Game loses something by not forcing Open play

[Foreverowned]

Personally i don't care if another player goes solo, saves up credits for a cool ship and then enters multiplayer, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[BoldyBald]

The switching bit is brilliant.

Look at WoW and EVE.. Want to get ganked by a bunch of kids and unemployed smelly bums after a hard day of work?

You get a lot of negative stuff. 2 forms of progress? twice the work.. Don't have the time for that, must hire power-leveling services.. Having some poor Chinese lady led her child die because she's to busy power-leveling my second character.

Not to mention it also impacts on support.
~ I remember when I was killed (or ganked; he had extreme rare kit for his level) on WoW by some guy, while I didn't do anything to provoke him. Later I was playing on my main character and recognised the same guy. I gave him quite some flak back. I even killed him in the middle of an enemy outpost where he thought he could hide. ~ Half a hour later some GameMaster was talking to me in game that my name was in violation with ToS and I had to change it. It was a nick I had played with for a long time and was very similar to the one I use here. ~ I had quite a big hunch about this action was the result of this kid that probably went moaning to support that he couldn't play.

The moral of this story is that you need support personnel to handle these kind of 'problems'. I filled an official complaint about the GameMaster, but wasn't helped in any way.

I did try EVE at some stage too. I found it extremely boring and slow. The time locks on training were just killing it for me. There is no way to progress faster, when you are a better player. There is no way it can be an interesting game for somebody that starts to play 'late'.

In E: D it doesn't matter if you start to play 'late'. You can do it in your own pace, in your own manner and in your kind of environment. It is easy to outrun an Anaconda in a Sidey. Sure the Anaconda has more fire-power, but it's slow and sluggish. I downed a NPC Federal Dropship and Python in a Cobra. I downed a NPC Cobra in a sidewinder.

The only thing I agree on, is maybe the ease of switching should be altered. Like only when docked or something like that. Aside from that it's a brilliant move of Frontier Developments.

 

[Toxic_Waster]

Yes, yes, when you're done characterizing everyone who disagrees with you as somehow being awful human beings can you at least admit that what you define as "good" is entirely arbitrary and may even be a minority view :O

I think our discussion came to the logical and expected deadend. Well it did few posts ago I dont know why I was so merciful

 

[Zmidponk]

For some reason, playing online with other players to you means ''pvp''.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, most of the people complaining about the mode switching are complaining because you can avoid PvP that way, and therefore solo is 'easy mode', according to them.

To me this game was an online game from the beginning

Then you really need to learn to research games you're considering buying better. ED has never been an online game, per se - it has been a game with online features. If you don't get the difference, Borderlands is another game with online features, but not an online game, per se. In other words, Borderlands allows you to choose how much you play online or offline, from levelling your character and playing through the entire game in single-player (several times, if you so wish), to doing the same completely in multiplayer, or anything in-between. The only difference is that ED still actually needs a net connection for universe updates, whereas Borderlands can be completely offline, if you so choose.

and i want to meet as many players in it as possible and i do believe that by having this ghost mode ED losses something.

Such as...?

There would be no discussion if there were an offline version for people who only play alone and a normal online version for us but, instead there is this.
As i understand the reason why some people want to play alone is, ''online = obviously griefing'' i understand that, in ED if you die in type 9 with full cargo that is a big loss, but this can be fixed by better insurance options and better safe system policing.

Actually, there is a multitude of reasons why any particular person might want to play in solo - including reasons why they might want to play solo today, but in open tomorrow. And then in solo again the day after. The current system allows people to choose this. The people arguing against allowing this, by and large, seem to think that, as soon as you switch to solo mode, you start getting handed free money, free ships, free high-powered equipment, etc, etc, etc, and complain about the solo players using this stuff from 'easy mode' to play in 'hard mode'. The fact is that, in solo mode, you have to do the same things to earn this money/ships/equipment/whatever as you do in open mode, it's just that you're not going to encounter other players whilst doing it. Which, frankly, isn't really all that much different.

 

[Logical Viking]

I think the quality of resistance and threat from an NPC compared to a skilled person is much different.

 

[T@F]

Not sure anyone one else said it but BoldyBald came up with a good solution tbh.
You can only switch when docked.
I would be happy doing it that way.

 

[CdrTwisted]

It's sweet how the anti-switching poster is so concerned with fairness. Because the only objection anyone can come up with is that it's not fair that someone can get credits and equipment in group or solo then go open. And pvp in an open world game is all about fairness, as any fule kno.

 

[Logical Viking]

It has nothing to do with fairness. Quite the contrary, it's already very fair. I, you, everyone is free to grind for CR and ships in solo, free from any human challenger. And when in Rome (as they say)...

If that's what is the standard, it's what many will likely do. It's kind of my whole thing that what is the point of having two CONNECTED modes of play when it will be easier (less risk, no humans, however you feel good to say it) to collect items in solo which can then be used to fight in the connected mode? In that way, there is really no incentive to ever join the open servers unless it's to hunt with your fancy kit or you are a masochist if not already set up well yourself.

Again I repeat, I have no problem with those that have hermit tendencies and prefer solo play. I won't even argue it puts anyone at a disadvantage because we can all do it (switching back and forth to kit up for battle). The issue is simply that it cheapens the open play for anyone who intended to play the whole entire game there with whatever risk came with it from the human element. No one has been able to give a good reason as to why both game modes NEED to be connected except that they don't want to have to buy stuff twice in game or it's for new guys to learn on.

My opinion is that's weak. There are those on this forum extolling that the game should be tough and not "finished" in days or weeks or be played until the end of time (I'm exaggerating obviously). It's my opinion, and just as I don't agree with the arguments for the connected modes, no one has to agree with my opinion. I am not feelings hurt by this as some people seem to get here. I came to this thread just to try to understand the argument for and against. I guess I have heard it. I'm good with that (I have no choice).

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

I was thinking about this overnight (too much brain space)...

Here are the scenarios as I see them that might be 'unfair' for a better word...

1. Trader gets hit on by a Combatier. By definition he has to be clean. He's being massacred. In order to escape he logs out, lasting the 15 seconds with his bare skin, logs in Solo and limps to station. Now Solo mode was sorta designed for this kind of scenario, but I think it's on the edge. Most Combatiers would cry foul of this, denied their kill...

2. Trader gets hit on by a Combatier, but he's bit off more than he can chew and this trader is wiping his backside. The Combatier bugs out, lasting the 15 seconds logout timer to slink away. If for some reason he is still clean, he can jump into solo and run for the station. This is definitely cheating, whether or not he ends up going in to solo or going for a cuppa to wait it out.

3. Pilot logs on, decided he doesn't want to meet anyone today and goes solo/group. Another day he does Open. Meh. Don't have a problem with this.

4. Trade gets fragged and pays up his insurance. Tries again and get's fragged by the same combatier. Pays insurance and decides to so the run solo this time round. Afterward rejoins open, once he's recuperated his insurance loses. This is what Solo/Groups appears to have been designed for. Definitely don't have a problem with this.

Maybe the problem is not so much that there are different modes, but that someone should be able to log off whilst in a combat scenario. Maybe logging off in combat should be considered a premature eject, leaving the ship to be destroyed and the bounty/kill to be counted, and that would solve the switch/cheat problem.

There is no big benefit to Open (yet) and the only real disadvantage to Solo/Closed is less experience against human CMDRs (in group you can still do co-operative.) Until that changes there I do not see any reason why the two should be segregated.

 

[T@F]

No one has been able to give a good reason as to why both game modes NEED to be connected except that they don't want to have to buy stuff twice in game or it's for new guys to learn on.

I could give another good reason.
Bandwidth caps.
When there close to there cap they can go solo and still able to play,once the cap has been reset they can go back online.
(Btw There are a lot of ppl on caps nowadays.not everyone can have unlimited.)
or
ppl tethering from there mobile phone to laptop while travelling say long distance on a train to work or on holiday,then going back online when they get back home.

You asked for one good reason i just gave you two maybe three,i'm sure there's many more but it's early in the morning for me atm.

Anyway nothing going to change now,mods might as well close this thread as it's just going in circles.

 

[StayFrosty]

Yes, they are playing the game *they paid for* and *they want* - not the game you insist they play.

You have been told time and time again, this is a remake of an old Solo game, so that is how some view it - you're never going to change their minds.

You've been told why people who want multiplayer wont use open play and only do private groups - it's not that you don't get it, because you've shown you do understand. You just keep bringing up your issue of wanting forced open play so you've waited a few pages and come back again to start your argument again. (anyone else can go back 10ish pages and check for themselves)

Did I say anything about "forcing" people to do anything? I'm not certain.

It seems I only explained why it was a problem, and how reasons for solo and group play are so ridiculously negligible, they don't really seem worth putting the entire community at stake for it. As for "how you view it" or "what you expect", that's not my worry, my worry is that open play could be bad. What you do is up to you, I'm only asking that you consider what's at stake.

That it could be a real catastrophe for the game. I hope it won't be, and that's all I can do.

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I can't speak for everyone, but I've never been attacked as I leave a starport by an NPC... nor when lining up to land. I have by a human player...

And I've never been shot down by a player-controlled station myself. Obviously there are differences, but they're minimal, and their occurrences, even more so.

And I just don't see such minor points being used as justification for such radical decisions.

 

[StayFrosty]

They're not really that similar though, are they? NPC's are programmed for combat against players that is consistent with FDEV's intentions for how the game should play. PC's on the other hand, are very good at finding exploits and behaviors that an NPC will never do.

For example, a player with a clean record out mining an asteroid might expect to have an NPC pirate jump them. But no NPC pirate is going to sneak up and intentionally fly through the miner's laser beam to tag the player with a bounty on top of the kill. A player though, will do that (and have done it).

That's the kind of thing that players in Solo and private Groups would like to avoid. If it turns out that exploits like this are closed off, then maybe more players will join All Online. It's too early to tell yet, because some of these exploits are still out there. And you and I both know that some players in All Online will do their best to find every one of them.

There are very few exploits, even fewer that really deserve that name, and fewer yet where the so-called "victim" isn't partly responsible. I'm not denying the existence of such things, I'm only insisting that they're rarely ever seen, and hardly a valid argument to justify splitting the community in two, when the expected consequence of this is precisely that those problems will get out of hand, precisely because no one wants to keep a hand on it.

I feel like I've said the exact same thing a hundred times already, but I'll say it again: the existence of "griefing" and other nasty things is laughable, but if you keep avoiding it, it could become worse than in your worst nightmares. And regardless, griefing will never fully disappear, so if people refuse to play in open because of the smallest griefing possibility, they'll just never play it, beause it can hardly be better than it is now. That aside, NPC behavior is pretty consistent with that of players, so yes, players and NPCs have way more similarities than differences.

Your premise is based on a 1v1 encounter. Even without the Wing mechanic, players in All Online will be more likely to fly in small groups, an option not open to Solo players. We may eventually get NPC wingmen but the FDEV's haven't even mentioned the status of that feature yet, and it sure won't be here on release.

If a player doesn't already have a group of friends to fly with in All Online, that's another possible reason why some would like to avoid All Online. It means a player won't have to deal with fighting groups of other players at once, where any single ship, even an Anaconda, is at a severe disadvantage.

You might counter that this player should just get with the program and find some friends to form up with. But some players don't want to do that, at least not all the time. Sometimes people just want to play vs. the environment and not be forced to team up. Or alternatively, look for some teammates when they do feel like it. Play the way you want to on a given day, without having to make a permanent choice. The ability to do that was a selling point in this game from day one.

At some point, if players keep on refusing to play the game in a way that makes them successful at playing it, there isn't much more we can do for them, because it almost seems like they don't want to play the game, and they can't run away from that forever.

Still, I'm not seeing how it makes such a difference, again. We're still talking about things that happen in the event of the rare occurrence of a player group, which itself depends on the rare occurrence of a player encounter, and even then, it's still not different from the wings of NPCs found near extraction sites and nav beacons. And as soon as player wings will be implemented, you can be sure you'll be seeing plenty NPC wings aswell: every change to players affects NPCs too, and vice versa, because the two are linked. What will be the excuse next?

And then, there are still consequences to PvP, designed specifically to accomodate all playstyles together, and it's handled in a way rarely ever seen before in an online game, but apparently it's not enough, they'd rather split themselves from others in a way rarely ever seen before in an online game. It's like the more efforts are made, the harder it gets, but then I'm still wondering what more could you possibly want.

All I'm seeing is people isolating themselves for exaggerated reasons, and whose behavior leads directly to making those reasons more and more real. I don't know what to say more, those are well-understood ways player communities evolve, you only need to accept it and solve it how it should be solved, there's no other way.

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Well good luck with that as its impossible. You can only come up a with a ruleset that you think or rather hope will suite more people that it doesn't. I don't think the perfect game has ever been written.

Obviously that comes with compromises. But still, plenty games did it. It's only because some imbeciles that didn't understand anything about video games thought the way old games did it was "wrong", that they created the modern split between PvE and PvP which comes with so many more flaws.

But this model definitely works, and proof is, it's working pretty well in open play right now.

 

[StayFrosty]

that's the same argument the NRA use and it holds no water for them either, the problem with it in this context is simply the fact that you cannot tell in advance if the additional players will help out those in trouble or join in on the side of the person causing the trouble.

more players can easily equal more problems and for every extra player you introduce to the scenario the results become harder to judge.

What exactly is the "NRA"?

 

[Robert Maynard]

What exactly is the "NRA"?

The National Rifle Association of America - a gun advocacy lobby group.

 

[StayFrosty]

Yea, if you say so.

I've read this entire thread from page 1, I've been around for most of it - each time I've come up with a counter point to you, you've ignored me - like so many others who have tried to force you to show your true colours, you have not even acknowledged our existence, you just carried on posting your reasons why I should be a victim of your ego and gank squads in a locked open.

I do like how you post a few opinions and wait a few pages, for people to forget you - then you start again, with the same bull, just with new people.

I've been reading all your posts in this thread, you barely replied to me three times. And it seems I replied to you everytime, maybe it is you who missed one of my replies? After all, you have been ignoring most of my replies proving you wrong, but whatever. If you think I missed something, point it out, and I'll reply. Or are you confusing me with someone else with similar opinions? Leopard maybe with which you've been discussing quite intensively?

Regardless, you seem desperate to prove I'm some playerkiller/ganker/whatever, but I'm not. You're acting like I want to force others to do something, but I'm not either. I'm only saying how things are likely to evolve based on the current state, warning that it's ugly, and encouraging people to play more in open. That's all. What you do is up to you, I have no control over things and don't delude myself into thinking I do.
If you had read my posts, maybe you would have understood that, and maybe even understood that there is no such thing as me expressing my "ego", nor are there "gank squads" seeing as players willing to play with each other have trouble doing so. Apparently you don't seem to understand the words you use either, as "ganking" is a contraction of "gang killing", so a "gank squad" makes little sense. The only noteworthy thing in your posts is the idea that Elite: Dangerous is a remake of a singleplayer game, and that multiplayer is a "bonus feature". Yeah, right, are you going to be telling me next, like some others, that combat isn't such a big part of the game? Your vision of the game seems to go against what the game itself is.

As for the rest, I simply can't be there 24/7, I'm sorry I have a life. I'm sorry days pass between me posting, I'll try to be faster.
Anything you wanted to say about the current matter?

 

[Sharky]

I admit I have not read this entire thread. But isnt it moot as we have been told there will only be open play in final release?
And with the size of the galaxy its not hard to travel many hundreds of light years in any direction so you will be extremely unlikely to run into another player anyway.
I just hope there are still npc's out there to build up combat skills on untill you return to populated space.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

What exactly is the "NRA"?

National Rivers Authority

I guess they have gotten a load of power I was unaware of and grown beyond their initial purview. Who knows the power they will have in 1000 years time.

A bit like the ATF maybe which have gone way beyond tobacco now!.

either that or the National Rifle association..... but I suspect those environmentalists myself

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

I admit I have not read this entire thread. But isnt it moot as we have been told there will only be open play in final release?
And with the size of the galaxy its not hard to travel many hundreds of light years in any direction so you will be extremely unlikely to run into another player anyway.
I just hope there are still npc's out there to build up combat skills on untill you return to populated space.

<blink> When? Where?

 

[T@F]

I admit I have not read this entire thread. But isnt it moot as we have been told there will only be open play in final release?
And with the size of the galaxy its not hard to travel many hundreds of light years in any direction so you will be extremely unlikely to run into another player anyway.
I just hope there are still npc's out there to build up combat skills on untill you return to populated space.

When did they say that?
As far as i know they took away offline but solo or open is here to stay.
as the devs know not everyone has perfect connection or unlimited bandwidth,and solo is the only option to lessen the burden for us.

it's not all about having an advantage or ganking.

 

[Sharky]

I must have confused only online as being open play.. but whatever..the rest of my post still stands.

I am glad its only online... iff you play offline then you update stats when you log in it leaves game open to cheaters manipulating the saved data between logins...much harder if saved to cloud in ongoing manner and conflicting data would flag the player for investigation.