current modules will be fine for current NPC's, but for anybody that either gives or receives PvP, this constitutes a slim chance at redemption.

And before the PvPers jump on this screaming about the grind; you guys brought this down on us. You guys are responsible. And while you're at it, take a helping of credit for legitimizing clogging.

and this is not a fact of life but your opinion. a moral judgement actually, and helps little if it shifts the real responsibility away. if there are exploits people is gonna use them, and combat mechanics is not something you can improvise and fix just by loading it with more variables like a christmas tree.

as brilliant as the game is, elite dangerous pvp is a complete aficionado development. this is the glaring issue, we're lab rats in a mad scientist's tower. and all this stuff is not new, there's been about 30 years of development experience and technology, but somehow frontier needs to reinvent every aspect of every wheel.

but yes, thargoids might be an opportunity to help clear this mess, however it's not a perfect overlap. i'm afraid a partial solution (along the lines we have seen up to date) could be ... worse, much worse. imo this issue was broken enough to warrant a thorough rework even before thargoids, or even before the exploit (this particular one, we have no clue how many more there are) went public.

(actually i would dispute your first fact of life too. ed didn't exactly spell out 'new modules' or 'new weapons'. he repeatedly said 'tactics'. i can think of reasons why he would have deliberately chosen that wording, and it is indeed probable that's the case but ... we just don't know yet)

 

[BL1P]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I honestly think the way forwards is for Frontier - somehow - to level the playing field and so far as possible attempt to heal the game and the fractures in the community. It's obvious that following the video report of February 2017, Frontier made a serious mistake in letting this thing continue. The player base do not by any means bear all of the blame here.

I think the calls for punishment are understandable yet wrong. They lack context. What has taken place here is the inevitable product of how ED has been developed. That development has led to a firm expectation amongst a section of the player base that it is foolish to handicap yourself by refraining from exploiting, and that you had better play a different game if that’s your thing.

After some 2.5 years of Live, the expectation amongst longstanding Open-world PvP-ers is that Frontier will with each patch introduce a number of gaping holes which they will not fix for months, if ever, even when those are not just identified and reported to them multiple times but even form the basis of videos and complaint threads. And that when (or if) fixed the fix will be prospective only – nobody loses their stuff.

This expectation is not just reasonable it is demonstrably correct. Basically inevitable. Witness:

(A) The Cargo Scan Exploit (2014 to early 2015). This is actually the only exploit, beyond the RNG g1/g5 one, actually worthy of that name. But it infected the very birth of ED’s Open World PvP because – let’s finally admit it – much of the ‘golden age of PvP’ around Leesti in 1.0 to 1.2 was directly funded by the cargo scan exploit, which enabled several PvP groups to amass infinite credits and hence focus entirely on building their skills. All those creds, still in game.

(B) Robigo Money Printing (late 2015 to early 2016). This was certainly not an exploit because Frontier actually supported it, via implementing an in-game system of fines for doing it. Cmdr Sundae of SDC actually put a video guide to it on these forums. Tragi-comically, most users didn’t bother watching his video and replied with non-sequitur posts about smuggling, never even realising that it was a guide to making 50,000,000 creds/hr without leaving the station. All creds, still in game.

(C) Thermal Cascade Bug. Frontier have so far failed to fix or even mention thermal cascade even though it behaves completely inconsistently with their stated objectives. Innumerable posts on subject. Still in game.

(D) Premium Ammo Bug. Took over a year to fix. Why?

(E) Combat Loggers. I’m not talking about the isolated examples here, but the aggressive bottom-feeders with thousands of sidey-kills. All still in game, except for one guy who was also accused of hacking.

(F) RNG g1/g5 exploit. Allegedly reported in Beta 2.1. Definitely reported in February 2017. Definitely video of it provided in February 2017. Nothing happened.

Now, against that history, let’s consider what players were reasonably going to believe.

I’m going to use the example of Smiling Dog Crew here, not for controversy, but because afaik they are the only group to have had the candour to have a senior member actually put a timeline on this thing (it’s been publicly confirmed on reddit that they learned of the RNG exploit in March 2017). What they did with that knowledge is not for me to say. Although I would like to thank them for their constructive proposals about solutions.

But, against the true history of this game, if your whole ED is apex Open-world PvP, what would you do? You know it’s been reported, with video. You didn’t invent it, you just learned of it. You know others have learned of it and are already farming it. You know Frontier have done nothing. You know that Frontier never do anything. You know that everyone always gets to keep their stuff.

Against that backdrop, I’d go so far as to say that your choice would be simple: exploit up, 24/7, production line style, for as long as you can stand it, until your fleet is tip-top, or leave. Because the only things you would feel sure about would be that everyone else will be setting up production lines, and that they will be keeping everything their god roll factory can make, even after the patch – if any – ever comes.

The Devs need to read this !
I feel it is important for the games future.

 

[jasonbarron]

@Truesilver, as much as it may sound like it I'm really not embittered towards those who took advantage of the exploit. I consider myself friends​ with a number of them, and that hasn't changed. Mostly I'm just frustrated by the can of worms they were a party to. In many ways this whole thing reminds me of the tour de France drug scandal, where cyclists felt like they had to participate in the conspiracy or just quit riding.

I just wrote my piece to reflect the severity of the situation, though I have no interest in punitive actions against players. At the end of the day I just want to see the playing field leveled

 

[Mephane]

(actually i would dispute your first fact of life too. ed didn't exactly spell out 'new modules' or 'new weapons'. he repeatedly said 'tactics'. i can think of reasons why he would have deliberately chosen that wording, and it is indeed probable that's the case but ... we just don't know yet)

He did say literally "new weapons".

 

[znôrt]

He did say literally "new weapons".

really? on the live stream? i listened to that part twice, must have missed it then ... :O

i remember feeling him struggling to find the words, though.

 

[Adept]

Some of it = low hanging fruit if you will =
its not even hard to do... surely the code cant be that inflexible so as not to allow specilised missions which come with a specific ship.

There would be many, many ways to start tackling it. I'm not seeing any evidence that Sandro & crew are interested in doing so, unfortunately. The core balancer in me weeps for the game. :/

 

[Waldi]

With the coming of the aliens its the perfect time for FD to do a complete overhaul of engineers. They now have a perfect opportunity to redo all mods and release balanced ones in their place.
FD could blame the aliens for breaking them, have the engineers release new ones and offer to roll 3-5 times for all old mods returned then you get to pick the best roll.

 

[Adept]

With the coming of the aliens its the perfect time for FD to do a complete overhaul of engineers. They now have a perfect opportunity to redo all mods and release balanced ones in their place.
FD could blame the aliens for breaking them, have the engineers release new ones and offer to roll 3-5 times for all old mods returned then you get to pick the best roll.

Yeah. A massive computer virus, something about the unknown artifacts perhaps. Compared to telepresence it will barely be a hiccup in the lore.

 

[Punished Mobius]

Someone from FDev need to say something on this matter. I'm tired of going in circles. Have them clarify what their intentions are or if they are playing it by feedback. On the two issues here. The Cheating. and then new weapons balancing in with the old. Somehow you all seem to have them intertwined when they are really separate issues both worthy of their own responses.

 

[Xani D]

Old gear needs to still be viable in the way it was intended, and new gear needs to have purpose, whilst not clashing with, or making it redundant (Or unbalancing the game further).

New weapons which specifically give benefits against thargoids would be fine (With the downside of they are not as effective in other areas), new modifications that stop the disabling effect of the thargoids on the ships powerplant could be added (Perhaps that sits alongside an existing modification), perhaps a hull modification that stops some kind of corrosion (Not saying they will have this effect, but it would be cool) effect from their weapons, a weapon (Missile?) that increasees the damage they take over a peroid etc. Would you have to compromise on things, yeah, I think you should, but thats not to say you cant store multiple modified modules. or have a specific ship for the job. No one ship should be perfect in every area.

 

[Zambrick]

While losing all the work put in would indeed suck, this possible power creep or change is very very common in MMOs.

Take Raids in WoW for example. Each new raid or dungeon negates the gear from raids of the past. They have taken the time to then polish and or re balance the combat mechanic. New stats/attributes became more important than they had previously. Its slowly been refined over the last decade or more.

More importantly what this did was give people a new carrot to chase. It also allowed them to address balance issues and clear out some of the cheese ball mechanics of the past. In WoW you had stunlocks and fearlocks as well as stun rogues and Ice mages. Each one of those past iterations of characters/powers had some sort of mechanic that negated the entirety of anyone elses defensive or offensive capabilities.

In ED terms the entire list of experimental Effects that are applied to weapons and the uber shields are the current worthless cheeseball thing. There is no reason to add that level of complexity to a weapon as this is not an RPG. If it were, then there would be an exact counter to them. As we know the heat meta, hull melting, module destructive focus, and Experimental weapon effects are currently killing any hope of real PVP in open. The semblance of balance and ship diversity completely ended with the introduction of the Engineers. Now more than ever a starter ship has the ability to blow up a multibillion dollar ship even easier than they had before.

So yes it would suck, but this could also be the oppertunity to bring things into perspective and re shape the Engineers to their intended purpose. I am not fond of the literal space wizardry that they are capable of. Space magic is a boring trope and has only ever been successful in the 40k Universe.

 

[Adept]

or have a specific ship for the job. No one ship should be perfect in every area.

The ships should have niches. That would be essential for a good balance in a game like this. Sadly the Dev team seem committed on a level based design with noob ships, midlevel stepping stones, and endgame cheese.

 

[Mephane]

Old gear needs to still be viable in the way it was intended, and new gear needs to have purpose, whilst not clashing with, or making it redundant (Or unbalancing the game further).

New weapons which specifically give benefits against thargoids would be fine (With the downside of they are not as effective in other areas), new modifications that stop the disabling effect of the thargoids on the ships powerplant could be added (Perhaps that sits alongside an existing modification), perhaps a hull modification that stops some kind of corrosion (Not saying they will have this effect, but it would be cool) effect from their weapons, a weapon (Missile?) that increasees the damage they take over a peroid etc. Would you have to compromise on things, yeah, I think you should, but thats not to say you cant store multiple modified modules. or have a specific ship for the job. No one ship should be perfect in every area.

If engineers were not a thing, I'd be totally fine with just new and more expensive guns that are like the old ones but with a +1 vs Thargoids modifier.

 

[Sylow]

[...]

Against that backdrop, I’d go so far as to say that your choice would be simple: exploit up, 24/7, production line style, for as long as you can stand it, until your fleet is tip-top, or leave. Because the only things you would feel sure about would be that everyone else will be setting up production lines, and that they will be keeping everything their god roll factory can make, even after the patch – if any – ever comes.

.
I think this is the very first time that i think your posting is going utterly wrong and missing an important point: all those who used the exploit for months did not report it. It is only now that it was reported and made public. Thus the ball never was in FDs field. All you wrote about FDs track record of generally being slow in fixing a bug or exploit might be true, but also note that in the present case, when the problem was made public, a fix was installed within less than three days. (If this information is wrong, please correct me, but that's how i observed it. )
.
So everybody who knew about the exploit and did not report is knowingly and intentionally broke the terms of service. Now there are two groups of players: those who play legit, and those who cheat and exploit. Frontier now can decide, which part of the playerbase they want to keep, and which part they rather get rid of. The ball is in their field now, and for me up to now the message seems to be clear: i shall uninstall the game and leave it for the exploiters.
.
That all being said, i also dare to point out that the new gear most likely won't fix the issue. It might mitigate it a little, but do you really expect that we'll get a replacement for each and any module in the game, where the new one is so inherently better than the previous version that it will completely develue god-rolled modules? I very much doubt that. Some weapons or modules might get replaced, but most of the exploited equipment will stay in use. It softly touches the problem at best and certainly doesn't solve anything.
.

 

[Truesilver]

It is only now that it was reported and made public. Thus the ball never was in FDs field.

No, it was reported to Frontier Support in February, who asked for a video, which was provided. After that nothing happened. The ball was in Frontier's court for four months but it was only fixed when it hit the forums. All the screenies of the correspondence have already been posted on these forums, as here:

http://imgur.com/a/eIVbr

 

[Sylow]

No, it was reported to Frontier Support in February, who asked for a video, which was provided. After that nothing happened. The ball was in Frontier's court for four months but it was only fixed when it hit the forums. All the screenies of the correspondence have already been posted on these forums, as here:

http://imgur.com/a/eIVbr

.
Oki. In that case, FD indeed also is to be blamed for the problem. Which still doesn't change the fact that players broke the terms of service, and FD really should ponder which part of the playerbase they want to foster: legit players or exploiters?
.

 

[DarthVain]

Edit: There have been some misunderstandings where I am aiming with this thread. To clarify: I do not want to have to repeat the RNGineer grind. I have no issues with an item reset that also gets rid of RNGineers in the process. But right now the most likely prospect is that new gear will either come in the form of new mods, new items that we have to reapply the the mods we already use on existing gear, or both.
------------------------------

I am not the only one that fears that the rather vague hints about "new weapons" may either mean more powerful guns, shields etc. than the current ones, higher grade engineer mods than the current ones, or just a special variant of either that specifically works against Thargoids, but is no more powerful against other human ships (or any combination thereof).

I implore you, FD, please do not go down this path. Do not bulldoze over our current gear, invalidating it all with an dreaded MMO style item reset.

There is a way to achieve your goals without invalidating our current gear: new item slots.

While many an MMO likes to add new equipment that replaces existing gear, another common approach is to introduce all new item types that go into all new item slots!

This has many advantages:

• Existing gear keeps its value, the effort we have put into it is not devalued.
• The new gear does not compete with existing gear, but adds on top of it.
• New players do not bypass all the old content and equipment, but face a broader set of things to achieve.
• It is much easier to keep up the game balance when the old items keep their role intact instead of having to rebalance everything from scratch with new, more powerful gear.
• Opening up the new slots can be part of (if not the most significant part) of the effort to acquire the new gear.
• New types of items would naturally lend themselves to new, different types of effects that may not come in the form of damage.
• It might be a good idea to implement these not as slots on the ship, but slots on existing items, like gem sockets in various RPGs.

I have compiled a few examples what these new items may be, all in the form of add-ons that are equipped into new slots on existing modules:

• EMP Jammer. The Thargoids have the ability to completely shut down human ships. With this add-on to the power plant, you can withstand their EMP and keep your reactor going, and thus your ship alive. This could either be a passive effect or something you have to activate in the right moment.
• Bioship Scanner. Thargoids have biological ships that function totally differently from ours. With this add-on to your sensors, we can identify modules and weak spots in the Thargoid ships to attack. (Thargoid ships could even be game-designed so that only those weak spots can be attacked to damage them!)
• FSD Hypermodulator. While we are not able to utilize the advanced hyperspace technology of the Thargoids, with this add-on to the wake scanner it is possible to fly through a Thargoids hyperspace portal intact.
• Hyperdiction Countermeasure. A hyperdiction is not instantaneous, and this add-on to the FSD detects it as soon as it starts, and allows you to counter the effect in a manner similar to supercruise interdiction escapes.
• Meta-Alloys Nanites. Some Thargoid weapons deploy effects similar to how the Unknown Artifacts damage ships and starports. These nanites made out of Meta-Alloys can repair the internal damage caused by these weapons. This is an add-on to the regular AFM unit.
• Quantum Shield Modulator. Thargoids weapons are actually not much more powerful than human weapons in terms of energy, but utilize new quantum effects only recently discovered through research into Thargoid incidents. This add-on to the shield generator utilizes the same effect to protect against Thargoid weapons, preventing them from simply bypassing our shields.

Some of these items may be easier to achieve because they are very fundamental of mounting any form of resistance (i.e. the EMP Jammer - you can't even think of defending or fleeing if your ship is just shut off) and would thus be easier to acquire, while other gear is more advanced and takes a greater effort (of whatever the new grind may be) to get.

P.S.: Once we have add-on slots on the equipment, it might be a good idea to revisit engineer experimental effects; these could be available also in the form of add-on to put into these slots on your guns, thus allowing you to add the effect to an existing weapon, swap out different add-ons (they would function like modules that you can swap, store, transfer etc. in this regard) etc.

Give me a Cloaking device so
I can infiltrate the Thargoid Bases

 

[Zeeman]

Bulldoze away. The RNGineers are garbage.

A bit harsh.... Great concept, poorly thought out and executed would be my analysis.

Z..

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The ships should have niches. That would be essential for a good balance in a game like this. Sadly the Dev team seem committed on a level based design with noob ships, midlevel stepping stones, and endgame cheese.

personally i have no problem with different ships excelling for different roles (obviously who would?)
but equally i have no issue with some ships being out and out better than others - but they should be more expensive to buy, and maintain, and possibly only certain systems can do the advanced maintanence of them.
Just like a ferrari is arguably functionally similar to an mx5, its just a LOT faster, but a lot more expensive and tempramental.
BUT i totally agree the engineers have gone way off the reservation, not only with too much power but also with crazy space magic..... imo ED was meant to be science fiction, not space fantasy.

here is my biggest issue however.

i would like to have ships crew like outlined in the ddf, with differing levels, offering advantages
i would like to have the chances of getting true one of a kind upgrades - which cant be replaced under insurance. ... (that come via a lucky mission etc so everyone gets a chance to experience the stuff not just the dedicated players).

but imo so long as engineers offer such massive boosts, then the notion of adding even more just does not compute to me. imo FD should give with 1 hand and reign in with the other.

Let us have crew and all that stuff, and depending on what crew we have gives us boosts in certain areas - some active some passive but at the same time with engineers , imo even "god rolls" should only be giving us a 10% increase over all per module on anything over stock... and FGS these should be the unique items talked about in lore so should NOT be replaceable under insurance claim.

Perhaps make them suffer increased wear and tear and eventually break due to operating outside of peramaters. but the carrot should be, make them far easier to get in the 1st place.imo it is a mistake making this stuff grind out for 10s of hrs, then letting us get "god gear" but us never ever have to work for them again.

imo ED upgrades inc engineers should be..... small ugrades but loads and loads of them, and we need to keep going back for more... but individually fairly easy to get once we make the required contacts from which to get them.