ANNOUNCEMENT Fleet Carriers Update - Patch 3

If you don't like those things, this isn't the game for you. This isn't meant to be a non stop action game, it's MEANT to have a lot of quiet travelling. Go play another game and stop demanding that a game people enjoy for those reasons you dislike it change to fit your interests.
There is a difference between quiet travelling and time wasting.
2-3 minutes of quiet travel is fine.
Anything beyond that is just wasting people's time.

Just like saying: If you want an FC, you have to go and mine. You won't get one by shooting Thargoids or by doing CZs. You simply won't! It just doesn't pay enough for you to ever afford an FC.
What about people who don't like mining? Are they simply excluded from the FC focus group, because they have a dislike for mining?
Gankers and griefers have driven a lot of players from Open to Solo and PGs. So those who RP a pirate now have slim pickings. Again: Excluded from vast riches?

Where am I going with all this?
Simple: If you don't want it, don't use/do it. Those who want it, can use it.

If you'd have the ability to Microjump, like you can do in your carrier, from one planet to the next, without a carrier being involved, would you use it?
No one forces you to do so. All it does is skip a say 60 minutes SC wait.

I don't know if you own an FC or not. But that little thing alone lets you skip long SC wait times like Hutton Orbital trips.

So let's keep going: I like mining, I got my FC, I can skip a 90 mins SC cruise to Hutton because I mined.
The Hutton trucker, who hates mining, and cannot afford an FC, has to sit and wait 90 minutes every time he goes to Hutton.
Should he be disadvantaged because of his play style compared to mine? Just because he prefers trading vs shooting rocks?

There should definitely be some balance between boring and non-stop action.

Fixed a problem with the Low Temperature Diamond commodity not decreasing its demand level as players sell commodity units to a market that demands it when the faction controlling that market has any state active in that starsystem.
Does that mean the demand will go up as well to reflect that change? Because a demand of 5000 or 10000 LTDs is VERY quickly filled these days.
And will the Bulk tax still apply?
I'm talking about the last 700t of demand, where one can fly in with a cutter and full load, and due to mechanics, paid peanuts due to the sales tax.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
(Though I can understand them ignoring unconfirmed bugs
Can you? Let's take a few shall we?
Still broken
Still broken
Still broken

I can't be bothered to go through my ones and find more for you. The confirming system is a terrible idea, especially when Elite bugs need 10 confirmations and the other games only need 3. And even more so when something like the Wolf Rayet one can be checked in two minutes by someone at Frontier, but would require 10 other people to visit some system in the middle of nowhere, then also somehow persuade a load more people to vote on the issue to make it deemed worthy enough to be fixed!

Not that obviously it makes any real difference anyway, because this was confirmed in November of last year, after only having two other people comment on it. And still nothing has been done to address it.
 
obligatory: https://steamcharts.com/app/359320

those are (at least somewhat) silly numbers. any source?

Sure, several ways to get approximately the same numbers using a combination of in-game and public 3rd-party information.

1) The Distant Worlds method

If you compare traffic levels through EDDN (3rd-party tools) and traffic levels report in-game at stations you can conclude that about 5-10% of player activity in the bubble is tracked by 3rd-party tools (EDDiscovery, ED Market Connector, etc).

We know from EDSM how many people set off on DW2 using 3rd-party tools to track their journey and got at least as far as the first few waypoints, and therefore weren't in the bubble, and we can see the (step) change in activity in the bubble when DW2 departed.

Approximately 1/6 of the EDDN-tracked player activity dropped out when DW2 left, and according to EDSM that's caused by 84% of 5380 people reaching the first waypoint, so that's about 27000 (weekly active) players using EDDN-feeding 3rd-party tools in total, which we know from the traffic report to be about 5-10% of all players, so that's 250k-500k total weekly active players.

DW2 was a while ago but what player activity metrics can be obtained have been broadly stable since, other than in the last few months where they've gone up a bit, so it probably hasn't changed massively.


2) The Squadrons method

We know from the squadron leaderboards that there are at least 12000 squadrons on PC with some activity in an 8-week 'season', and sampling squadron sizes gives an average players/squadron count of about 8 (lots of 2-player and 3-player squadrons offset by a small number of 100+-player squadrons that people might actually have heard of)

12000*8 is about 100,000 players.
Looking at similar figures from XBox/PS4 about 75% of players in squadrons seem to be on PC.
So that's about 133,000 players in squadrons, a substantial proportion of which must be somewhat active or the squadrons wouldn't show up on the leaderboard at all (if a squadron has only 2 or 3 members, one of them must have done something).

Hang around in Open, see what proportion of players have a squadron tag. At least the ones I see, most players aren't in a squadron. Solo players are probably less likely than Open players to be in a squadron, too.

Getting a decent sample is tricky, but still, somewhere over 200k seems very plausible here based on maybe 1:3 people being in a squadron in Open.


3) The Steam Stats method

Steam stats give about 12,000 daily peak concurrent players at the moment, at around 2000-2200 UTC.

If I check my friends list at that time of day and sort by 'active first', most of the first page is online, the next five pages have been online at some time in the last 24 hours, and the next six pages have been online at some time in the last week. (This proportion has been basically stable for years, though obviously individual players might take weeks off at a time)

So that suggests that around 1/12 of weekly active players is online at the peak time. 12,000 * 12 ~= 150k weekly active players on Steam

So ... how many players out of the total are on Steam? Obviously the 25% on consoles (estimted from the squadron boards) aren't on Steam. So this gives 200k+ weekly active players, perhaps quite a bit more if there's a significant number of non-Steam PC players.



All three of these estimates are compatible with a weekly active number somewhere around 250k (and a monthly active number probably around twice that) so I tend to go for 250-500k as an estimate of "somewhat active"



as a seasoned procrastinator i can assure you that months flying by is not work. are you really wanting to say that the current carriers as implemented took "years of work"? dunno if that's just silly humor or actually intended as an insult 😂
Given that prior to carriers "a station, but it can change state without a weekly server reset" was a concept widely laughed at with Thargsday and similar ... I'm not going to underestimate just how difficult it was to get stations to move (mostly) reliably to player-defined positions on 15 minutes notice and have most player clients agree most of the time on where they are.

The time taken to develop a feature and the actual bits the players see aren't necessarily related. The bit of code that stops two carriers coming out of hyperspace at the same location as each other and as an NPC station we'll never see, and if it took months to get right, that's months before they can release carriers because we'd really notice if it wasn't there. (The big remaining flaw in this code that drops carriers into the ambiguous zone near rings and sends them running away from their owners most certainly has been noticed...)

It was a couple of years and multiple delays before carriers were released, so I'm assuming it took them a couple of years of work.
 
I wrote this a while ago:
'Once enough players confirm'?

I can see how there would be plenty with insufficient evidence but surely it only takes one report with sufficient evidence to acknowledge there is a problem?

I agree with Ozric's sentiment - there should be some to & fro here rather than relying on blind faith that FDev have seen that there is an issue (and therefore doesn't need to be re-reported) and are just short on time. Some sort of 'Known Issues' thread that is regularly maintained.

I also think the requirement for multiple confirmations comes across as a fob off, intentionally or not.
 
The only people who won't are the ones who would rather play an interesting game, instead of headbutting themselves with these stupid grinds.
The lynchpin that Elite pitches is it's procedural generation... so how is that reflected in a game rewarding you most for sticking in the one spot doing the same thing over and over and over again?

Thats very subjective

It could also apply the the BGS or PP Trade runs and Exploration the rewards being inside my head Ive done all but PP and broken down its fairly repetative ,today though my Anarchy faction has helped me achieve a Notoriety of 4 ,now thats new my reward 1.2 m plus a rebuy ,prison and 7m in fines that I cant pay yet
 
Lol. No.

Fdev already said they look at all the bugs - but if a bug does get confirmed they'll probably look at it more. And if it gets lots of votes than it's more likely to get addressed. It's called prioritisation.

(Though I can understand them ignoring unconfirmed bugs - let's pick the most recent as an example https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/18102 - "Earned bounties disappeared after rebuy". Yes, yes they do - because that's the game design, as you would know if you knew how google, or even the pilots handbook, worked 🤦‍♂️ )
Eh, at least one Acknowledged bug (15192) in the top 20 for votes is reporting an intended and (slightly) documented feature of the game as a bug. If that's the level of attention they're paying to those [1] then I'd be very surprised if anything below Confirmed gets anything more than a brief glance to check for obvious duplicates. The FAQ on the bug reporting site makes clear that if it's not Acknowledged it's not on their real internal bug tracker.

Having several times got together a posse to get those confirmations, I now only report bugs if I can be bothered to also organise a confirming team. Waste of my time putting the report together otherwise. (Better than 50% fix rate on the ones I do get confirmed, though)

[1] To be clear, the feature and its documentation is obscure enough that I'm in no way expecting first-line QA to know it's a bug, and the report itself misses out the key reason why it's a feature not a bug because the reporter (and their entire squadron, by the looks of it) don't know about that either.

But the development team responsible for that area will definitely know what's going on and why within about five minutes of investigation, and should be getting something back to first-line so that they can close and update the bug report with "working as intended, see X and Y".
 
I agree with Ozric's sentiment - there should be some to & fro here rather than relying on blind faith that FDev have seen that there is an issue (and therefore doesn't need to be re-reported) and are just short on time. Some sort of 'Known Issues' thread that is regularly maintained.
Possibly y'all are missing that the fdev 'acknowledged' state is used to flag when QA are aware of an issue and have agreed it exists - for instance this issue: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/12070 has only 2 confirmations, but has the green 'acknowledged' tick that allows it to be voted on.

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It's a horrible UI - bugs either get 10 confirmations, OR QA can confirm it - I've had some confirmed on the initial report. ofc getting an issue acknowledged is actually better than getting 10 confirms, as it means QA have reproduced it themselves - whereas even 10 confirms does not imply the same. It's not explained at all well, and I could have it all wrong ofc :)

Edit:
Eh, at least one Acknowledged bug (15192) in the top 20 for votes is reporting an intended and (slightly) documented feature of the game as a bug.
Probably as I stated ^^^ - 10 confirms makes it acknowledged but doesn't mean they agree / can reproduce 🤷‍♂️
 
[*]Fixed a problem with the Low Temperature Diamond commodity not decreasing its demand level as players sell commodity units to a market that demands it when the faction controlling that market has any state active in that starsystem.
Thanks for letting us know.

Obvious follow-up question - does this apply to the other affected goods as well? (Tritium, Agronomic Treatment, Painite, the other core-mined gems like Rhodplumsite)

Other than Tritium, which is obviously new, these goods weren't affected by this issue in 3.6 but are in 3.7

Thanks
 
Probably as I stated ^^^ - 10 confirms makes it acknowledged but doesn't mean they agree / can reproduce 🤷‍♂️
10 confirms makes it Confirmed.

Someone at Frontier has to then set it to Acknowledged, which (entirely reasonably, but noticeable if you get to Confirmed on a Saturday morning) only happens during working hours. But if you're not watching the bug closely you can easily miss that step...

Obviously they can set a bug to Confirmed+Acknowledged at any time, but that seems very rare (outside of Beta, when they're looking a bit more closely)

(They do have and use an Invalid state for "this isn't a bug", but clearly don't have time to go through and use it for a lot of them, even the Acknowledged ones)
 
After 10 years of dedicated WoW fanboying, a few years ago I left intentionally, fed-up with its evolution I experienced over time; and one of the major reasons I cite is because Blizzard always nerfs fun and never buffs.

Fdev, thank you for being just as obvious with your practices.
Thank you for the predictable gold rush with the Fleet Carrier patch to let us all get FCs when we otherwise never would be able to afford it, and won't be able to moving forward. We knew the nerf to the ground baby would come shortly after and here it is. You give me no reason to touch SSD mining again.
You did the same thing with Void Opals last year to get us to try out the new core mining mechanics, then eventually & predictably nerfed it too. I haven't touched core mining since.

As someone who grew up with the Wing Commander series (from WC1 through Prophecy, with countless hours in my beloved Privateer!), Tachyon the Fringe, Starlancer, Freelancer (and the Freelancer Discovery mod RP servers for years!) -- combat is mostly why I play space games. Elite Dangerous' combat is fun, and I love the modularity of Elite's ships & systems. And it's hella fun in VR, which I've been playing exclusively in for the past 4 years, after a decent first year since release day on a flatscreen!
BUFF COMBAT PAYOUTS!
Players have been asking nicely and politely for ages. Balance income methods in the game.
At the extreme example of how bad combat related money making is, look at Thargoid Interceptors. It's embarrassing how much time, effort, and grinding you need to put into Elite Dangerous to get to the point where you have a ship capable of fighting a Cyclops solo, and then the actual fight is a thrilling but difficult full-on boss fight with fight phases requiring specific tactics and little forgiveness for mistakes. You finally kill one and... 2 Million credits. Well thanks, that just about covers my Krait mk2's repairs plus some therapy from the experience.

Stop pushing gold rushes and then nerfing them. The game we want to play is about fly space ships, not fighting the devs.

Why do I even both posting this rant when I already know from history it will be ignored.
/rant, or something
 
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very happy to see some of these mining and LTD price changes incoming. i know its strange to get excited about a potential nerf, but lets face it mining income has been getting out of hand. good to see the first steps being taken to address game balance.
 
Use a combination of automated testing and load / stress testing to get an idea of how a system performs under pressure?
They probably do, but there's no real way to carry out a stress test that matches all the users in the live game.

Users are endlessly inventive and having several thousand players all doing something the same and different all at once, well there's just no convenient way to test like that.
 
Megaship looting is broken and installation/megaship scenarios do not start. Are you going to fix these issues as well?

 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Possibly y'all are missing that the fdev 'acknowledged' state is used to flag when QA are aware of an issue and have agreed it exists
So QA are not aware of the issues I listed earlier, and they also do not exist? Issues don't auto expire after 30 days, they have to be manually set to expired. The system is fundamentally flawed, and from a customer engagement point of view it is shocking. And I've worked as a QA for the last 9 years.

They may know about them, they may not. They may care, they may not. From a user's point of view I have no idea what is happening, because there are too many conflicting examples and the dashboards don't show the correct information.
 
I am not looking forward to seeing the mining LTD-price nerf. Just another way to slow us artificially down to mooooooore grind, as if this game wasn't grindy enough.

Instead of nerfing everything to the ground, why won't FD consider buffing stuff like combat? Credits aren't the only currency in the game. The point where money doesn't mean to much is long gone by. So at this point and the current levels of pricing (yes, I look at you, nasty upkeep) this is just another artificial way of keeping us grinding instead letting us do, what we like to (which is mostly heavily underpaid: Combat, Missions and other stuff)

No, instead make sure, you grind your soul out, just to feed the upkeep of your mobile station ... carrier.
 
Fdev already said they look at all the bugs - but if a bug does get confirmed they'll probably look at it more. And if it gets lots of votes than it's more likely to get addressed. It's called prioritisation.
I get your point, because it is a good one, we all know how noob mistakes mistakenly mistaken for bugs work, but you'll have to pardon me if I'm not entirely confident in how the system is being implemented, particularly considering how much one ought to prioritize a bug that makes it impossible for people to even play the game. Silence for weeks then "oh yeah, we know about it, here's a fix for the hair colors until we get around to doing something about the bug that causes the game to crash. Oh, is it tea time already? Dearie me, got to go."

But that's just my opinion. Doesn't detract from the point you're making. It's potentially a very good system. As with all good systems, however, it depends on how it's implemented. :)
 
What about the system map where fleet carriers are clogging up the map to a point where you have to zoom out so much just to select a body in the system. You have star systems with so many FCs that the map looks absolutely hideous. This is a clear indication that it was so rushed and never fully realized. Feels very much like a half baked and rushed feature you duct tapped into the current map.
I think the devs need to take another look at this and redesign a better way to represent FCs in the system map.
A simple solution for the system map would be to have a "Toggle Fleet Carriers" button - also have it remember your last toggle so you don't have to do that all the time.
You could switch to orerry mode but it's not very useful for selecting bodies.
 
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