How to stop Combat Logging and make the game more FUN for all in open play.

[Mohrgan]

Or maybe you were reading with a bias .-.?

See? I can speculate that, as well, and it will spiral down a nonsensical confirmation bias or something asinine of that sort.

Take my word for it, both sides are inconsiderate, exchange their description as much as you like, I listed them to distinguish the different kinds of inconsiderate players in ED (that is germane to the topic).

Edit:

Also that I made it clear why I am sympathetic toward one subgroup of a camp for what reason. In fact I am sympathetic of those that kept getting blown up for no apparent reason and started logging out of fear, now that I think about it.

Except, that you leave obvious evidence. One side is scum, while the other, your favored, had some parenting issues. I don't want to stray away from your argument. This is not an attempt to insult you, just pointing out a bit of Yellow, you left in your Journalism. A good point doesn't need innuendo and insults to convince.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Except, that you leave obvious evidence. One side is scum, while the other, your favored, had some parenting issues. I don't want to stray away from your argument. This is not an attempt to insult you, just pointing out a bit of Yellow, you left in your Journalism.

Okay, then I'll edit it in .-.

This will it should settle the issue.

 

[wenkman]

skipped a few pages... is this really actually: "some Players are scum and we Need game mechanics to better their character"?

i have a Problem to say a Person is scum because of any game behavior (Loggers and griefers). I would like to say, they can be nice persons (i don't know) but they use the anonymity of a game to skip some morals, which is part of human nature as far as i'm concerned.

a gamerule should only make other Players unaffected by Actions of These People, not try to better their character.

 

[Boomer Kay]

That is an asinine argument, PvP is a competitive subject and using something having no counters to and is being labeled as illegitimate by the hosting party of the competition is ridiculous.

I won what?
Cargo? Nope.
Destruction of the ship? Never wanted that in the first place.

The assumption that this game has some "win conditions" in open PvP is asinine. It doesn't. There is no "game over, you won". The game doesn't care. The game respawns you immediately and provides you with an armed ship.

Let's put it quite simple. I'm immortal.The best PvP pilot in this game is completely unable to kill me.
This 'gentleman's agreement' that ship destruction means defeat is some arbitrary rule that some have agreed upon. Guess what? I never signed that agreement. It's "anything goes" open which turns it into an endless war of attrition between "immortals" and the 'winner' is the one who turns the lights out.

You do know that as a partially PvP focused player myself that I need to keep up with Engineers right? I've done that already, probably more than most people on this forum considering how much I modded my ships.

As reigning PvP champion of the galaxy (due to no-show of the entire PvP crowd .. look above .. no win conditions - I can make my own and they're just as 'valid' as any other), I fly a Viper MK3 and an Eagle .. both unmodded - sometimes an iCourier, but that's already kinda OP.

Shooting you at station entrance doesn't sound like something a pirate does, not to mention Sandro explicitly stated that they are improving station security (shoot down missiles, OP lasers)

There will always be ways to exploit a system, as long as there are no judgement calls involved that go by context and intention.

I can relate to latter camp's C group since I watched it happen right before my eyes with SDC coming out of The Code, and I really can't bring myself to blame them. Not that what they're doing is "right".

The 'blame game' does not move things ahead. Some analysis might do.
My conclusion - If a player is completely unable and/or unwilling to empathize with other players (which does not mean they have to put other player's needs before their own, just to acknowledge them and reconcile them into the own position), his participation in open is -most likely- a waste of everyone's time.
You yourself took up the cause of piracy and PvP so often - do you really feel it had an overall impact on any of the "sides"?

 

[Han_Zen]

A lot of people like to play Open, but they don't appreciate all aspect of it. Some will go to Private groups to avoid these aspects and some will openly cheat or exploit to avoid them.
Some players will cheat and exploit just because they can. This last group is not interesting. They will gladly use hacks and cheap station ramming tactics, because cheating IS the game for them. Banning is probably the only option for these 'players'.

All you others. You that use small cheats or exploits(Alt-F4 logging, Bandwidth monitor or even legal tactical menu logging) to bend the rules to get an edge or avoid loss. What would it take from the game(not other players), for you to play fair and by the rules?

 

[Dizzy B High]

Not trying to off-rail this thread as its about combat logging.

But yes Crime and punishment is a big aspect why people do it, no penalty to the killer, big insurance/cargo/credit loss to the victim.

Killers can suicide in a Sidey costing them nothing and go out and kill again rinse and repeat.

The bounty/fine needs to GO ON THE SHIP not the commander, to clear that bounty you have to destroy that ship.
The more you murder/pirate the more the ship bounty goes up, the riskier it gets for the pirate.

Now that the ship has the bounty, you cant willy nilly go to any station, you have to go to a pirate outpost, or risk destruction by the cops. (all part of the RP)

If a ship has a bounty it cant be sold, it can be upgraded though (probably at pirate outposts). Not so good tech but as a pirate you have to suffer some consequences.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

A lot of people like to play Open, but they don't appreciate all aspect of it. Some will go to Private groups to avoid these aspects and some will openly cheat or exploit to avoid them.
Some players will cheat and exploit just because they can. This last group is not interesting. They will gladly use hacks and cheap station ramming tactics, because cheating IS the game for them. Banning is probably the only option for these 'players'.

All you others. You that use small cheats or exploits(Alt-F4 logging, Bandwidth monitor or even legal tactical menu logging) to bend the rules to get an edge or avoid loss. What would it take from the game(not other players), for you to play fair and by the rules?

The rules are insufficient. The rules are not enforced. There need to be better ones. And they need to be enforced. Simple as that.

 

[Boomer Kay]

Not trying to off-rail this thread as its about combat logging.

But yes Crime and punishment is a big aspect why people do it, no penalty to the killer, big insurance/cargo/credit loss to the victim.

Killers can suicide in a Sidey costing them nothing and go out and kill again rinse and repeat.

The bounty/fine needs to GO ON THE SHIP not the commander, to clear that bounty you have to destroy that ship.
The more you murder/pirate the more the ship bounty goes up, the riskier it gets for the pirate.

Now that the ship has the bounty, you cant willy nilly go to any station, you have to go to a pirate outpost, or risk destruction by the cops. (all part of the RP)

If a ship has a bounty it cant be sold, it can be upgraded though (probably at pirate outposts). Not so good tech but as a pirate you have to suffer some consequences.

You can make between 20 and 50 million per hour with some missions (not just CEOs/Sothis), depending on how willing you are to cheese them (and in the case of our lulzbunnies they're too willing to cheese everything, so ...).
How much do you really think will a bounty achieve?
And should the majority of "regular players" have to suffer for the numptyness of a selected few by nerfing everything into nothingness because it can possibly be cheesed?

 

[Dizzy B High]

You can make between 20 and 50 million per hour with some missions (not just CEOs/Sothis), depending on how willing you are to cheese them (and in the case of our lulzbunnies they're too willing to cheese everything, so ...).
How much do you really think will a bounty achieve?
And should the majority of "regular players" have to suffer for the numptyness of a selected few by nerfing everything into nothingness because it can possibly be cheesed?

Sorry but what has Sothis got to do with anything i said?

I suggested a way to circumvent the jumping into a sidewinder and clearing your bad deeds, if you do something bad it should stay with you, and be locked to the ship that did the bad deed.

You may be right about "How much do you really think will a bounty achieve?" probably nothing, unless when that ship is destroyed the owner of the ship then has to reimburse all or a percentage of the insurance claims back to the commanders he has killed.

Any Cargo that was stolen in a successful, non deadly pirate attempt Is theirs to keep. no need to pay any of that back.

Pirating is a legitimate role to play, Its mindless killing that needs to be dealt with.

 

[Boomer Kay]

A "Ganker" doesn't care about his "bad deeds" as "punishment" - they're a badge of honour if anything.
Tying them to a ship or a commander .. huh?

And discouraging random killing by adding a light pricetag on it that can be earned in less than an hour gameplay is not actually discouraging anything.
It probably only adds to the "well, but I payed 1 mio (3-5 minuts of high paying missions) for destroying 500 newbie sidewinders, I've payed my dues to society" .. which is not "crime and punishment", it's "minor parking offense and toll fees" level.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

A "Ganker" doesn't care about his "bad deeds" as "punishment" - they're a badge of honour if anything.
…

That's why removing the re-buy cost from PvP encounters is a nice idea. It removes one motivator: "salt".

 

[Boomer Kay]

That's why removing the re-buy cost from PvP encounters is a nice idea. It removes one motivator: "salt".

They will just find a new one.
Any PvE aquired, high time investment commodity that can be destroyed and might cause a sense of loss - be it exploration data, engineer commodities ... and whatever else FD is adding in future updates. First "Alien" encounter in open mode (a la scavenger hunt CG)? Dozens of lulzbunnies shooting at everything on sight in the system the Aljun ship is supposed to be just to keep them from contacting it.

The technical solution is an official PvE opt-in flag, so no other player can interdict, attack or ram you. Unpopular? Let's have a vote .. I predict a 70:30 for the flag.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…
The technical solution is an official PvE opt-in flag, so no other player can interdict, attack or ram you.…

Just like the PvE mode this won't happen because the creative minds will find a way around anything - according to FD (don't know who responded to the "Why no Open PvE mode?" question on one of the recent live streams).

The only real way to stop undesirable behavior that is motivated by out of game reasons are out of game punishments (ban, shadow ban…).

But, I don't think we need one solution to solve the problem. Different methods that all aren't 100% solutions can be effective. Basically a "death by a thousand stings" approach.

Removing some of the reasons why some players combat log. Removing some of the reasons why some players attack others for the "lulz". Add interesting gameplay options that are fun for attacker and attacked - at least for some. Punish combat logging, punish "griefing". A working crime and punishment system. Clear rules what is legit PvP and what not.
Ideally it all adds up and hopefully minimizes the combat logging and the reasons for combat logging.

 

[Asp Explorer]

The problem there is that any in-game "protection" from pew-pews will actively be used by pew-pews to gain advantage in a direct or indirect manner. It's simply part of the meta game.

 

[DukeIronHand]

That's why removing the re-buy cost from PvP encounters is a nice idea. It removes one motivator: "salt".

I would as a Solo player (due to internet connection) disagree.

Let say I don't do or like PvP and am "enticed" into Open by no rebuy costs.

So I am blown up in a "non- consensual PvP" encounter.
What if I am running missions? Now I lost reputation with whatever faction and gain no Power prestige.
Coming back from exploring? Millions in scan data lost.
Trading. My cargo money is gone.
Just going somewhere. If I am in the middle of a 500 LY trip and get blown up now I have to do it all over again.

These may seem like minor points to some but why would I need the aggravation? Just to be content for some PvP'er?

And said it before and I'll say it again - if I am blown up "unjustly" by some ganker what do I care if some tepid, half- baked "crime and punishment" gets him a bounty. What do I care? Why does he care? Bounties are easy enough to take care of. One of his pals blast him and its over...for a profit.

I think they are some "problems" that will never be fixed in regards to Open.

 

[Boomer Kay]

But, I don't think we need one solution to solve the problem.

Every solution creates new problems.

Regarding the rebuy costs. They're too low rather than too high.
You should actually think twice which ship you take into a combat encounter (google General Pyrrhus .. a very 'succesful' strategist of old greece), instead, every PvPer is cheesing his billions of rebuys and takes expensive ships to battle without batting an eyelash. If he gets destroyed, he simply cheeses some more millions and is back in the game.
Quite capable and cheap ships like the Vipers, which would not be "insta death" for traders are only used by enthusiasts, the rest is (modded) FDLs, which then in turn is of course "too OP for PvP and everyone is flying it, so it has to be nerfed".

Ehhhh [wacky]

Until fixes are provided (which will be ETA: when hell freezes over), the workaround is simple - take only ships to open mode that you don't mind losing and only carry stuff you don't mind losing.
Basically .. don't play ED the game in open, just ED the lulzbunnyhuntercandycrushclone.

 

[Han_Zen]

Every solution creates new problems.

Regarding the rebuy costs. They're too low rather than too high.
You should actually think twice which ship you take into a combat encounter (google General Pyrrhus .. a very 'succesful' strategist of old greece), instead, every PvPer is cheesing his billions of rebuys and takes expensive ships to battle without batting an eyelash. If he gets destroyed, he simply cheeses some more millions and is back in the game.
Quite capable and cheap ships like the Vipers, which would not be "insta death" for traders are only used by enthusiasts, the rest is (modded) FDLs, which then in turn is of course "too OP for PvP and everyone is flying it, so it has to be nerfed".

Ehhhh [wacky]

Until fixes are provided (which will be ETA: when hell freezes over), the workaround is simple - take only ships to open mode that you don't mind losing and only carry stuff you don't mind losing.
Basically .. don't play ED the game in open, just ED the lulzbunnyhuntercandycrushclone.

This is really a CG only issue, isn't it?

I play open about 90% of my time. I see plenty commanders where I expect them to be and non of them try to kill me. Most of them say 'Hi' and go on with their business.

 

[Dizzy B High]

A "Ganker" doesn't care about his "bad deeds" as "punishment" - they're a badge of honour if anything.
Tying them to a ship or a commander .. huh?

And discouraging random killing by adding a light pricetag on it that can be earned in less than an hour gameplay is not actually discouraging anything.
It probably only adds to the "well, but I payed 1 mio (3-5 minuts of high paying missions) for destroying 500 newbie sidewinders, I've payed my dues to society" .. which is not "crime and punishment", it's "minor parking offense and toll fees" level.

If the bounty is on that ship which cannot be cleared by jumping into a sidewinder and self destructing.

Then when they go back into that ship they wont be able to do missions to get credits as they will be blown out of the sky as soon as go into controlled space, be it fed imperial or independent. They will be ganked by full wings of elite NPC's.
They wont be able to dock in anything other than pirate bases, which will only offer maybe smuggling missions to stations controlled by factions, and hence get blown to bits by the station there if they have to rebuy a new ship every time they destroy someone else's ship, then that will get as tedious for them as it will for their Gankee's.

And said it before and I'll say it again - if I am blown up "unjustly" by some ganker what do I care if some tepid, half- baked "crime and punishment" gets him a bounty. What do I care? Why does he care? Bounties are easy enough to take care of. One of his pals blast him and its over...for a profit.

Because when his ship is destroyed by NPC's stations etc you will get back the insurance that you paid out, and it will come from his credits, his mate will get just the bounty on the commander.

If he wants to avoid being blown up by stations/NPC's he will have to conduct his ganking only in anarchy space, and if your going into anarchy space you know what risks you are running.

Anarchy should be dangerous and deadly, safe secs should be safe.

And maybe my thinking is a little wrong.

For sure they could just jump into another ship, and do missions.

SO maybe yeah attach it to the commander.

The important aspect is that when he kills an innocent unwanted pilot the rebuy cost gets logged to that commander, and not to a bounty that gets claimed when he gets killed by one of his mates.

When he does die eventually, he has to pay back from his credits all of the insurance payouts he has directly caused, could maybe bankrupt him force him back into a sidey if he has killed a lot of innocents, and the innocent some time down the road gets his money back, nice little suprise.

 

[Boomer Kay]

This is really a CG only issue, isn't it?

I play open about 90% of my time. I see plenty commanders where I expect them to be and non of them try to kill me. Most of them say 'Hi' and go on with their business.

It's a "social hotspot" issue - CGs, Events, Engineers, Shinrarta ...
Which is so stupid, it hurts. The places designated as social hotspots are also the most unfriendly ones to visit. "come visit our october fest - only 10% of you will get robbed" is not something you put on an advertisement.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Oh I agree that Anarchies should be dangerous and that rich high security systems should be safer - in all modes.

That quote was in reference to winged malcontents, with too much time and money, probably not caring about any "crime and punishment" system likely to be enacted by FD.

I am not saying a semi-effective system could not be programmed but my ideas (and some here) may be tough to program and beyond any effort FD is willing to put into it.
Plus the inevitable side effects major changes tend to have a.k.a. Bugs and the effect these bugs have on other things.

Still waiting on the, seemingly simple, "0H/0M" fix and that has been months.