Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

[SystemShift]

(1)
Like I said though, if you want it as an option, I wouldn't care if frontier wanted to put it in, but it would be useless for anything but role playing. The idea you're going to be switching between turret stations on the fly to track a target in 3d space is laughable. It's pure fantasy based on an idea of make believe in your head, it doesn't work as an actual game, hell it wouldn't work in real life. You're not going to have 1 guy running to every gun on a ww2 bomber, they're each going to be on their own gun, which is the only way it would even remotely work in elite as well, but you're also not going to get that many people networked onto 1 ship together. It would also be an incredibly boring experience for Small Beam Turret Gunner #3.


(2)
First person direct turret control also implies arcade style aiming and shooting of a gun, which, even if you had 7 friends to jump into your anaconda, are they really going to have better accuracy than the computer manning the turrets themselves? No, they're not. If their accuracy is worse, why would you ever use crew gunners? Well, either 1) again, role playing, or 2) because manned guns are ridiculously overpowered to make up for their incredibly poor human tracking and time on target.

1. Dont no about every one but I use a button on my joystick to switch wepons and that is how I would switch turrets instantly .

2. Who sead anything about direct turret control ? just put the 3d view we are getting and put it in the turret, no diferent to the 3D view except its in or on the turret.

 

[Loboguará]

We can travel faster than light. any argument about in-game tech being surreal is invalid

 

[Runis]

I guess FDev will wait until this thread is 100+ pages until they respond to the question in the title?

 

[MyHammer]

I guess FDev will wait until this thread is 100+ pages until they respond to the question in the title?

FD hardly ever does answer directly in the threads (unless they started it themselfs). However if the noise level of a thread is significant (and has some valid arguments) they might change a thing or two in the game.

 

[Vasea Azure]

I guess FDev will wait until this thread is 100+ pages until they respond to the question in the title?

What kind of answer would you expect? Like... seriously. They made up their minds on how turret view will work, I dont think it will change any time soon/ever.

 

[CylonSurfer]

I wasn't trying to be snarky and 'win a fight on the internet'. I don't want anyone unhappy with something that they enjoy, but what solution can you think of that doesn't have all the problems I've gone over? Specifically direct turret view, because that is either broken in VR, or useless in added value. How do you have a direct turret control that is usable in VR for the vast majority of players? How do you have direct turret control that is better than just letting the computer do it?

If you wonder about why the devs years ago would say what they did about being in the cockpit, then have a tactical view like that, I think you have to look at the realities I was bringing up. I imagine they ran into the exact same issues, that #1 direct turret control had no value, and #2 it wouldn't work with VR.


Again though, I don't want anyone unhappy with something that they really like, and if frontier wanted to offer the choice of switching between the 3rd person tactical view directly, or having it appear on a large screen in front of you while you sit in the chair, I would be totally happy with that. I think that is really the option that would make the most amount of people happy, and no one would lose out. You give people the option of viewing it directly, or viewing it while grounded in the cockpit on a screen. That wouldn't really be any different than old flight sims letting you select direct hud modes, cockpit modes, 3d cockpit modes, etc. You would choose what you prefer but everyone gets the same info.

I only play games in VR, and I only play VR in first person where possible. I don't see any issues with a wrap around screen which is enabled in front of gunner when he / she enables turret control, much like the starport menu screen but instead shows a turrents camera, with buttons bound to a players stick / or throttle to select different turrents so you can hot swap between turret cameras. Personally I see this as much more cooperative crew game play which relies on communication between crew members. It would look more like the concept art and fall inline with the 'play the game from the cockpit feel' of the rest of the game. I see that as lots of fun, personally.

 

[Devari]

I only play games in VR, and I only play VR in first person where possible. I don't see any issues with a wrap around screen which is enabled in front of gunner when he / she enables turret control, much like the starport menu screen but instead shows a turrents camera, with buttons bound to a players stick / or throttle to select different turrents so you can hot swap between turret cameras. Personally I see this as much more cooperative crew game play which relies on communication between crew members. It would look more like the concept art and fall inline with the 'play the game from the cockpit feel' of the rest of the game. I see that as lots of fun, personally.

The problem is that this would require actual effort from the devs to design an appropriate UI that maintains an appropriate level of immersion.

Instead we have a lazy, immersion-destroying 3rd-person camera that magically hovers outside the ship and maintains perfect position.

What we have now is exactly like playing a 3rd-person perspective in an arcade game where you don't even question where the "camera" is because it's a god-mode omnipotent view that isn't even attempting to pretend it represents an actual camera perspective.

 

[CylonSurfer]

The problem is that this would require actual effort from the devs to design an appropriate UI that maintains an appropriate level of immersion.

Instead we have a lazy, immersion-destroying 3rd-person camera that magically hovers outside the ship and maintains perfect position.

What we have now is exactly like playing a 3rd-person perspective in an arcade game where you don't even question where the "camera" is because it's a god-mode omnipotent view that isn't even attempting to pretend it represents an actual camera perspective.

I completely agree and have thought this since I first saw the SRV turret camera, it spelt the future out very clearly in my eyes, a dip in quality and an approach which would get reused as a time saver when it came to providing new features. At the time I opened a thread to try and gain some momentum behind getting it changed or at the very least not used for future features. I was told by many that it was not a third person camera (it clearly is) and ridiculed for saying it was - jokes on them now.

I do expect effort in exchange for the money I hand over for these features, 2.0 has changed my approach to buying seasonal content for this game now. Likely has for others too.

 

[SystemShift]

I completely agree and have thought this since I first saw the SRV turret camera, it spelt the future out very clearly in my eyes, a dip in quality and an approach which would get reused as a time saver when it came to providing new features. At the time I opened a thread to try and gain some momentum behind getting it changed or at the very least not used for future features. I was told by many that it was not a third person camera (it clearly is) and ridiculed for say it was - jokes on them now.

I do expect effort in exchange for the money I hand over for these features, 2.0 has changed my approach to buying seasonal content for this game now. Likely has for others too.

Sorry but the SRV turret cam is not a third person view, if it was a third person view you would see the Hole SRV from behind when in the turret.

In the case of a first-person shooter, the player sees everything from the point of view of the character, which can include a view of the avatar's hands and equipment. With third-person shooters, players can see their avatars moving through virtual worlds. The avatar is usually viewed from a point above and behind it.

 

[Vasea Azure]

Sorry but the SRV turret cam is not a third person view, if it was a third person view you would see the Hole SRV from behind when in the turret.

I agree - as I mentioned, until now I was sure what we see its a feedback from a camera placed above the turret just like in modern military vehicles. In my eyes the way it looks is absolutely fine and not immersion breaking.

 

[Derage]

It's just for ease of use. The camera isn't a physical thing that flies around behind your ship.

How else are you supposed to aim multiple turrets?

By using a holographic representation of the ship and everything around it, I think it would've been quite neat if there was a transition between the default radar and the third-person cam. Obviously they chose to use just the default 3D graphics for the gunner, but if they showed us the transition from 3D holographics that get textured as the space is rendered around it would be awesome.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Sorry but the SRV turret cam is not a third person view, if it was a third person view you would see the Hole SRV from behind when in the turret.

In the case of a first-person shooter, the player sees everything from the point of view of the character, which can include a view of the avatar's hands and equipment. With third-person shooters, players can see their avatars moving through virtual worlds. The avatar is usually viewed from a point above and behind it.

It's a third person camera. I see my CMDR in the cockpit while using it. I can see the whole SRV as well, just like GTA. Your CMDR is still in the cockpit throughout the use of the camera, he / she does not leave the cockpit.

 

[Vasea Azure]

It's a third person camera. I see my CMDR in the cockpit while using it. I can see the whole SRV as well, just like GTA. Your CMDR is still in the cockpit throughout the use of the camera, he / she does not leave the cockpit.

Looks more like view from camera stuck to our turret:

http://imgur.com/fKu90wE

here operator will still see the gun barrel and his vehicle.

edit: also, how else would it work? SRV turret looks like it can be operated only via TV terminal so of course you will be able to see your commander sitting in the pit from the "camera feedback".

 

[Trash Gordon]

Looks more like view from camera stuck to our turret:

http://imgur.com/fKu90wE

here operator will still see the gun barrel and his vehicle.

Yep good call regardless of SRV this is what i´d like for multicrew, as mentioned before I kind of like the idea of slaving all turret together aswell I think it will perfectly work in first person.

Just have a periscope style sensor like seen in above picture, on top and below the ship (propably less for smaller ship with only on turret ...) and shift views when going from top to down under.

Having some of the ship in view is a plus to me, some restrictions are good for gameplay, its basicly like the commander seat in a tank.
It even adds the possibility to add funtionalities to that seat like directional radar (with enhanced range) instead of having 360° radar and automating everything.

 

[Kaocraft]

Ah... I remember back when the " in the fiction of the universe " wasn't a concept the community would bash and mock you for caring about.

Yup. Current consensus seems to be that if you don't like the directions the lore is headed then it's your fault for ever having cared about it or liked it in the first place. Also lol games are supposed to stupid, etc.

 

[Devari]

It's a third person camera. I see my CMDR in the cockpit while using it. I can see the whole SRV as well, just like GTA. Your CMDR is still in the cockpit throughout the use of the camera, he / she does not leave the cockpit.

The SRV camera maintains immersion properly by being physically limited to the traverse/elevation of the actual camera on the SRV turret. In this sense it's very similar to modern military vehicles that have turrets that are remotely-operated via a camera feed, the only difference is that in Elite you are fully "linked" so that you see directly from the camera, probably by using a VR setup in your helmet. The in-game explanation for this is the same telepresence that we use to fly SLFs, but for the SRV it was previously called a "neural link" before they used the term telepresence for SLFs. It makes sense however in that we could accomplish much the same effect with real-world technology by combining a VR headset (i.e., "telepresence") with a camera-operated turret (which are actually used on some modern military or SWAT vehicles).

To implement this properly for multicrew would not take a large amount of effort really, the devs could basically lift the "interface" from the SRV turret cam view with minimal adjustments for multicrew as the same "telepresence" technology is used in both cases so we would expect the interface itself to look similar. The main issue here is that FD would need to work out a system for switching between turrets and having the camera perspective limited to turret traverse/elevation much like with the limits to the SRV turret view. It's not a technically challenging thing at all, they've already done this for the SRV turret, but it does require a little more dev effort and time then what they've done with the lazy, omnipotent 3rd-person view that has a perspective of someone magically floating in space with no physical connection whatsoever to the ship itself.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Looks more like view from camera stuck to our turret:

http://imgur.com/fKu90wE

here operator will still see the gun barrel and his vehicle.

edit: also, how else would it work? SRV turret looks like it can be operated only via TV terminal so of course you will be able to see your commander sitting in the pit from the "camera feedback".

And the operator, I guess he hovers outside like a ghost. It's either a screen in the cab or manual operation, the later I would have preferred, no game play reason not to have as we have more or less the same minus the time and effort.

Yes Deveri, we are aware of the in game, now "lore" explanation for the lazy effort but it is still a lazy third person camera that could have and in my eyes should have been better, implementation. I, for the most part agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Vasea Azure]

And the operator, I guess he hovers outside like a ghost. It's either a screen in the cab or manual operation, the later I would have preferred, no game play reason not to have as we have more or less the same minus the time and effort.

Yes Deveri, we are aware of the in game, now "lore" explanation for the lazy effort but it is still a lazy third person camera that could have and in my eyes should have been better, implementation.

I assume its some sort of picture your commander is seeing in the screen - yes it would be nice to know where this screen with turret cam feedback is but hey, its still reasonable explanation. My question still sands - how other the view from the turret would look like?

 

[CylonSurfer]

I assume its some sort of picture your commander is seeing in the screen - yes it would be nice to know where this screen with turret cam feedback is but hey, its still reasonable explanation. My question still sands - how other the view from the turret would look like?

well dont you think it would have been nicer to see your commander on the back of the SRV moving as the turret moved? As if he actually controlled it? There was no reason not to do that, other than the time to create animations so it looked good... it was lazy and less effort, hence what we have (likely money vs time). Hence what we have with MC turrets today, the quickest way to deliver not necessarily the best. The bar gets lowered and people accept it, the bar remains low.

Explaining away shortcomings using "lore" is a cop out.

 

[Devari]

Yes Deveri, we are aware of the in game, now "lore" explanation for the lazy effort but it is still a lazy third person camera that could have and in my eyes should have been better, implementation. I, for the most part agree with the rest of your post.

I'm a little confused about whether you're referring to the SRV camera or the multicrew omnipotent 3rd-person perspective. I'm not sure why you would have any issues with the SRV turret view because that part is entirely understandable given that we have similar technology in use today (i.e., VR headsets and camera-operated weapon turrets). It's limited to the turret traverse/elevation limits and gives you a very good sense of remotely operating a turret.

The multcrew perspective, however, does none of these things, you're not using an external "camera" view at all and not only are not you not limited by turret traverse/elevation, the perspective magically floats around in space, completely detached from the ship, as if by magic.

If they simply took the SRV turret camera interface and adapted it for use with multicrew, i.e., limited traverse/elevation from a camera physically attached to the ship's hull, that would solve all of their immersion issues.