Not been on these forums for a while, it seems the pvpers still haven't caught on to the fact that this is a pve game at it's core. The game permits pvp but will never really cater to it in the main galaxy, I'm not sure what the devs could do to make this more obvious.
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Let's leave moderation to the mods eh.
He quoted a developer who directly contradicted the assertion in your post. I think the Devs know what their game is meant to be better than you do. You have failed to contribute anything to this thread in your 2 posts so far. You're dismissed.
If and when a mod decides my posts are flaming and decides to dismiss me then I'll take notice.
As for the dev post, do you really expect them to directly come out and say 'you pvper's aren't significant in the core game design'? Of course not, the marketing dept would have a fit. You may not be the majority of the playerbase but you're still customers so of course they'll give statements like the one quoted, meanwhile the game design screams PVE FOCUSSED.
Firstly, stop talking out of your backside. You are off on at least a couple of points.
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WRT Effective ranges and aiming, gimballed weapons have ~5degrees of tolerance on the aiming versus the target position and thus depending on relative flight characteristics gimballed weapons can perform better (depends on the circumstances and the target). Plus if you eye-ball aim at targets they behave like fixed weapons.
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WRT Missiles, they can affect shields (not necessarily as effective as other weapons but they do) - wait till you have had a barrage of missiles shot at you and you will see what I mean. I know one player who occasionally uses a 6-missile launcher build on a particular ship and two volleys can destroy a shielded Vulture based on their reports.
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WRT the build I posted, I will repeat for one last time - it was NOT a final unequivocal loadout but it was good enough to prove my point. The shield strength even with just 2 A-class boosters is still impressive given the ship size. I generally follow a basic pattern for INITIAL load-outs and I followed that basic pattern with the build I posted - Rarely does that pattern end up being the final loadout I actually use though.
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As for having nothing to contribute, your constant whining and niggling about a prospective build I posted (despite the caveats I already posted saying it was not a final build) is adding nothing to the discussion and if anything weakens your case overall IMO. It seems the primary complaint you have is that you can not use SCBs on the courier but there is not a strong case to support that you should be able to.
The game is PvX though, and while I would tend to agree with your standpoint there is a strong case to support the stance that all players PvE/PvP/PvX should be listened to and treated as equal voices (which I and others believe is already the case). If PvPers (or any other group focused on one game element or another) expect some special treatment then they are in cloud oo land IMO.
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If there are specific issues that directly affect a particular element of gameplay (e.g. excessive use of stacked SCBs in PvP) then it should be addressed but overall the game balance is what it is and should not be tailored towards one type of activity or another IMO. With the SCB nerfing in 1.5/2.0, it seems that some pre-v1.50 SCB users may be finding it hard to adapt but ultimately FD are the ones that have to judge if the nerf went too far or perhaps not far enough (ball is in their court).
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No, they don't behave like fixed weapons. Fixed weapons have convergence on them which locks onto a ship near your convergence point. If you are using Gimbal and you "unlock" target, you're doing 20% less damage and no convergence on target. This is a well known fact. Anyone who says "But if I drop target my gimbal weapons perform the exact same as fixed!" have never used Fixed weapons and/or they're lying.
This leads us to the next question... When was the last time you used Fixed pulses?
Missiles do very minimal damage to shields. You're talking to me like I don't know what I'm talking about. Missiles do crap damage. Load up any ship you want with 100% missiles and I guarantee you will run out of missiles before dropping my shields in any ship I fly.
And, this says nothing about why you would use 2 point defense.
Okay, good for you.. Come 1v1 me your courier vs my courier and see how long you last. If you're not willing to do that, then you're not very confident in your courier build or your piloting skills.
Whining? Telling you that you don't know what you're talking about and that you don't know how to build a ship and that you clearly have zero PvP experience and thus are completely out of your element and should defer to people who actually *do* know what they're talking about is not WHINING. Sorry, but not everyone who disagrees with you is WHINING.
Furthermore, you CAN use SCB's on a Courier, they're just NOT WORTH USING, because small SCB's have been nerfed to the point of uselessness.
The fact that you decide to use sub-par/inferior builds on your Courier and then tout those as "Perfectly fine!" does not contradict my original point: The Couriers effectiveness in combat has been extremely nerfed as of the most recent patch. This truth is self-evident. No amount of argument on your side will prove otherwise. You sir, are the one "Talking out of your backside."
Confident with your Courier build? Come 1v1 a PvP fit Courier. Otherwise, I'm going to ignore the remainder of your posts. You can find me on the teamspeak "ts.tgpnet.org", though I know you won't show up.
@Etherimp: You don't know what you are talking about by the way you keep beetling on about a build I posted rather than actually addressing your original points. You seem to have turned this thread into a personal attack (from my viewpoint - hence the whining comment) and I am not going to play your game any longer. I have no interest in engaging in PvP or TS based ing contests thank you.
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FTR it does not matter why I might use two point defences but based on my experience line of sight is a factor wrt their effectiveness so in my starter build point I normally allow for two point defences on ships with what I consider a sufficient number of utility mounts to ensure I have coverage for missiles regardless of the angle of attack (or at least to try to cover the main angles of attack). In the case of the courier, more than one would not make as much sense due to all the utility points being on top of the ship.
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As for missiles doing crap damage, individually they do but as I said a friend uses a full missile build on occasion and they find it effective enough or so they tell me. I doubted them at first but they have used it in practice and it seems to work surprisingly well.
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I responded to your points that seem to be focused on a particular meta-build for the Courier that no longer works because of the rebalance to SCBs. You then used that to hyperbolise that the Courier is now useless.
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In general, while I may agree with SOME of the points you raised back at post #147 the on-going debate lacks any substance to counter my counterpoints IMO. In fact, it seems you are unable to from the degree of focus you have placed on the off-the-cuff build I posted.
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FTR it does not matter why I might use two point defences but based on my experience line of sight is a factor wrt their effectiveness so in my starter build point I normally allow for two point defences on ships with what I consider a sufficient number of utility mounts to ensure I have coverage for missiles regardless of the angle of attack (or at least to try to cover the main angles of attack). In the case of the courier, more than one would not make as much sense due to all the utility points being on top of the ship.
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As for missiles doing crap damage, individually they do but as I said a friend uses a full missile build on occasion and they find it effective enough or so they tell me. I doubted them at first but they have used it in practice and it seems to work surprisingly well.
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I responded to your points that seem to be focused on a particular meta-build for the Courier that no longer works because of the rebalance to SCBs. You then used that to hyperbolise that the Courier is now useless.
My counter-point was that the courier can still be an effective heavily shielded fighter relative to other ships of comparable value, assuming you build it right (exact configuration is moot in the main though). There is even a recent active thread extoling the virtues of the courier.
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In general, while I may agree with SOME of the points you raised back at post #147 the on-going debate lacks any substance to counter my counterpoints IMO. In fact, it seems you are unable to from the degree of focus you have placed on the off-the-cuff build I posted.
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Anybody who builds ships the way you built that Courier has no place telling people that they have no place telling people how to build ships. In short - you started the personal attacks, and you have repeatedly made a joke of yourself. Every time you post you prove more and more that you really don't know what you're talking about.
I wasn't asking you to engage in a ing contest. I was asking you to test your build in combat. The first thing I do when trying a new build is look for friends to test my build against, which goes back to the original point in this thread: PvPers test their ships, modules, and builds in the most extreme circumstances they can find before coming to a conclusion about the efficacy of said module, ship, or build. People like yourself, however, rely completely upon aesthetics, hyperbole, and word of mouth from other people who aren't necessarily qualified.
If FDev listens to people like you, they may get the false impression that Gimbals are superior to Fixed, the Courier is just fine, Missiles are viable, and Point Defense is worth a utility slot.
Unfortunately for you, none of those things are true and it's not a matter of opinion. It's demonstrable fact. If they were good, they would see use in PvP.
@Etherimp: As I see it you are giving the false impressions, and I have said NUMEROUS times that the build I posted WAS NOT A FINAL BUILD and while it might be indicative of an early purchase configuration it was only a quick punt (hence why I did not even bother with the power groupings - something I look at with ALL my ship builds). Your continued badgering over that specific build is tantamount to a personal attack.
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Gimbals are superior to fixed under at least some circumstances, but they can suffer from CM interference. Turrets also can be superior to gimballed depending on positioning and the circumstances. You can try to deny these points but that does not make them any less true.
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The Courier is a decent ship, not my favourite but decent none-the-less, missiles can be viable, and as for point defence I know it is worth a utility slot. The PD has saved my hide on a few occasions.
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If FDev listens to people like you, the sky is falling about sums it up.
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In the end though, it is all just opinions and there is no real unequivocal truth/fact in such matters.
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As for why people might not use them in PvP, that is anyone's guess - collective wisdom can have blind spots.
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Gimbals are superior to fixed under at least some circumstances, but they can suffer from CM interference. Turrets also can be superior to gimballed depending on positioning and the circumstances. You can try to deny these points but that does not make them any less true.
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The Courier is a decent ship, not my favourite but decent none-the-less, missiles can be viable, and as for point defence I know it is worth a utility slot. The PD has saved my hide on a few occasions.
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If FDev listens to people like you, the sky is falling about sums it up.
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In the end though, it is all just opinions and there is no real unequivocal truth/fact in such matters.
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As for why people might not use them in PvP, that is anyone's guess - collective wisdom can have blind spots.
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@Etherimp: As I see it you are giving the false impressions, and I have said NUMEROUS times that the build I posted WAS NOT A FINAL BUILD and while it might be indicative of an early purchase configuration it was only a quick punt (hence why I did not even bother with the power groupings - something I look at with ALL my ship builds). Your continued badgering over that specific build is tantamount to a personal attack.
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Gimbals are superior to fixed under at least some circumstances, but they can suffer from CM interference. Turrets also can be superior to gimballed depending on positioning and the circumstances. You can try to deny these points but that does not make them any less true.
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The Courier is a decent ship, not my favourite but decent none-the-less, missiles can be viable, and as for point defence I know it is worth a utility slot. The PD has saved my hide on a few occasions.
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If FDev listens to people like you, the sky is falling about sums it up.
No. To all of it. Just no. You're wrong. Get over it.
Back at ya... in brief.
Fixed are efficient in group fights, where a target is getting ganked by multiple attackers who can align their sight easily. In a one on one, using fixed vs a half decent gimballed opponent will ensure that your insurance company pay the bill to get you in a ship again.
I am a few pages/days late but
I dont think Attack limpets fit into the universe
Leave that role for the short range fighters, F63 Condors etc
Repair and rearm limpets I do agree with
Small ships being able to try for a positioning advantage over the bigger ships too
I dont think Attack limpets fit into the universe
Leave that role for the short range fighters, F63 Condors etc
Repair and rearm limpets I do agree with
Small ships being able to try for a positioning advantage over the bigger ships too
Perhaps players and devs can look at the Honor Guard system in that old MMO Jumpgate:TRI as reference.
http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/jumpgate-review/1900-2819087/
"Fighting other players is another story, and in unregulated space--or if you choose to fly for your faction's Honor Guard--you can kill or be killed without punishment. Player-vs.-player combat is a good way to test your flight skills and pick up some techniques that other pilots have mastered."
I remember playing that game where attacking neutral players in hi-sec (not unregulated, or anarchy) systems would bring a world of AI police hurt on you. But if you wore the honor-guard tag, you could kill other honor-guard tagged players at will without issues.
Think of that as a PVP society tag.
Why would you join their ranks? Well, maybe combat would bring about more XP, bonus credits for hunting or trading, etc etc. But it comes with more risk.
Something to consider perhaps.
http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/jumpgate-review/1900-2819087/
"Fighting other players is another story, and in unregulated space--or if you choose to fly for your faction's Honor Guard--you can kill or be killed without punishment. Player-vs.-player combat is a good way to test your flight skills and pick up some techniques that other pilots have mastered."
I remember playing that game where attacking neutral players in hi-sec (not unregulated, or anarchy) systems would bring a world of AI police hurt on you. But if you wore the honor-guard tag, you could kill other honor-guard tagged players at will without issues.
Think of that as a PVP society tag.
Why would you join their ranks? Well, maybe combat would bring about more XP, bonus credits for hunting or trading, etc etc. But it comes with more risk.
Something to consider perhaps.
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I don't think you're playing the same game I am. At one point missiles had some real teeth. A few 'griefers' used them in the early days of the game's release to great effect. Frontier nerfed them to where they're just minor annoyances now. I would never consider equipping them and don't see them as a threat under any circumstance.
Wrong.
In one vs one, the guy using fixed wins every time.
2 Chaff = 2 minutes of damage mitigation vs the Gimbal user.
Silent Running + Mirrored Surface Armor = Shut down 90% of a Gimbal users damage.
I've *NEVER* lost a 1v1 vs someone using gimbaled weapons. That includes punching up against bigger ships with bigger guns and better shields.
That said, some PvP builds mix Turrets/Gimbals/Fixed. For example; a FAS with 1 Large Turreted Beam + 2 Med Fixed Pulse and 1 Large PA or Fixed Frag Cannon.
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Why don't you think Attack Limpets fit into the game universe?
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I think the central problem between PvE and PvP is the extreme advantages any dedicated PvP loadout has:
- Use of very high damage ammo-limited weapons no one would bring to hunt NPCs at an RES, but for a single PvP encounter they can be godlike (railguns, fragment cannons).
- Extreme tankiness from SCB and/or HRP stacking, especially vs non-stacking. Compare, for example, a Python* equipped for a versatile profile, some cargo space, guns, good shields, single SCB, scanners, SRV hangar. It has no chance whatsoever against another Python that fills its internals completely with with SCBs and HRP, plus military-grade/mirrored/reactive armour. It's absolutely no contest, equipment trumps everything if the pilot with the better-equipped ship knows what they are doing - and PvP players naturally have more practises at PvP fights in the first place, so the experience advantage is with them, too. (You could take any ship and compare a full tankiness PvP burst damage build with a more PvE "sustain" oriented build and the difference will be extreme.)
I still think SCBS should be limited to 1 per ship, and maybe HRPs now, too, to provide a lower ceiling for hull and shield tankiness. There's still enough a PvP loadout could do with the remaining space, AFMUs, bigger interdictor, a fuel scoop is always handy etc.
- Use of very high damage ammo-limited weapons no one would bring to hunt NPCs at an RES, but for a single PvP encounter they can be godlike (railguns, fragment cannons).
- Extreme tankiness from SCB and/or HRP stacking, especially vs non-stacking. Compare, for example, a Python* equipped for a versatile profile, some cargo space, guns, good shields, single SCB, scanners, SRV hangar. It has no chance whatsoever against another Python that fills its internals completely with with SCBs and HRP, plus military-grade/mirrored/reactive armour. It's absolutely no contest, equipment trumps everything if the pilot with the better-equipped ship knows what they are doing - and PvP players naturally have more practises at PvP fights in the first place, so the experience advantage is with them, too. (You could take any ship and compare a full tankiness PvP burst damage build with a more PvE "sustain" oriented build and the difference will be extreme.)
I still think SCBS should be limited to 1 per ship, and maybe HRPs now, too, to provide a lower ceiling for hull and shield tankiness. There's still enough a PvP loadout could do with the remaining space, AFMUs, bigger interdictor, a fuel scoop is always handy etc.
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This.
This is the heart of the problem.
I have a Python right now, and I've resorted to trading for the time being in order to get enough cash to buy and fit out an ExploraConda - I just can't afford it right now.
So it's basically mostly cargo space. I do have it also fitted out with shield boosters, chaff, heatsink, and all the gun ports filled to the brim with death-dealing weapons - the trouble is I know for a fact that if I encounter a PvP'er who's only motive in-game is to blow something up - preferably me - then that's what will happen. It's recently happened when I was in an exploration-fitted Clipper.
That's what compounds the scenario you posted - the not insignificant amount of players who don't even roleplay a pirate - they're just there to blow up other ships. And they'll fit their ships in the manner you describe. There's just zero competition.
I don't know what the answer to that conundrum is, to be honest. Play in Solo/Group is an option of course - but then you get D. Braben saying "come on out and play in Open - it's fun!". Then you get blown up by an indiscriminate player in their PvP-fitted monster. I mean, it's all very well DB saying "come play in Open it's the best" or words to that effect, like he did recently in a livestream, but there really are way too many players out there who do only care about how many other player's ships they blow up.
There has to be a way for everyone to play in Open and at the same time discourage indiscriminate blowing up of player's ships. I say discourage rather than ban because I do recognise that that is the way some people like to play their game - I can't argue against that - but at the same time, it's such indiscriminate behaviour that actively discourages playing in Open if you're not naturally a PvP'er or not in a ship which can handle the usual sort of alpha strikes these god-ships can perform. ( I will add that usually nowadays I can manage to high-wake out of that situation, it's just that it's getting to the point where "Oh god here we go again another player-killer in a god-ship" is getting downright dull.)
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