Indeed, anyone playing ED for long enough time probably has billions in the bank anyway. No deterrent. So maybe losing engineered parts would be more of a deterrent than money. How many ganks could you afford if notoriety earned you rebuy of stock parts only? Deterrent then?
Gankers vs ATR?
- Thread starter McDark
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- atr crime & punishment ganking
Indeed, anyone playing ED for long enough time probably has billions in the bank anyway. No deterrent. So maybe losing engineered parts would be more of a deterrent than money. How many ganks could you afford if notoriety earned you rebuy of stock parts only? Deterrent then?
This is as close to that as you can get without being unfair- in essence ATR become a persistent threat if the killer is sloppy and keeps on killing- ATR then follow them all over in a way that works with how EDs instancing is set up.
The 'problem' is that killing itself is not defined as being wrong- how do you determine a 'good' murder from a 'bad' one? In the end you can't, so the system has to work across PvE and PvP really, IMO at least.
Hmm... sounds like they need a buff
ATR are fine as they are capability wise, they just need to be employed better and that security in general needs to be rethought.
I have envisioned that ATR could have some secret tech that they use to keep you in the area, basically an FSD jammer, so for you to escape, you have to get away from them... not always doable in all ships as ATR can be pretty fast too, so you would have to destroy/disable the ATR with the device if you are to make a successful escape...
I do not feel ATR have to be fair... it is us players who have to be more clever when dealing with ATR... and I would love that if I am such a notorious outlaw, that ATR should be out to gank me in their jurisdiction mercilessly... until I increased my bad reputation enough to have them stop doing this, as I am no longer on their top wanted outlaws to hunt...
This all goes back to the fundamental failings of the crime and punishment system in this game. Not only does it fail to address utterly lawless behaviour by presenting us with real consequences for attacking other players, it provides attackers with no real "lifestyle" to speak of. Said it before and will say it again - being punished for your transgressions can become a part of the game's culture that benefits everyone.
I was a -10 sec status pirate in EVE for years. I couldn't enter high security space because of all my randsoming antics. I lived with others who had the same status in unregulated space. It was a conscious choice that was made, and we lived with those consequences. So did anyone who strayed into our territory. That is how you create an interesting and diverse fabric.
Elite just sort of shrugs and looks the other way.
I was a -10 sec status pirate in EVE for years. I couldn't enter high security space because of all my randsoming antics. I lived with others who had the same status in unregulated space. It was a conscious choice that was made, and we lived with those consequences. So did anyone who strayed into our territory. That is how you create an interesting and diverse fabric.
Elite just sort of shrugs and looks the other way.
Firmly my opinion:
My 'problem' as such is that in ED people don't take responsibility for themselves, and when it does go wrong they ask for ever more draconian measures when in reality they need to realise a lot of survival is down to them.
All ED security is reactive: ATR under certain conditions appear instantly but even then thats not enough. With reverb lasers you still have about a twenty second window to waste the mark or for the target to evade and HW. If you build right, fly right and know what to do you can escape...it won't always work but its better than flying in a straight line for 90 seconds hoping the cops will help- because those cops will scan the victim first and then think about the criminal
The best C + P can get is to be reactive (like now) and then use that trigger to discourage further killing by making life more complicated elsewhere. Right now ATR act locally and is largely pointless.
In the end someone has to die to set it off...the trick, William Potter, is not minding its you- or even better it not being you to begin with
The tricky bit is reliably telling the difference between a gank and any other clean vs wanted fight in a way that doesn't just lead to further exploits.
It'd be really quite silly, for example, if someone got a 500 credit trespass bounty off a surface scan mission, then got attacked by some joker in an Adder, and got insta-killed by ATR for blowing them up. Similarly if a pirate is pulling traders over and demanding cargo, they should be allowed to blow up a bounty hunter who tries to go after them.
Plus there's potential for exploits using cheap ships. We have something approaching this level of penalty for murder in place for attacks around stations - and it just led to a whole new way of getting players killed.
You still have to die in the first place, though.
And the other thing is, for ganking of poorly defended traders, an unengineered Vulture is probably sufficient anyway. G3 engineering on top of that is basically free in terms of material costs for any established player, and G4 is still pretty cheap for 95% of the effectiveness of G5. It's not like it's a career that needs a max-engineered build...
It might cause a trend towards slightly more disposable ships, but it wouldn't really change much in terms of who died and who survived.
750 mil is nothing these days. It's an evening mining LTDs.
That is so true, but imagine if whenever they logged back in, the ATR would be there waiting for them, and this would work even if they change game mode to solo/PG... now their actions do reflect a proper response about it... the casual ganker is not equipped to handle this, and then the real outlaws players would love this, as this could be a new challenge to overcome.
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to add, by that I mean, I might blow you up for the 'lulz', but you are actually just a stepping stone to trigger the ATR to come after me... so lets say on your rebuy, you get a notice that ATR is sent after me, and you start to wonder what good does that do... but atleast you know that something is being done about it... and hopefully, I end up on he rebuy screen too.. well you would never know, but upon reading the forums, you would get a pretty picture of all the salt the gankers pours out over this injustice to their fun... as they end up constaly harrassed by ATR etc. unable to keep killing unwillingly victims.
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I feel like that's a bandage. As I mentioned, I think that the real way to combat casual ganking is to turn the casual ganker into a career criminal. The game should see them as a criminal and treat them accordingly in secured space. Notoriety doesn't decay in the real world, nor should it in Elite. If you choose to be a pirate, Elite's universe should regard you as one. If you choose to be a cold killer, the same. Playing chicken with an ATR is one thing. Logging in each day to the consequences of your actions not only addresses the behavior, it sets the stage of real, reactive roleplaying. True criminals living on the outskirts of civilization. Dangerous neighborhoods. Safe havens. It's just so much better than what we have now, which is simple and ineffective response mechanisms that just can't be "improved" much.
I'm in total agreement with this. Much is already in place to facilitate it too. A clean Commander flying cargo to an inhabited anarchy system should be facing the same near suicidal task as a career criminal trying to do business in a high security system. There needs to be an alternative to the Pilot's Federation. Murdering PF pilots non stop in SD, the PF's home system, in no way hurts your ranking with the PF. It is absurd. Enough behavior deemed to be a bad reflection on the PF should get you booted, and anarchy systems (with perhaps a pirate federation or something) should be there to offer relative safety and full services to those who prove themselves useful.
That is very true, but there is no simple fix to get there, we need alot of mechanics in the game to change to make that happen. And as I said before, solving the underlying game flaws regarding being a criminal would in most cases also fix most the problems we today see related to ganking.
But we are on the same page, make being a criminal a doable career with all what that entails and have the game push most criminals out of high sec systems. Imaginge being labeled an outlaw by the Emprire, now visiting any engineer in Imperal space, could become a truly interresting challenge...
I see your point. Last night I got a msg telling me about a mission to go murder sight-seers. I was like 'really?' what sicko just wants to go murder innocents. In some aspects this game is just FU (my opinion).
But then I got thinking, and wondered why have 'laws' at all? Get rid of the cops, remove the ATR, and let everyone have at it without consequence. Get rid of the bounties and warrants.
No 'good vs. evil', just a total amoral universe.
Those who don't want to PvP can go to solo or PG and just slaughter clean NPCs to their heart's content. Those who want to embrace the chaos (PvP) can do so in open and enjoy themselves. Just a thought...
I see your point. Last night I got a msg telling me about a mission to go murder sight-seers. I was like 'really?' what sicko just wants to go murder innocents. In some aspects this game is just FU (my opinion).
But then I got thinking, and wondered why have 'laws' at all? Get rid of the cops, remove the ATR, and let everyone have at it without consequence. Get rid of the bounties and warrants.
No 'good vs. evil', just a total amoral universe.
Those who don't want to PvP can go to solo or PG and just slaughter clean NPCs to their heart's content. Those who want to embrace the chaos (PvP) can do so in open and enjoy themselves. Just a thought...
The irony is you have 'good' players who deliberatley seek out anarchies to kill innocents for mats with no consequences too
High waking out and back is faster.
And less cheaty
In busy areas of space (like the Old Worlds) you find more targets of opportunity, too!