I don't understand the logic behind the "rebuy is too expensive" shouts
- Thread starter Crimson Kaim
- Start date
I've always advocated getting rid of insurance/rebuy altogether. Think it would stop people chasing the money but also make people less willing to risk their ships doing "stupid" things.
This python pilot has a rebuy closer to 14 million for an armoured CG Python... even my Chieftain has more than 5 million rebuy, but it doesnt take me 3 hours to earn 10 million - more like 30-45 minutes in the right system. Is that really the point though? How many hours should a PvE pilot who has no interest in PvP/combat be obliged to invest in earning credits in order to provide 2.5 minutes of entertainment for someone else while getting absolutely nothing in return?
What would be the best imaginative, yet realistic gameplay, that Frontier could develop, would be to completely do away with the rebuy option entirely.
Since Frontier has set in motion the great "Modepocalypse" (the eradication Solo and PG modes), it is time for the developers to put their best foot forward and take a bold, imaginative step towards realism.
Completely do away with the rebuy "carebear" option.
When a commander dies, they begin again, fresh and new. New name, new Sidey, new bank account.
Regardless of PvE or PvP playing style (although "Modepocalypse" will be taking care of PvE soon enough), removing rebuy option, which is obviously nothing more that a "carebear" pillow to fall back on, would be supported by most, if not all, parties. By removing the "carebear" rebuy, the thrill and intense excitement of player socialization would increase ten-fold.
Think of it. Two commanders battling, each knowing that if they lose, it's back to Eravate at Cleve Hub with a Sidey and ten grand in the bank. Mats, mods, additional ships, Engineer invites, and everything else gone because you have died and your estate was taken by the state. Of course when its all on the line, the intensity of the situation increases. It's back to the days where men where men, and the women loved them for it.
Also, it would make all commanders think carefully before deciding upon their actions, not only in PvP (which is currently being padded with a "carebear" pillow), but in all activities. You want to land on a High-G planet? Well, you better be up on your pilot skills. Want to do some illegal activities? You better make sure it's worth it. You want to explore? Better be sure about mapping out the correct course. You like hanging in the Haz-Res, or partying in the combat zone? Best know what you doing, bucko. You like DUI driving in the SRV, flipping about the Thargoid sites? Better remember that there are no more "carebear" DUI checkpoint anymore.
"But what if I lose my ship and go back to square one?" asks the puffy-cheek, watery-eye, mushy mouth PvE or PvP "carebear" commander.
Man up, youngster! Don't look at it as though the glass is half-empty. Look at it as though you're not thirsty, and therefore, don't care how much water is in the stupid glass. If a commander loses his ship (and everything else), he/she just starts over again and gets to enjoy (once again, that lucky ) the unique experiences that our wonderful universe has to offer. It's almost like bumping nasties with a new girlfriend! Hell, you will probably have commanders doing Kamikaze suicides, or setting off the self-destruct option, just to have another go at the whole mess.
Yes, it is time to end this "carebear" pillow known as the rebuy. Yes, there are a few individuals that will say that we should keep Solo and PG modes, and that we should keep the rebuy system, but they are the exception, not the rule. In a poll taken by the STDC Faction, ninety-five percent of commanders are in favor of removing the "carebear" rebuy pillow.
And so you ask, "How can I help?"
Until Frontier implements this soon-to-be-successful, ground-breaking system, when your commander dies, don't do the "carebear" rebuy. Just hit the "start from scratch" button and show your support to Frontier (especially after that IGN review....oh, and don't forget to show your support to the Patreon commanders, of course, because when e-begging counts, Patreon will be there to help).
Show your support! Stop calling it rebuy. Start calling it "Commander Carebear Ejection Seat".
Remember the STDC motto: "Not only live free, but live for real."
Since Frontier has set in motion the great "Modepocalypse" (the eradication Solo and PG modes), it is time for the developers to put their best foot forward and take a bold, imaginative step towards realism.
Completely do away with the rebuy "carebear" option.
When a commander dies, they begin again, fresh and new. New name, new Sidey, new bank account.
Regardless of PvE or PvP playing style (although "Modepocalypse" will be taking care of PvE soon enough), removing rebuy option, which is obviously nothing more that a "carebear" pillow to fall back on, would be supported by most, if not all, parties. By removing the "carebear" rebuy, the thrill and intense excitement of player socialization would increase ten-fold.
Think of it. Two commanders battling, each knowing that if they lose, it's back to Eravate at Cleve Hub with a Sidey and ten grand in the bank. Mats, mods, additional ships, Engineer invites, and everything else gone because you have died and your estate was taken by the state. Of course when its all on the line, the intensity of the situation increases. It's back to the days where men where men, and the women loved them for it.
Also, it would make all commanders think carefully before deciding upon their actions, not only in PvP (which is currently being padded with a "carebear" pillow), but in all activities. You want to land on a High-G planet? Well, you better be up on your pilot skills. Want to do some illegal activities? You better make sure it's worth it. You want to explore? Better be sure about mapping out the correct course. You like hanging in the Haz-Res, or partying in the combat zone? Best know what you doing, bucko. You like DUI driving in the SRV, flipping about the Thargoid sites? Better remember that there are no more "carebear" DUI checkpoint anymore.
"But what if I lose my ship and go back to square one?" asks the puffy-cheek, watery-eye, mushy mouth PvE or PvP "carebear" commander.
Man up, youngster! Don't look at it as though the glass is half-empty. Look at it as though you're not thirsty, and therefore, don't care how much water is in the stupid glass. If a commander loses his ship (and everything else), he/she just starts over again and gets to enjoy (once again, that lucky ) the unique experiences that our wonderful universe has to offer. It's almost like bumping nasties with a new girlfriend! Hell, you will probably have commanders doing Kamikaze suicides, or setting off the self-destruct option, just to have another go at the whole mess.
Yes, it is time to end this "carebear" pillow known as the rebuy. Yes, there are a few individuals that will say that we should keep Solo and PG modes, and that we should keep the rebuy system, but they are the exception, not the rule. In a poll taken by the STDC Faction, ninety-five percent of commanders are in favor of removing the "carebear" rebuy pillow.
And so you ask, "How can I help?"
Until Frontier implements this soon-to-be-successful, ground-breaking system, when your commander dies, don't do the "carebear" rebuy. Just hit the "start from scratch" button and show your support to Frontier (especially after that IGN review....oh, and don't forget to show your support to the Patreon commanders, of course, because when e-begging counts, Patreon will be there to help).
Show your support! Stop calling it rebuy. Start calling it "Commander Carebear Ejection Seat".
Remember the STDC motto: "Not only live free, but live for real."
This Message has been approved by Commander Joyce Dewitt, Lord Chief Justice of Liberal Arts Associate of Business Major of the STDC Faction
Approved!! people will know when to step back and be more careful instead of just going push throttle death-wards then saying we need better payouts.
A better solution would be to always and ONLY fly the Sidewinder. It's a BEAST...a tiny beast, but still a beast.
verminstar
Banned
I hate to point out the obvious, but thats actually the reason why this and many other threads exist on the subject...too many players are not only doing just that, but they found 100% guaranteed ways of doing it...
But as yer already pointing out the obvious, this special sorta irony wont be lost on ye ^
Probably because commander python pilot didn't figure on being game content for lulz crews. Being killed because you got in over your head in a skirmish where you decided to engage? That's on you. Dropping into a "help us please" cry from FD to deliver goods to a station and being griefed or ganked by "lulz it's murgent!" people who have been bored of the game for two years is on FD, because they do nothing about it and you really can only combat log or "git gud". Where else in the game, during normal game play, will you be griefed or ganked at a station? It's not part of game mechanics. Even lowly pirates and terrorists won't pursue you past the no fire zone these days (too bad). If they would, we'd be more accustomed to the prospect of not being safe inside the station perimeters.
Has bank account buffer from years of playing
Wants harder mode now (even though you can iron man yourself anytime you like, it's not against the rules)
Not even "what you cannot afford to lose" but "what you cannot even fly". I saw a noobaconda the other day in Open, no shields, nothing but cargo slots. Pretty sure it was a lure with gankers waiting for anyone to interdict it. Had no weapons either.
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Negative, I showed a few picts with my humble 128M in my account.. and no big ships.
There is a big difference in self-imposed ironman mode and game-imposed mode: only one chickens out if things go bad. If you can't see the difference then I'd save you the dicussion.
Too many bugs for game enforced iron man.
I do think rebuy can change though.... Definitely lose the engineered modules that were in that ship, and maybe lower the insurance payout as the claim count increases.
As to the OP.... Bit like real life and people choosing to self insure and then complaining when they lose the gamble. Consequence of folks being brought up to not experience, err, consequences of decisions imo.
Credits is so much easier now.... Just started an alt and got 3 ships over the course of a weekend and 3.5 MIL or so assets. Took me over a year on my main to get to the same point :/
I do think rebuy can change though.... Definitely lose the engineered modules that were in that ship, and maybe lower the insurance payout as the claim count increases.
As to the OP.... Bit like real life and people choosing to self insure and then complaining when they lose the gamble. Consequence of folks being brought up to not experience, err, consequences of decisions imo.
Credits is so much easier now.... Just started an alt and got 3 ships over the course of a weekend and 3.5 MIL or so assets. Took me over a year on my main to get to the same point :/
You wouldn't. I ran with a crew a couple of years back- no engineering, only A-ratings- and we could melt end game ships piloted by experienced PvPers. Add massive buffs to combat ships since then, engineered weapons and the strong possibility of one or more of the gankers being in a murdervette and the lone player has absolutely no chance these days.
Quite. Which might very well be why there's a lot less community at community goals these days...
It would be absolutely the reverse. Griefers tend to be time rich- one of their favourite excuses is 'I'm bored'. Once they have a decent credit buffer behind them they'd absolutely revel in taking out other players' ships, squealing in malicious glee like schoolkids given free reign to bully the year below, knowing Joe Average stands to lose weeks of effort when 'ship go boom-git gud or die tryin, n00b!'.
I can see a bright future for Player Groups and Solo if Frontier can't be persuaded to stop fanbhoying for known griefers...
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I think you're confusing two issues here. The situation that you're referring to is simply pilot error. Those CMDRs intentionally fly without rebuy and lose their ship. That's a deliberate choice to take that risk and if someone chooses to take deliberate risks they only have themselves to blame for the consequences. There are some very rare exceptions when a game bug or griefing exploit causes ship loss that isn't the pilot's fault, and those are compensated by support, but even then the CMDR shouldn't have flow without reuby in the first place.
The more common issue about rebuy costs being "too high" isn't usually a direct complaint about rebuy costs per se. It's more of an issue with ship costs (and therefore rebuy costs) scaling exponentially with increasing ship size while ship capabilities and earning potential only scale in a linear manner. That means that while an Anaconda can outperform a Python for many types of missions it isn't 2.5X as effective despite having a rebuy of around 20 million vs. only 8 million for the Python. Same issue with combat, a Corvette is not 4X as effective as an FDL despite the Corvette having a 30 million reuby vs. around 8 million for the FDL. This means that the risk/reward ratio for using larger ships actually becomes worse compared to smaller ships when larger ships should actually be more efficient at those tasks given their costs. As a result I started using lower-cost ship options in "high risk" areas around CGs where I expected to be griefed and trolled frequently. I started using my Vulture at around 1 mil reuby instead of my FDL or Corvette for combat CGs and I started using my Type 7 at around 2 mil reuby instead of my Python or Type 9 for trading CGs. The risk/reward balance for those ships was much better than risking a larger ship, even though I might make less profits at least I wouldn't risk a net loss from having to pay multiple rebuys if I were griefed repeatedly.
There have been many suggestions on how to fix this but fundamentally the biggest problem is that FD doesn't seem to think players should be able to earn consistent incomes higher than around 10 mil/hr regardless of the ship or activity and eventually nerfs those activities into the ground. There are many examples of this, Sothis long-haul trading and massacre mission nerfs are probably the most well known activities that were popular among players for quite a long time before they were nerfed. Most players doing those activities were making around 10-20 mil/hr on average which was generally quite a reasonable income but apparently anything above 10 mil/hr was considered "too high" for FD. This means that unless there happens to be a lucrative income earning method available (and most of these have been nerfed already) a CMDR who loses an Anaconda will generally need 2 hours or more to earn back the rebuy assuming 10 mil/hr earning for most activities. It's even worse if a player loses a Corvette or Cutter which can take 3-4 hours or more to rebuy. During this time a player will often have to go back to some sort of boring income-earning grind rather than playing the content they want to play. With the high frequency of griefing and trolling that still occurs this strongly discourages those players from using their larger ships. Since the C&P rework has been completely ineffective other than to inconvenience and frustrate CMDRs who have accidentally gotten a bounty there is really nothing to reduce this risk for players even though this has been a frequent complaint for players in Open.
The only reason I fly my Corvette is that I enjoy flying the ship and have earned enough credits to cover multiple rebuys. From an in-game earning perspective however the risk/reward balance for larger ships is generally terrible and I usually do most of my income earning activities with small or medium ships just so I can afford to fly my larger ships. Since income earning doesn't scale up properly with larger ships relative to rebuy costs this effectively means that the ship economy is literally backwards from where it should be. CMDRs are usually much better off flying an Asp or Python if they want to earn credits consistently with reasonable rebuy costs and that is usually why players are unhappy about the rebuy costs in large ships.
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The whole rebuy scheme needs to become WAY more nuanced.
It should scale up and down depending on how often you die.
eg. 2% of ship value for first seat .... if you die again soon afterwards it can be upped to 5% ...then 10% ...then 15%
This should scale back down when the length of time between deaths extends.
Similar to how good car drivers are able to get better insurance rates.
(A few different types of insurance would come in handy as well...although maybe that's unnecessarily complicating things)
But the biggest change needs to be the ability to 'store' your rebuy claim.
If I crash my car, the insurance company doesn't say 'pay the excess right now or we take the car and all your money and you get nothing!'
Sure, through some bad luck you could end up back in a sidewinder, but you've still got your insurance to claim when you get around to it and when you can afford it.
So do some missions, work your way back up a little until you've collected a pot of gold big enough to hand over to the insurance company (probably wait until you can afford a rebuy as well), then get your expensive ship back.
Would actually give veterans a taste of being back at the start to, forced out of your big ships for a while and back into Sidewinders and Cobras.
Being forced to scrap money together would still be a punishment and would still make people think twice, but it's not a potentially game ruining rage quit inducing event.
And I don't think any of these things are difficult at all for Frontier to implement.
They already have differing insurance levels on accounts based on when you bought the game (alpha / beta / retail) and. it would be another menu item on space station bulletin boards with some basic saved information on there, not much different to bounties or exploration data.
It should scale up and down depending on how often you die.
eg. 2% of ship value for first seat .... if you die again soon afterwards it can be upped to 5% ...then 10% ...then 15%
This should scale back down when the length of time between deaths extends.
Similar to how good car drivers are able to get better insurance rates.
(A few different types of insurance would come in handy as well...although maybe that's unnecessarily complicating things)
But the biggest change needs to be the ability to 'store' your rebuy claim.
If I crash my car, the insurance company doesn't say 'pay the excess right now or we take the car and all your money and you get nothing!'
Sure, through some bad luck you could end up back in a sidewinder, but you've still got your insurance to claim when you get around to it and when you can afford it.
So do some missions, work your way back up a little until you've collected a pot of gold big enough to hand over to the insurance company (probably wait until you can afford a rebuy as well), then get your expensive ship back.
Would actually give veterans a taste of being back at the start to, forced out of your big ships for a while and back into Sidewinders and Cobras.
Being forced to scrap money together would still be a punishment and would still make people think twice, but it's not a potentially game ruining rage quit inducing event.
And I don't think any of these things are difficult at all for Frontier to implement.
They already have differing insurance levels on accounts based on when you bought the game (alpha / beta / retail) and. it would be another menu item on space station bulletin boards with some basic saved information on there, not much different to bounties or exploration data.
This is why I have several cheap ships that I've fully engineered. That way, when I'm short on credits, I still have an excellent ship to fly!
G5+Power Play Modules on a Cobra Mk.3 or even a Viper Mk.4 is still damn effective... It's also the reason I fly a Chieftain instead of a Python or FDL for combat. Less cost equals less risk and more fun!
I'm with the OP here. Even on a budget, you can build excellent ships for any profession and still afford the rebuy! Why use a FDL when you can't afford the rebuy? Why not just use a cheaper ship in the meantime to accomplish the same results while you build up your credits?
G5+Power Play Modules on a Cobra Mk.3 or even a Viper Mk.4 is still damn effective... It's also the reason I fly a Chieftain instead of a Python or FDL for combat. Less cost equals less risk and more fun!
I'm with the OP here. Even on a budget, you can build excellent ships for any profession and still afford the rebuy! Why use a FDL when you can't afford the rebuy? Why not just use a cheaper ship in the meantime to accomplish the same results while you build up your credits?
A rebuy loss is so much different with many players versus their skills and understanding the game. Those who know the game will deal with it. Those who don't will be very upset. But this post seems to be a lot about Open mode PvP.
Playing in Solo or Group and learning the skills to survive is one aspect of the game. Add in Open mode with a lot of serious dedicated PvP players who have been playing for years perfecting their combat skills is a LARGE learning curve many won't survive with a very expensive rebuy. You do the math. I have the skills to take out griefers but hate and revenge is not the best solution.
“Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.”
Confucius born in the district of Zou near present-day Qufu, China somewhere around -500 BC was accredited with saying it. You decide if it works for you.
Playing in Solo or Group and learning the skills to survive is one aspect of the game. Add in Open mode with a lot of serious dedicated PvP players who have been playing for years perfecting their combat skills is a LARGE learning curve many won't survive with a very expensive rebuy. You do the math. I have the skills to take out griefers but hate and revenge is not the best solution.
“Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.”
Confucius born in the district of Zou near present-day Qufu, China somewhere around -500 BC was accredited with saying it. You decide if it works for you.
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It's 5% of ship and module cost. That's re-buy. If it's more than about 5% of your available funds, then one has to ask why are you in a ship above your means? The entire point of re-buy is that it's supposed to act as a brake on suicide-as-resolution for all manner of events. If you are flying close to rebuy as a total? That's on you. That's not a game design issue or another player's issue.
People complain "what about my lost cargo or missions?" but that's a risk you accepted, that you may be affected by player or by the AI; either or (because we're told every other day of the week the AI can be hard and mean) on the way. You accepted that risk when you took the job on.
The problem isn't actually re-buy, it's that commanders simply don't like to be held accountable; what percentage it is, or how much people have doesn't even enter into it. This is borne out by the fact most people's re-buy costs are born of their own stupidity, not due to any other cause and that doesn't apparently even rate a mention, if it's an external factor, suddenly end of the world.
How many people have vent about ship loss because they coasted at full speed into the ground at a station because alt-tabbed; versus "i was shot by this OP AI, nerf plox" or "some commander was jerk-face, i have some feels". People hate consequences. That's it.
Ignore the credit angle; it's irrelevant. Credits are a means to an ends, not an ends to a means. People can be a hobo and lose a ship and that's no big deal and people can be the 1% and whine incessantly about it. This, in a game, where Frontier has gone considerably out of it's way to remove about as much consequence as possible.
Me? I lose ships occasionally. Sometimes it's me. Sometimes it's not me and I just don't really care. My available capital covers anything fine with like a ridiculous margin. Over time, wealth should accrete so this becomes a non-event, even for large ships. How much that is for each player, is left up to them (or should be, really).
If you wanna be a space hobo? Run a lean and mean existence? You do you and that's awesome (hell, one of my accounts is essentially a professional space hobo). But you typically don't see too many hobo's driving Porsche and Lamborghini and Ferrari much, hey. Just a thought.
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Side note; pleased to see Frontier focusing on constructive game improvements, and adding a little risk to endeavours again. This is pretty cool to see the developer mature and improve the experience in the process.
People complain "what about my lost cargo or missions?" but that's a risk you accepted, that you may be affected by player or by the AI; either or (because we're told every other day of the week the AI can be hard and mean) on the way. You accepted that risk when you took the job on.
The problem isn't actually re-buy, it's that commanders simply don't like to be held accountable; what percentage it is, or how much people have doesn't even enter into it. This is borne out by the fact most people's re-buy costs are born of their own stupidity, not due to any other cause and that doesn't apparently even rate a mention, if it's an external factor, suddenly end of the world.
How many people have vent about ship loss because they coasted at full speed into the ground at a station because alt-tabbed; versus "i was shot by this OP AI, nerf plox" or "some commander was jerk-face, i have some feels". People hate consequences. That's it.
Ignore the credit angle; it's irrelevant. Credits are a means to an ends, not an ends to a means. People can be a hobo and lose a ship and that's no big deal and people can be the 1% and whine incessantly about it. This, in a game, where Frontier has gone considerably out of it's way to remove about as much consequence as possible.
Me? I lose ships occasionally. Sometimes it's me. Sometimes it's not me and I just don't really care. My available capital covers anything fine with like a ridiculous margin. Over time, wealth should accrete so this becomes a non-event, even for large ships. How much that is for each player, is left up to them (or should be, really).
If you wanna be a space hobo? Run a lean and mean existence? You do you and that's awesome (hell, one of my accounts is essentially a professional space hobo). But you typically don't see too many hobo's driving Porsche and Lamborghini and Ferrari much, hey. Just a thought.
--
Side note; pleased to see Frontier focusing on constructive game improvements, and adding a little risk to endeavours again. This is pretty cool to see the developer mature and improve the experience in the process.
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Can I talk to the person behind this huge ego? I'm sure he/she is probably reasonable enough to read his own words and understand his misdirection.
Ah, assumptions. Such a handy tool to back up some claims. Reality is tough, let's make an assumption with a figure that proves our point.
Example from life - my last two days.
Having over 220M I decided to buy FDL. A-rated FSD, D-rated rest, smallest PP and cargo build with shields. No weapons (playing in Mobius, tho all non combat ships are weaponless). Current rebuy of hat build is slightly over 2.2M. After all purchases Iąm left with 186M. Pfft, 2.2M when you have 186, you may say. Well, I play to increase my wealth so I can afford better ships and equipment, not to blow credits for rebuys. So I set that 186M as a bottom line and will see how fast I can recover.
With 2.2M rebuy cost in mind I started doing delivery missions. Let's see how fast I can earn my rebuy. Two days ago I earned 1.5M, yesterday I got about 800k. About 2.3M in total, for two evenings of lazy delivering. Many stations I visit I'm allied with, yet missions are in 30-60k range. Math is simple, my chosen way of life requires two full evenings for a single rebuy of FDL. At this rate, covering my FDL purchase will be done in just under a month.
Now - any single mishap, failed interdiction escape, is a major drawback. Single rebuy is two evenings wasted.