ANNOUNCEMENT Game Balancing

500--1000LY is a long way to go. Exploration is only nice in theory:

First you need to get lots of money to get a decent ship to use for exploring. Then you need to do a lot of engineering to increase the pathic jump range. Then you need to go get at least a Guardian FSD to increase the still pathetic jump range, and even though the jump range is better than it was, it remains pathetic.

Nah, this is wrong.

I took a Dolphin with no Engineering, and probably sub-optimal exploration modules, and I went almost all the way to Sag A*, then to Colonia, and then back to the bubble. Made enough money to become a billionaire, and basically never had to worry about money ever again.

It didn't require any grinding, or an expensive ship, or engineering, or the Guardian FSD. If your goal is to reach a far-away place in as few jumps as possible, yeah, you want all of that, but that isn't exploring, it's just space tourism. If you want to explore? There's plenty of exploration to be done in the galaxy, and you don't need a very good ship for it. Just a fuel scoop and some patience.
 
Nah, this is wrong.

I took a Dolphin with no Engineering, and probably sub-optimal exploration modules, and I went almost all the way to Sag A*, then to Colonia, and then back to the bubble. Made enough money to become a billionaire, and basically never had to worry about money ever again.

It didn't require any grinding, or an expensive ship, or engineering, or the Guardian FSD. If your goal is to reach a far-away place in as few jumps as possible, yeah, you want all of that, but that isn't exploring, it's just space tourism. If you want to explore? There's plenty of exploration to be done in the galaxy, and you don't need a very good ship for it. Just a fuel scoop and some patience.

I'm not saying it's not possible to make long trips with some ship without equipping it much. It just doesn't seem like fun to me. If I wanted to travel around the world, I wouldn't want to do it on foot, either. It would be too much grinding. Did you make billions just from that trip?

What is there to explore? More rocky bodies and gas giants like all the other ones I have "explored" while the system scanner still is not automated so that it's a grind?

What's the difference between "space tourism" and "exploration"? That I prefer to travel in style, which is one of the reasons why I like the Beluga for exploration? Too bad that I can't take passengers on exploration missions because I can't make my own cruises. And I don't know any of the 3 people who actually use multicrew, and if I did, they might not want to spend months with me stuck on the bridge, as nice as the bridge of a Beluga is.

Or is it that I don't want to have to make thousands of tiny jumps and that makes me a tourist? It's a repetitive task, you know, jump, scoop, torture myself with the system scanner, jump, scoop, torture myself with the system scanner, jump ...
 
Prices are still in flux Different logins give different prices at the same station...
Musgravite is back up to ~1.2 million per ton with out moving from the same station with the same ship lol...
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Have you genuinely never stopped to consider that maybe the game being boring once you take away the gear treadmill is the problem that should be addressed?
What makes you think I haven't? I have. But what to do about end-game content is another matter entirely.
 
member: 197770" said:
limpetdwarf said:
500--1000LY is a long way to go. Exploration is only nice in theory:

First you need to get lots of money to get a decent ship to use for exploring. Then you need to do a lot of engineering to increase the pathic jump range. Then you need to go get at least a Guardian FSD to increase the still pathetic jump range, and even though the jump range is better than it was, it remains pathetic.

"Haresus, post: 8810720, said
Nah, this is wrong.

I took a Dolphin with no Engineering, and probably sub-optimal exploration modules, and I went almost all the way to Sag A*, then to Colonia, and then back to the bubble. Made enough money to become a billionaire, and basically never had to worry about money ever again.

It didn't require any grinding, or an expensive ship, or engineering, or the Guardian FSD. If your goal is to reach a far-away place in as few jumps as possible, yeah, you want all of that, but that isn't exploring, it's just space tourism. If you want to explore? There's plenty of exploration to be done in the galaxy, and you don't need a very good ship for it. Just a fuel scoop and some patience.
I found my first discovery planet and System in a Dolphin no Engineering INSIDE THE BUBBLE.
I do now have both a L4 & 5 G5 FSD (RANGE) and a Guardian G3 Booster but I don't use them for "exploration". I use them to get mined stuff back to the bubble to sell with the minimum of jumping since I mine outside the bubble to avoid pirates.

I EXPLORE by picking something 500 ly outside the bubble, plotting a course to it using minimum fuel (short jumps). When I get there, I turn around and return to the starting point UN-VISITED MINIMUM FUEL (short jumps) and time the final jump to exceed the 20 LY so I can sell.
Then repeat..

If I am traveling even inside the Bubble I set NOT VISITED and MINIMUM FUEL so I collect Exploration on the way.

My opinion only. It isn't "exploration" when you are jumping 500 LY and looking at one system and then doing it again.
 
500--1000LY is a long way to go. Exploration is only nice in theory:

First you need to get lots of money to get a decent ship to use for exploring. Then you need to do a lot of engineering to increase the pathic jump range. Then you need to go get at least a Guardian FSD to increase the still pathetic jump range, and even though the jump range is better than it was, it remains pathetic. It remains particularly pathetic on a ship you might want to use for combat, so that's kinda boring because you're stuck in the system you happend to be in and those that are one jump away. Maybe a community event comes up and you might want to go there to do some combat, but it's just too far away. By the time you have done all that, you're not really interested in exploring anymore because you have explored a lot of systems others have already explored before you, but yet you needed to do it again for some reason. You may have already mapped a planet that hasn't been mapped already because you had to jump thousands of LYs all over the galaxy to some remote location where you were told you could make money by mining and back to some place that hopefully pays a decent price for the few minerals you got. You can't even take a break because if you get logged out, when you come back you end up somewhere close to where you were rather than were you were, and now NPC pirates show up when go back into the ring and shoot out down because you now have some cargo, and there's nothing you could do about it. Next time you go back to that place to make some more money, you find that the developers have broken mining even more such that there aren't any of the minerals you wanted to mine around. At that point you're basically done with mining, too, because it just sucks. If you're lucky, you happened to get enough money to do other things, like engineering, but they all turn out to suck badly one way or another.

And if you do explore, you are forced to use the system scanner, which is a stupid and repetetive task that is better left to a computer. The scanner is a pain to use with a HOTAS and still awful to use with the xbox controller --- and do you really want to look at every irrelevant rocky body and gas giant? What for? I certainly don't. Why isn't the scanning process automated and instead only points out those bodies that may be of interest to you, like ones that might be worthwhile to do a surface scan on because they might yield valuable map data?

I just can't be bothered to go exploring after all that. Why would I? It's just another thing that's wrong in this game, like so many other things. Then after all that painful struggle, a community event comes up which isn't too far away and could be some fun to do some combat, but since the event is so badly made, there is not combat to be found. And that point, I quit playing because it just sucks --- and not for the first time.

So yeah, go exploring if you want to. I can't be bothered anymore. That is how this game goes. Sure you could go exploring, by all means, because in theory, it sounds fun --- but it isn't. You might discover more irrelvant rocky bodies and gas giants like the hundreds or thousands you have "discovered" before when you tried to get to the point where you could go exploring.

I don't know anyone who is not ahead of me. And what does it matter. Someone who isn't ahead might not be able to help me with what I'm trying to do because they don't know any more than I do.

What's the signifance of Hutton Orbital? I've traded rare goods and they didn't yield any unusual profits. Flying long distances means I have the throttle on full because supercruise doesn't let me go at maximum speed, and I tend to fall asleep in my chair and miss the moment in which I need to take the throttle back so I don't overshoot the target. And/or I switch the monitor from the xbox to the computer and do something else while waiting to arrive. The long flight also means there isn't much profit to be made because the flight takes so much time.

65000LY means at least 1300 jumps. I'm not gona torture myself like that, especially not just to be able to say I've been there.

50000LY means at least 1000 jumps. I'm not going to go to such lengths just to pin more blueprints. I don't know how about neutron stars other than that they are very dangerous and that I better don't don't go there.

Powerplay seems just another grind, so why not avoid it? I don't see any point in avoiding it if it allows me to get something useful, either. And yes, it seems that the shields are the only really useful item you can get from powerplay. But I can't really tell because I can't be bothered to grind so much as to get all items that there are in order to compare them myself.

And what's the point of powerplay anyway other than that? I didn't even know that I needed to sign up for it if I hadn't happened to watch a video about getting the shields.

Here's another example: The first or one of the first engineers requires meta alloys. You can travel the galaxy for a 100 or a 1000 lifetimes or more and you may still never find any. How much fun is that? I don't want to have to read everthing instead of playing. But you have to spend more time reading and searching for information than you can spend playing. How much is fun is that?

So where is the fun in ED? Lowering prices for some minerals to begin with and adjust other prices or rewards is not going to make it fun. Fixing all the issues might, and then it won't matter if doing one thing pays more than doing another.
I regret to say that it sounds like Elite Dangerous isn't the game you were looking for.

I do agree that the FSS controls are clunky.

There is one station that sells meta-alloys but it is years since I first needed them so I cannot remember how I came by that knowledge but it was before there was any point in buying Horizons.

Some people seem to believe that Powerplay is the whole point of the game, I don't see that myself but that is part of why I won't do it just to claim one of the rewards, but that is just me not a playstyle recommendation.
 
While I usually don't post, I have to ask.

Have you ever explored? Or played with friends? Or gone to Hutton or Beagle? Or even just to Colonia? Have you interacted with PowerPlay at all? Have you engaged with this game beyond "Credits shiny"?
Hutton: 90 minutes of waiting is not gameplay.
Beagle: Jump-honk-scooping for a few hours is not gameplay.
Colonia: See Beagle point, just 40k LY closer.
Exploring: Radio button simulator - not for everyone. I do enjoy space golf though.
Powerplay: Get token in batches of 10, wait 10 minutes and get 10 more. Or throw some "credits shiny" at it and get them now. Else wait 4 weeks to get the goodies.
Playing with friends is great fun, be it mining, Bounty hunting or AX combat.

While travel is an essential part of any space game, there is a fine line between gameplay, and making the player wait unnecessarily.
 
What makes you think I haven't? I have. But what to do about end-game content is another matter entirely.
It's really not. They'll mess around with incomes again and again and again and it'll never be good enough because it's not addressing the underlying issue. Space legs will bring people back for a bit, just as every other big feature has done but eventually the novelty will wear off and everyone will drift away again because the core issues the game has had since launch continue to go unacknowledged.
 
It's really not. They'll mess around with incomes again and again and again and it'll never be good enough because it's not addressing the underlying issue. Space legs will bring people back for a bit, just as every other big feature has done but eventually the novelty will wear off and everyone will drift away again because the core issues the game has had since launch continue to go unacknowledged.

Which core issues? It seems the core issue is that ED is a game, and therefore bound to entertain until we lose interest and drift off to play something else.

More precisely, it seems to me that there really aren't any underlying issues. Rather, there is a bunch of game features that can be improved. But the core model must be good, since we are some that have played this for almost 7 years if you count mucking about with the Alpha scenarios. If just the many tacked-on features (don't make me list them again. Ah ok, if you twist my arm: Powerplay, CQC, Engineering, Exploration and Mining loops, Crime and Punishment, CODEX, Multicrew, NPC Crew) were made to mesh with each other, the game would seem more coherent. Also, FD could take a lesson from Blizzard and ruthlessly incorporate their own takes on 3rd party tools in the game: If INARA and EDDB are so useful, make in-game versions of them!

Any game making it this far has reinvented itself from time to time, gaining and losing players in the process. At least FD hasn't so far make our "progress" be reset every so often with yet another gaudy expansion to somehow fulfill our need to do the same-old for another season or two.

:D S
 
Great job, FDev, you outdid yourselves. Just more nerfs with only 2 day's notice, instead of first buffing other activities as people have asked.
In an attempt to do some trading with my Fleet Carrier, I bought 4000 LTDs for 1.4M right before the last huge less-than-24-hour-notice economy nerf, planning to make a margin of 100k ferrying them to the sell location. That unannounced update screwed me over completely, so I've been waiting to see if FDev would revert some part of it so I could finally sell my cargo. BUT NO, LET'S MAKE IT WORSE. Now there's an artificial cap of 700k? Thanks for the 2.8 BILLION loss.

Edit: I wouldn't be upset if I took such a loss as part of the game. But when the devs artificially alter the economy while you're basically in the middle of a transaction, it really sucks. FDev, if you see this and there's any restitution you could give me for what happened, I'd really appreciate it.
 
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My opinion only. It isn't "exploration" when you are jumping 500 LY and looking at one system and then doing it again.

I wouldn't do it that way, either, I'd try to get far away and start from there. I never intentionally used small jumps and if I was to go out and explore, I'd probably use them. There's no point in jumping 50 LY every time when the purpose of the trip is to explore lots of systems.
 
I regret to say that it sounds like Elite Dangerous isn't the game you were looking for.

I've thought about that before. It's the perfect game for me. If only some of the things I have mentioned were fixed, I'd play it all the time.

Why do you think I'm posting in this thread so much?
 
Which core issues?
The game is a really good flight model and impressive cosmological simulation, with incredible presentation, tied to an underlying "simulation" of a galactic civilisation that would have seemed basic 20 years ago. Nothing feels real or immersive because it's all just cardboard cutouts designed to give a good first impression but not hold up to repeated scrutiny, which is unfortunate because the game mostly involves repeatedly scrutinising them.

Just tinkering with player incomes is not going to make people happy with the game, as evidenced by the hundred or so times they've needed to do it in the six years the game has been out. They won't find the magical sweet spot that keeps people playing long term this time around either.
I've thought about that before. It's the perfect game for me. If only some of the things I have mentioned were fixed, I'd play it all the time.

Why do you think I'm posting in this thread so much?
Yeah, if the game wasn't so close to being great I probably wouldn't care. I really wish I could see metrics for player retention and satisfaction because aside from the handful of super vocal forum posters who simultaneously hold the contradictory positions of "the game is fine actually, don't play it if you don't like it" and "all the biggest ships need to cost more and careers need to pay less so that we can trap players for as long as possible" I don't know anyone who isn't frustrated with how the game turned out.
 
Something I would like to see in future is a better approach to the loss of exploration data.
When a cmdr is destroyed why can't their exploration data persist in a black box that pings the cmdr its location with a countdown for 7 days before it disappears? This would allow cmdrs that have an oopsie moment out in the black the opportunity to return and retrieve it.
If they were destroyed by another player, that player could then hoover up the black box but be unable to sell the data for 7 days (active game time), all the while pinging their location to the cmdr they stole it from.

I have no idea how technically challenging this is within the game engine but it could make for some fun dynamic gameplay and potentially save cmdrs exploring for extended periods from losing weeks or months of work to a silly mistake.
 
Something I would like to see in future is a better approach to the loss of exploration data.
When a cmdr is destroyed why can't their exploration data persist in a black box that pings the cmdr its location with a countdown for 7 days before it disappears? This would allow cmdrs that have an oopsie moment out in the black the opportunity to return and retrieve it.
If they were destroyed by another player, that player could then hoover up the black box but be unable to sell the data for 7 days (active game time), all the while pinging their location to the cmdr they stole it from.

I have no idea how technically challenging this is within the game engine but it could make for some fun dynamic gameplay and potentially save cmdrs exploring for extended periods from losing weeks or months of work to a silly mistake.

Black boxes to recover otherwise lost data as "corpse runs" have been suggested since the game launched. I'm a keen supporter of that idea.

Making the data available for player killers, on the other hand, is a horrible idea. It basically means easy income for gankers, especially when the data can just be sold at the nearest fleet carrier. Showing the victim where the attacker is located for a week will only add insult to injury, as the chance that an explorer can somehow find and kill a PvP capable opponent is slim to none. Also, why would they wish to do so? They were exploring, not fighting.

:D S
 
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