I am a conscientious objector of the Aegis provocation

[TOM USMC]

Not to stray too far off topic, but I just took the "America"-bit to be a nod to the fact that Americans (I'm a US citizen, and I assume you are too, or at least are working towards being, based on your name) are in the most decisive position of all on this planet right now, being a pretty heavily militarized global superpower. For better or worse, we have a huge sway over the future of the planet. Given that significantly-greater-than-standard power, there's an extra duty to wield it responsibly - an irresponsible 21st century United States can cause a lot more damage than an irresponsible 21st century Luxembourg, for instance - and ensure those here in decisive positions are the right one to be sitting at those levers. With that in mind, I don't think it's a jab at the US specifically - we just happen to be the major power at this time - the direction is not at the US, it's at power, and we just happen to be the most significant wielders of such power right now.

Additionally, it's drawing a connecting line between the tendency of those in-game to see threat rather than seek understanding, and those who seem to do the same in the real world. I've been thinking much the same, watching this all unfold in game (not even to mention reality...). The parallels to me are kind of fascinating.

So I don't really blame a non-US citizen if they seem to be a little morose and harder on the US - because we're the current global superpower, we wield a very outsized global influence, and at times it has to be frustrating to live in that shadow where, as a non-citizen, they don't really have much of an influence over the actions of the superpower. It's like an adult, raised in the understanding they were part of a global community and a citizen of a democratic nation, being reverted to a child-like role where someone else dictates everything and you're just along for the ride. That seems like a perfect recipe for some heavy existential despair, and I'm sure that despair exists at some level regardless of who specifically is in political power at whatever specific nation is most powerful at the time. So it's not specifically about us, our country, or our political leaders - it's about the lack of self-determination - we just happen the be in the power-seat right now, so our actions can have the most influence at magnifying of lessening those feelings.

/tried really hard not to veer into direct politics

Well, yes. I am a citizen of the United States. I can always appreciate an alternative view point. The judgment that comes along with it is the problem.

I would tend to agree with most of your statement, but disagree with where you put the responsibility. If anyone thinks that government in, the USA anyway, is anything other than a skeletal system that allows corporations to let people feel like they are governed, is just silly.

I won't go any farther than that either. As this wasn't intended to and I dont care to really dig into that dung pile.

 

[Mrat13]

I trust AEGIS as far as I can throw them and all their stations...
And I also love the controversy between the content that is offered and the ambivalence. I mean, we all know governments are corrupt, and suddenly, when there's a non-human threat, we are supposed to trust them to do the right thing? I think not.
For all I know AEGIS and the Superpowers could be resonsible for any trouble we so far had with the Thargoids and since they are such sweethearts I also think it's totally possible that the bait and provoke them on purpose to attack their stations to show the rest of humanity how bad those mean xenos are... AEGIS stinks. A lot.

Even IF that is true, I still can't help but help other people, even if ultimately, it was AEGIS' fault. I will not let others die becuase of someone else, and will rescue them, whoever they may be.

Plus, I also still have to use AEGIS tech if I wish to study the 'goids. So, I'm walking a tightrope. If ultimately, my actions lead to peace, through showing dedication to ultimately trying to help, and never ever firing back, then I did good, even if I'm not destroying bad people.

 

[Goose4291]

Thanks for your wise words and no, I feel in no way anti-American and yes, it's getting really OT here and I feel partially guilty for that. Sorry.

Just one question: What does "to track someone" mean? Is this a threat? And if so, for what? For just some anonymous guy hurting someone's national feelings? Wow...

Track: as in to follow.

Ie he didnt follow your line of thought

 

[TOM USMC]

Thanks for your wise words and no, I feel in no way anti-American and yes, it's getting really OT here and I feel partially guilty for that. Sorry.

Just one question: What does "to track someone" mean? Is this a threat? And if so, for what? For just some anonymous guy hurting someone's national feelings? Wow...

I wasn't following you. No feelings hurt, just didn't care for the tone. I'm sure I overreacted. My apologies.

 

[Mrat13]

Thanks for your wise words and no, I feel in no way anti-American and yes, it's getting really OT here and I feel partially guilty for that. Sorry.

I think the parallels drawn were bound to happen. Sure it's off topic, but it's human nature to notice patterns.

My belief however, is that people tend to jump to 'this means this', both IRL and in game. I think looking at reality should help our understanding of the 'goids, as we may realize the need to slow down, and study our opposite number, rather than take the shoot first think later approach a lot of people have already done.

 

[InertFurry]

I have no idea. What do you think they think we were doing taking all the artifacts and probes?

They know what we're doing with the probes. They're probes. It's not like they go dark the moment they get scooped.

 

[Straker]

I'm from Australia and like America we also nearly wiped out the indigenous populations of our countries when the Brittish settled. With regard to the Thargoids and territory, I can't help but wonder what it would have been like for the Brittish if they went to a strange new land, proceeded to request the local people to relocate themselves so the Brittish could repopulate (additionally using force) and then find out that the indigenous people were actually more technologically advanced than the Brittish.

I have a feeling that this could perhaps be what is happening in the Pleiades because it could be we now have a more modern varient of the mycoid virus which is the Aegis backup plan and means of leverage against a more advanced species. (Worth noting how the Brittish killed many native inhabitants through the spread of non-native viruses and diseaases.) If the Thargoids aren't inherently hostile then this could explain why it is that they are acting the way they are. David Braben has made reference previously to American history and I wonder if the Thargoids are the American Indians but this time they have teeth.

Remember the recent GalNet reference to territory and gegraphical data.

...all wild speculation but I definitely want more information before I start getting directly involved - thus my reasons for remaining a conscientious objector of the Aegis provocation.

 

[seko]

From an external gamer perspective, a lot of people wanted a challenge and something to shoot at and it appears that the Thargoids are fulfilling this desire. From my internal role-playing perspective this appears to be an Aegis-Thargoid war and thus leaves me feeling a little motivationally conflicted.

I thank Frontier that the Thargoids currently appear not to be the typical Hollywood evil-villain trope, where culturally designated 'good guy' meets culturally designated 'bad guy' and proceed to fight the culturally designated 'good fight'. The Thargoids currently exhibit a more complex behaviour in that they only appear to attack when provoked (as they designate provocation), have only attacked the stations from the provoking organisation (Aegis) and they also appear to be searching for something.

This indicates things are not as black and white as it might appear and puts me in a difficult position because as an external gamer I see all this content being added to the game with provocation in mind yet I still see no real reason why, from a role-play perspective, I shouldn't see Aegis as the real threat. Sure, it's early days as far as the Thargoids true intentions but at the moment I'm not sure I want to participate in the Aegis provocation.

So, from a gamer's perspective, this leaves me out of a great deal of new content. However, I have participated in the evacuation of people from the attacked stations, as it appears to be a Pilots Federation humanitarian mission.

I have more questions than answers. I wonder what Frontier have in mind? I guess I will continue to feel motivationally conflicted for a while longer and will continue to be a conscientious objector of the Aegis provocation.

I don't want all answers handed to me on a plate at once but I would like to see more revealed about intentions and motivations of lore-based characters, organisations and non-human life. For me personally, this is the true 'narrative' as I want to learn more about in-game actors.

I have been pulled out of hyperspace many times by Thargoids, and only ever been attacked, if I get too close, or I am carrying Thargoid material, but have never been destroyed. I have never opened fire on a Thargoid, scanned and taken samples, but never opened fire, yet many cmdrs have attacked and destroyed Thargoid vessels, yet in the past few days we are mortified that the Thargoids have attacked Aegis stations. Makes perfect sense to me, from their perspective humanity has attacked them, Aegis is making weapons to allow this to happen. These recent station attacks were anticipated, there needs to be some game mechanics to allow us to commumicate

 

[Mrat13]

Xenos attack fed taskgroup
"Oh, we dont know what happened, maybe they were defending themselves"

Xenos abduct escape pods and we know from loresources that thargoids enjoy a bit of living dissection of humans
"Oh, we dont know what theyre doing with the pods"

Xenos attack and wreck three stations, killing untold thousands.
"It was only a measured response"

*story advances down towards its inevitable war conclusion*
"This is all the fault of slack jawed (insert american insult here) trigger happy gweefers with reallife psychological issues"

1) never trust the Feds, ever.

2) we take tissue samples from them. That's gotta hurt, they even turn red, but we do it in the name of science. Wouldn't blame the thargoids doing the same, how else are they to understand us?

3) Yet the stations weren't outright destroyed? And don't say they couldn't of done that if they wanted to. They went light on us after we attacked them FIRST.

I'm holding judgement and conducting research till Fdev either break the game by forcing narrative, or we reach peaceful coexistence through mutual understanding.

I am a scientist, not a fighter, now please, leave your prejudice at the door, and let me do my work, thank you.

 

[Straker]

At the risk of being the party pooper again, I fail to believe why this would suddenly be much different in a real encounter with any real alien race. We are even actively conditioning ourselves for this kind of behavior, and games are just one of many tiny steps as of how we do that. There isn't much hope if people eventually don't start to question themselves and what they do just because everyone is doing it and because we were always doing it. Traditions, religions, personal and national pride, or just habits.

I believe the answer to understanding our behaviour is through knowledge of our biology and the genetic+environmental conditions that produce it. Everything else is just a side-show. In the real world we are heading down that track as you see the sciences attempting to understand how our biology translates to behaviour. Some progress has been made but there's a whole lot more to learn.

Humans are currently stuck in three consecutive states of thinking with regard to behaviour: [1] We identify perpetrators; [2] We blame them; and [3] We exact revenge through punishment. While we can all agree that people need protection, I think we need to transition to modes of thinking that are underpinned by scientific understanding that leads to education and appropriate protection, rather than this childish blame & punishment game we currently play.

Yes, it's still early days for the Thargoids in Elite Dangerous (although they have been with us for a while now) but I'm seriously crossing my fingers that this narrative doesn't evolve to a melodramatic, cliched 'good guy' vs 'bad guy' fight. I still believe there are enough signs to indicate this doesn't have to be the case.

 

[TOM USMC]

They know what we're doing with the probes. They're probes. It's not like they go dark the moment they get scooped.

I'm not sure how you know what they know or how their probes work, and what of the artifacts? And let's assume they do know, apparently they aren't happy.

So, by all means, let's kill them for reacting to our aggression in the same manner we do.

 

[TOM USMC]

I'm from Australia and like America we also nearly wiped out the indigenous populations of our countries when the Brittish settled. With regard to the Thargoids and territory, I can't help but wonder what it would have been like for the Brittish if they went to a strange new land, proceeded to request the local people to relocate themselves so the Brittish could repopulate (additionally using force) and then find out that the indigenous people were actually more technologically advanced than the Brittish.

I have a feeling that this could perhaps be what is happening in the Pleiades because it could be we now have a more modern varient of the mycoid virus which is the Aegis backup plan and means of leverage against a more advanced species. (Worth noting how the Brittish killed many native inhabitants through the spread of non-native viruses and diseaases.) If the Thargoids aren't inherently hostile then this could explain why it is that they are acting the way they are. David Braben has made reference previously to American history and I wonder if the Thargoids are the American Indians but this time they have teeth.

Remember the recent GalNet reference to territory and gegraphical data.

...all wild speculation but I definitely want more information before I start getting directly involved - thus my reasons for remaining a conscientious objector of the Aegis provocation.

, You don't need to look any farther than the Zulu Wars. They were technologically primitive and went toe to toe anyway. If they were technologically equal then you go the banking route. Destroy the local currency and collapse them from the inside out. No one ever does that [rolleyes]

 

[Vasious]

1) never trust the Feds, ever.

2) we take tissue samples from them. That's gotta hurt, they even turn red, but we do it in the name of science. Wouldn't blame the thargoids doing the same, how else are they to understand us?

3) Yet the stations weren't outright destroyed? And don't say they couldn't of done that if they wanted to. They went light on us after we attacked them FIRST.

I'm holding judgement and conducting research till Fdev either break the game by forcing narrative, or we reach peaceful coexistence through mutual understanding.

I am a scientist, not a fighter, now please, leave your prejudice at the door, and let me do my work, thank you.

Well again it is

1)Something that uses the same weapons as the Thargoids, and leave a Thargoid ship signature attacks a Federation Convoy
And the response is either it wasn't Thargoids or if it was Thargoids the Feds deserved it

2) They were collecting the Life Pods first, so how does out collection of tissue samples justify it? And Tissue samples seem to be non lethal, but no Humans from the Pods have ever return.

But again I am sure it is the Thargoids that are the real victims here .

3) Yes but all the Belugas and Type 9, The Argi Ships, Bulk Haulers, Science ships, and Prison ships were also attacked and people killed, but yes your scientist view shows we are the ones with prejudice thinking that again the Thargoids are the vicitmjs and what ever all those people on the Argicultural ships were clearing harming Thargoids and humanity again is the bad guy.

Still there are bleeding hearts saying it wasn't the Thargoids,

When it was the Feds the Feds were lying, then the Empire, it was a False Flag operation, same for all the Mega Ships, all the logs are fakes and lies, even the Attack on the Station where we see the Medusae, oh it is really INRA setting up the Thargoids.

If we hand Thargoid crew land and eat people I am sure we would be told it is just INRA people in Rubber suits pretending to be Tharogids, and there is "no evidence what so ever the Thargoids are hostile" as apparently only Humanity could ever possess that trait and anyone suggesting otherwise is a prejudiced Xenophobe

 

[TOM USMC]

Same here, I can easily confirm this behavior.

When this wouldn't be a game and the Thargoids were real intelligent beings, then they have all reasons to see us as their enemies. We players act exactly in the same arrogant and ignoring way the western world always have treated other humans and creatures that we are unable to communicate with. And it's still going on.

It probably even started long before the first kill, think of the barnacles. Do we really know what they mean to them? At least it looks like something they want (or have to?) harvest. Imagine some aliens would suddenly appear on our world and start harvesting our crop. What would you say? Would you just say "how respectless" and then leave it at that? We even have a hard time to respect each other (me unfortunately not always excluded) and we are talking more or less the same language.

At the risk of being the party pooper again, I fail to believe why this would suddenly be much different in a real encounter with any real alien race. We are even actively conditioning ourselves for this kind of behavior, and games are just one of many tiny steps as of how we do that. There isn't much hope if people eventually don't start to question themselves and what they do just because everyone is doing it and because we were always doing it. Traditions, religions, personal and national pride, or just habits.

And the moment you try to break out you are considered a traitor. This game gives us the invaluable chance to learn from our mistakes while it's still a game...

I agree to an extent. But being trigger happy in a game where your only concern is a rebuy enables the darkest parts of the human psyche.

In the real world, bean counters would be tallying up the expected cost to any given action. If the cost is within tolerance then "Let the Shoosting begin."

I have faith that we would be cautious, but the motive for being cautious would only be to figure out if they have anything we need or want, and then the best method to take it.

 

[Cosmo]

The problem is Frontier never added any tools for peaceful interaction with the Thargoids. So the only satisfying way is pew-pew. That's a shame. There should be more options than only combat interactions.

 

[Mike Reacher]

Loving this thread. So much to'ing and fro'ing.

Hmmmm. Actually, you never have to do anything ethical or unethical. Everything you do is a choice. We as a species make moral eqivilances and trash everything around us all in the name of "The Greater Good".


It is all rationalizing, minimizing, and justification standing in for a lack of conviction, belief and back bone.

It's as if you think that if we let one street performer outside our shops that overnight, we will be up to our armpits with crusty jugglers.

Saving survivors is ethical. Didn't you want to do something ethical?

I definitely don't trust Aegis.

I ain't saying roll over, but I'm not ready to write off peace with our new friends.

Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/F6aYlPd.jpg

We come in peace, shot ti kill, shoot to kill. We come in peace shoot to kill. (Dammit. That is so old)

Peace, Bro.

See above.

I don't know what's worse. The Xeno-apologists, their looking down on players in a manner akin to the way PvE purists look down on those who PvP that we've had for the past three years or those that believe we're not on a railroaded storyline despite all the prior evidence that proves to the contrary.

Hey. I'm (almost a solo purist and I want PvP to thrive. It is what a lot of cmdrs want. Even the griefers.

Xenos attack fed taskgroup
"Oh, we dont know what happened, maybe they were defending themselves"

Xenos abduct escape pods and we know from loresources that thargoids enjoy a bit of living dissection of humans
"Oh, we dont know what theyre doing with the pods"

Xenos attack and wreck three stations, killing untold thousands.
"It was only a measured response"

*story advances down towards its inevitable war conclusion*
"This is all the fault of slack jawed (insert american insult here) trigger happy gweefers with reallife psychological issues"

Doesn't lore tell us what they do with pods?
One helluva measured response, methinks.
Elite dangerous is a majority combat game, isn't it? I feel that is what FD want.

Your string of events, that I'm assuming have been provided as justification of a hostile response, do not take into account humanities long abuse of alien artifacts, and probes. None of what you listed here happened before people had been rampantly abusing their stuff to begin with.

So, while I agree there can be a certain amount of judgment leveled at hostile people, that is not my intent. I am not a "Space Hippie". I will fight when appropriate, necessary, and with a savage ferocity. It is sad to me that no one on the war side seems to remember this hostility was instigated by us.

No alien artifacts here. Where ya been bro?
So far, any quote from lore seems to be Thargoids attack, Thargoids kill. Thargoid bad! ( I would like to see the proof.)

.... which also conveniently overlooks we've been at war with the Thargoids since the first Elite, a war which they started and we were losing till INRA heroically saved us all.

I've always been of the opinion that since they were stopped by the Mycoid virus, they've been licking their wounds waiting to strike. Now we've 'provoked' them by finding them, it was only a matter.of time before they resumed their plans of annihilating humanity.

We need to mouth shot, double tap each one of 'em just to be sure.

Remember that Germany lost the first world war and licked their wounds for a while, then attacked again.

Edit- I made the highlighted statement in the Thargoid sadness post not this one. My bad.

Well, I actually started my original comment saying that I knew we had been at war... your comment just makes my point. We don't know our butts from a hole in the ground on this one, but we have already pre-ordained our justification for hostilities. Your use of justified violence based on scooping up of escape pods absolutely ignores their justified response based on our scooping up artifacts. (Just one example). The artifacts are not living people. Or did some one hold a mirror to a mouth?

The ship may have already sailed, but I'll ask one last question. Under what circumstance would you admit that we over reacted and created a situation where otherwise it wouldn't exist? What would you need to know to admit that?

So far, I have not see a circumstance for attack or restraint. I have not heard of Thargoids firing first, but with poor memory I thought one cmdr scanned a thargoid and was fired on.

I think thats my point. Without getting too tropey about it, we're in a reimagined battlestar type scenario

The original war never officially ended. We're still at war.

Yep! Never let the guard down. Humanity is still at war with other humans that love to kill.

Ok when you say that they were back to their human dissecting ways as soon as they got FTL back. What is that based on?

I want to know the actual text where that came from as well! Please?

This from a species that engages in corporate mass murder, assassination, piracy, enslaves its own species, and regularly preys upon weaker citizens just getting their start in space. Hooray for humanity. It won't be long before you see some human wings fighting along side the bugs. Things could and should get more morally obscure-- interesting. The Thargoids just might have a point.

Saving the survivors isn't morally obscure. But spying is morally obscure. During WW II we had Australian citizens spying against us. English and American citizens spying against us.
Don't know what their ida was.

I have no idea. What do you think they think we were doing taking all the artifacts and probes?

Trying to learn something.

CMDR Corlas brings it to the point. While it makes me sad that these kind of considerations seem in a clear minority here, it really scares me when I think about when we ever would face a similar situation in reality. Even though ED is just a game, I'm afraid there always will be some trigger happy simple minds in decisive positions (America, hear me?) sitting at the right (read: wrong) levers. If this happens then help us God and make these aliens not even 10 times more powerful than our cute ingame 'friends'. That will be the last heroic act of any human and it will be a very short affair...

Well, I have heard some scientists say that humans can't last more than a year or 2 in zero gravity. FD have not put artificial gravity in the game yet. Only spinning stations.

Getting back to the point of Elite dangerous. I really believe FD want us at war. It is a story. We don't have to treat it like real life.

Don't give up the arguments though. I don't believe either persuasion is going to win. Not without backup text.

 

[EvE4evah]

The only peaceful interaction I want with the Thargoids are trade missions. They'll ask "bring me 50 CMDR debris" and I'll ask for "give me a Thargon Swarm". Way better than PowerPlay For Modules.

Here's the chat, BTW:

5 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Caustic Cloaca
10 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Caustic YLOD (yellow lazor of death)
25 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Electromagnetic Field Farter
50 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Thargon Swarm
100 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Anti-Mode Flipping Saliva Ejector
and:
1 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Docking Computer Neutralizer

 

[Mike Reacher]

The only peaceful interaction I want with the Thargoids are trade missions. They'll ask "bring me 50 CMDR debris" and I'll ask for "give me a Thargon Swarm". Way better than PowerPlay For Modules.

Here's the chat, BTW:

5 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Caustic Cloaca
10 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Caustic YLOD (yellow lazor of death)
25 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Electromagnetic Field Farter
50 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Thargon Swarm
100 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Anti-Mode Flipping Saliva Ejector
and:
1 CMDR debris ………………… 1 Docking Computer Neutralizer

Ha ha. Best post in this thread. Thank you and already repped.

 

[Vasious]

No alien artifacts here. Where ya been bro?
So far, any quote from lore seems to be Thargoids attack, Thargoids kill. Thargoid bad! ( I would like to see the proof.)

So far, I have not see a circumstance for attack or restraint. I have not heard of Thargoids firing first, but with poor memory I thought one cmdr scanned a thargoid and was fired on.

.

---

l
The Alcatraz Class Prison Ship designation JJF-048 was last reported in orbit of the planet HIP 17692 A 3.
The ship is heavily damaged, destroyed by weapons consistent with other Thargoid attacks, leaving green hull scarring and some kind of green gas throughout the area.

Until it’s confirmed hostile, do not do anything that it could see as a threat. I repeat – Do not engage! If we don’t provoke it, maybe it will just pass us by.

Didn't work out well

---

The Aquarius Class Tanker designation ALF-895 was last reported in orbit of the planet HIP 17225 A 2.
The ship is heavily damaged, destroyed by weapons consistent with other Thargoid attacks, leaving green hull scarring and some kind of green gas throughout the area.

I don’t want to hear what we can’t do. I need solutions otherwise.
That thing left us for dead, but I’m damned if I’m going out like this
We’re going to split into teams and see what we can salvage. Start with the escape pods and see what we can get operational again.

---

The Thomas Class Bulk Cargo Ship DFX-056 was last reported in orbit of the moon Pleiades Sector IH-V c2-5 1 a.
The ship is heavily damaged, destroyed by weapons consistent with other Thargoid attacks, leaving green hull scarring and some kind of green gas throughout the area.

We’ve been pulled out of hyperspace.
Unknown vessel commencing scan, systems shut down. Preparing to get under way once scan complete.
Wait… Wait… What… it’s charging something new…
…Signal terminated at source…

---

The Banner Class Bulk Cargo Ship BTG-237 was last reported in orbit of the moon Pleiades Sector IR-W d1-55 5 a.
The ship is heavily damaged, destroyed by weapons consistent with other Thargoid attacks, leaving green hull scarring and some kind of green gas throughout the area.

We’ve tried hailing them, Sir, but we don’t even know if they can hear us let alone understand us.
We have no choice, we have to abandon ship before it’ s too late.
All hands to escape pods.

---

I want to know the actual text where that came from as well! Please?

.

Closest I could find

History will Decide 4/5
...Bypassing security protocols...
...Secure connection established...

Our latest tests were extremely successful. The mycoid can paralyse a Thargoid system - either physically or technological - in a matter of seconds. It is extremely effective.

I confess: the knowledge that the mycoid causes the Thargoids physical pain brings me some measure of satisfaction. But when one has seen, first hand, the effect of their weapons - seen the destruction, the chaos, the bodies - can one be blamed for wanting them to suffer, as we have?

 

[Valorin]

Even IF that is true, I still can't help but help other people, even if ultimately, it was AEGIS' fault. I will not let others die becuase of someone else, and will rescue them, whoever they may be.

Plus, I also still have to use AEGIS tech if I wish to study the 'goids. So, I'm walking a tightrope. If ultimately, my actions lead to peace, through showing dedication to ultimately trying to help, and never ever firing back, then I did good, even if I'm not destroying bad people.

I am doing rescuing missions as well and help out those in trouble. That's those caught up in the mess, and anyway: who's in real trouble will always get help from me. There are very, very few exceptions.