Problem with strict C&P in order to not kill "proper PvP" is that a lot of stuff need to be fixed first and propably destinguish crimes vs npc's from crimes vs players, for example Shinrarta have power play C&P system even if it's not PP system, OTOH systems that are power play preparations work like not power play systems, ie. expansions and controls/HQ's. Devs not announce such mechanics or changes, we don't even know if it's bug or working as intended or if dev's have any will to change other parts of the game to work with more punishing C&P.
Gankers vs ATR?
- Thread starter McDark
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- atr crime & punishment ganking
How could it not deter it if were applied correctly/logically? Unlike balmy mechanics like hot modules and the like?
As you destroy more and more pilots federation members (illegally), and heck even NPCs illegally, your criminal reputation goes up and up. The higher it is, the faster the ATR turn up the moment you start attacking anyone else (in a none Anarchy system), and the more often they randomly interdict and attack you (in non Anarchy systems). [ATR turning up as regards distance from bubble to be decided]
Note 1: Anarchy system should only be systems with an Anarchy government, NOT system with no government.
Note 2: Your reputation should drop over the course of weeks/months to make it actually mean something.
Note 3: Add to this your reputation also meaning more and more stations denying you access, and indeed whole systems - There's another deterrent!
Note 4: Add to this your reputation at some point meaning you being highlighted to other Pilots Federation members as a known psycho, and there being a bounty on you (from the Pilots Federation) - There's another deterrent!
I posted an idea that is essentially if you are not. 10 and get scanned you generate ATR, making them a pan bubble police force. This means you either stop killing or kill without being scanned. This then is fair because you can then use skill to keep on doing what you like but the consequence is any wrong move anywhere will summon them.
While ATR are not instantly lethal to a good ship, they will force you to retreat, and that the HW in out trick will not work,.
One thing I suggested when C&P reform was the hot topic was getting rid of the idea of crimes as such entirely, and replacing it with hostility based on faction rep. Blow up an NPC belonging to a faction, your rep with them takes a serious hit. Get below hostile (I'd have Allied -> Neutral be one kill, Neutral -> Hostile be two, and make Hostile basically uncapped for how deep it goes ... with assault and piracy being a much less severe hit) and you get a bounty on your head from that faction, as well as the current "can't dock" consequences at its stations. Help a faction in election/war state and lose equivalent rep with its opponent. Help a faction outside of a conflict and lose a small amount of rep with any other faction in that system of a different ethos or superpower. (But non-conflict non-aggressive actions won't own their own drop you below Unfriendly).
Any faction you're at least Friendly with, you can "fly its flag", and attacks on you count as attacks on that faction (doesn't matter where the attack takes place, what system, etc.). All fresh accounts start out as Allied with the Pilots' Federation, and flying its flag ... to encourage people to diversify there'd probably need to be benefits like double payouts for running missions for a flagged faction, ability to only change flags infrequently, etc. But of course sticking with the PF would have advantages in that anyone attacking you is risking being shut out of Jameson. On the other side, factions which you're Hostile with will send NPC bounty hunters of increasing strength against you as you get more hostile, at least if you're in their systems.
If you get killed, your killer gets a payment voucher from the factions you're hostile to (probably most players are hostile somewhere, of course, even if it's to the local criminals in a RES) - and those factions decrement hostility by an amount proportional to your rebuy. (To prevent money exploits, the voucher can't exceed your rebuy) Of course, whoever kills you is going to get increased hostility from your flagged faction.
It'd be very possible to have Imperial and Federal partisans, who fight each other, gaining vouchers and further hostility as they win fights - highly welcome in their superpower, hunted on sight in the opposing one.
It's more Politics and Consequences than Crime and Punishment, but I think it would probably work better overall if the goal was to support that sort of conflict-based play. In practice the Elite series has generally been more about "mostly law-abiding" pilots who occasionally do something shady (in terms of what gets in-game rewards and what doesn't) and Elite Dangerous is no exception. For this sort of game a C&P system that mostly acts to chase you off rather than give any permanent consequence is perhaps more appropriate.
Yes, Crime and Punishment, as regards illegal destruction (& attack) of Pilot Federation (& NPC) craft could have been a fairly simple and logical affair and most importantly, could have been (more) effective! But alas, FD design ethos...
I don't remember the exact details, but wasn't there a Nerf to C&P to accommodate people who went on a murder spree with smallest possible FSD equiped to give them that combat/weight edge only find out they couldn't buy fuel in their ship that wasn't capable of jumping to another system?
Unfortunately, the directions they've taken (not to mention they think they fixed C&P with Beyond updates) leave little hope.
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well I do not know if I would call a nerf, but for all the minor things that would put players in an detention center, I got put in there in an mostly E-rated Hauler... almost 300 LY away... for a 500 credit trespass bounty... it took me some 30 minutes to figure out how to get my Hauler to another station where I could buy a fuel scoop, and that allowed then to go to another station to buy a better FSD and also replace those E modules with some lighter D modules, so I could get back faster...
The change was that detention centers would give you outfitting to allow you to buy fuel scoops... so you could get back home again, even if you had terrible jumprange...atleast you had the option to add a fuel scoop and reflect on this on your way back.
I dealt with ATR once while helping to undermine a system. It was a single Vulture I tangled with in a heavily engineered pve fdl I considered invincible unless I got the pilot lord wing assassination where he has four vultures.
Anyway 20 seconds with that ATR vulture I had to get the hell out of dodge. I felt like maybe they were magically buffed with damage and protection far beyond what a player could achieve.
Question is from me, do ATR have abilities and stats that's beyond what any engineered modules could give them?
Anyway 20 seconds with that ATR vulture I had to get the hell out of dodge. I felt like maybe they were magically buffed with damage and protection far beyond what a player could achieve.
Question is from me, do ATR have abilities and stats that's beyond what any engineered modules could give them?
They have reverb cascade effects on their lasers. IIRC, they'll also teleport to keep up with you.
No magical shields etc? I remember laying into that vulture hard and seeing no damage at all.
I'm not sure. I've never stuck around to fight one. I think I remember hearing their shields were engineered.
There should be videos out there on YouTube though.
ATR's design is just incredibly bad.
Not just that they're no actual deterrent to ganking (which they weren't intended to be), but that they completely screw up any sort of coherence in the universe.
There's no sense in them having Reverb Cascade Lasers and literally every military power in the galaxy not having them and employing them. From a strategic and tactical perspective, it'd be like continuing to pursue spears and phalanxes in the era of machine guns and hand grenades. It's "change-the-nature-of-warfare-forever(or at least ship design)" levels of influential.
Not just that they're no actual deterrent to ganking (which they weren't intended to be), but that they completely screw up any sort of coherence in the universe.
There's no sense in them having Reverb Cascade Lasers and literally every military power in the galaxy not having them and employing them. From a strategic and tactical perspective, it'd be like continuing to pursue spears and phalanxes in the era of machine guns and hand grenades. It's "change-the-nature-of-warfare-forever(or at least ship design)" levels of influential.
Imagine fantasizing of Developers stripping other players of tens or hundreds of hours of gameplay because you are butthurt and can't fight them on your own.
If you have a craving for the tears of seal clubbers, what's stopping ya from getting out there and harvesting some pal?
Go get em!Imagine fantasizing of Developers stripping other players of tens or hundreds of hours of gameplay because you are butthurt and can't fight them on your own.
If you have a craving for the tears of seal clubbers, what's stopping ya from getting out there and harvesting some pal?
But that would require doing something yourself.
ATR uses the same weapons type like have all stations (so infact every ingame faction have access to this type of weapon). So it is nothing new in fact. If you want talk about bad logic, there are plenty of different topics where is NPCs presence, and theirs acting, clearly "magical".
None of that excuses the dumb things behind ATR.
There are numerous things which are more or less unlogical for ATR. One from this is ship types and how they appear, then how they act and weapons imo are the last thing which is problem here.
Personally I think that ATR should use mix of different ships with increased strength (numbers) based on system security lvl ... for example starting with one Mamba and one FDL chasing an attacker and then supported with big ships or mix of smaller ships with different loadout. You can have them fully engineered with hitscan weapons (aim of npcs with these weapons is quite good) and this could be enough.
They should have ability enter SC and chase attacker and also there should be lowered timer when attacker re-enter system in some timeframe which also can be based on system security lvl.
This way are criminal still able do theirs business, but there is limited (based on system security) time how long they are able do it "safe".
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ATR is useless in practice; too much damage dished in too short a duration means those who are gank-fodder are usually dead before they can even type "You're real-life psychos & the reason Open is deserted!".