[IDEA] What about a community driven "CMDRs to avoid" list..

Can someone point out the changes to the Criminality system coming in 2.1 which have been hinted at or confirmed by any of the devs?

I can't seem to find any post stating this - all I can find are Sandro's 1 2-month-old posts starting with "No ETA or guarantee" and ending with "Remember, at the moment this is all hypothetical".
 
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Goose4291

Banned
Can someone point out the changes to the Criminality system coming in 2.1 which have been hinted at or confirmed by any of the devs?

I can't seem to find any post stating this - all I can find are Sandro's 1-month-old posts starting with "No ETA or guarantee" and ending with "Remember, at the moment this is all hypothetical".

Might be worth waiting till tonight. Lave Radio are interviewing Zac and/or Ed regarding 2.1 and this was a question I raised. Hope that helps.
 
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I think one of the main reasons this idea is getting quite a negative reaction is largely because of AA's tendency to label criminal players as 'griefers' which implies that by attacking other players they are somehow breaking the game rules. If they changed it to a crime reporting system rather than a 'griefer' alert system, the idea might get a more positive response. As it is currently, the system comes across as a bit witch-hunty and self-righteous.
 
Meh...just means that players wrongfully accused disappear into Private and rewards bad behavior of bad actors with more of the gameplay they desire.
 
Problem is that people are still thinking about this in terms of morals and what is morally right or wrong. But these morals are based on what works in the society that we can currently live in. They are out of scope for Elite dangerous universe. Griefing, piracy, slavery, smuggling are all a part of the game and this would just be emergent game play as a result of that.

So yes, why not have witch hunts? We already have griefers and the vigilantes. This makes it all the more meaningful and means that player actions have a real consequence. If it gets too much then you can always go into solo or a private group. Sure the system will get abused, but then some other game play will emerge, like other kill lists or vigilante groups taking out the witch hunters.

It's not like anyone uses their real life identities here. These are all commander names.

I've started playing in open a lot of the time now. Before I always played in a private group with my husband, or as part of expedition or group project. But since getting back from the Black I've been focusing on my PvP combat skills. And that means finding other people who shoot back. I finally found one on Sunday in Leesti. It was a wanted FDL trying to interdict a clean Asp. I didn't have an interdictor myself because I am not interested in piracy. But I have nothing against genuine pirates, they add some fun to trading which can be a grind at the best of times. The Asp broke away and got to the station in time but I was only interested in the FDL.

Luckily the FDL then interdicted me so I submitted and immediately attacked it. It was my first ever battle with another player. It was quite close at first but eventually I started getting the edge and when he was down to 8% and I was down to 22% he tried running away. To be honest I didn't really care about blowing him up. Just as well really because I realised that I was flying backwards instead of catching him up. But I had my first fight and despite being away from Elite for a week on holiday and fumbling around with my new set up I was happy with how it went. I even got to try out silent running for the first time.

The point is though that I wasn't any more morally right than the pirate. I got into the fight for my own selfish reasons. I may want to take out griefers (not pirates) because I really dislike them, but that would still be for my own personal satisfaction. Traders who do the Robigo run are effectively smuggling slaves, which would be a heinous crime in real life. But this is a game. The slaves aren't real. By definition the consequences of a game are less dramatic than doing it for real.

Create the list if it adds to the game play. Otherwise don't bother.
 
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Unfortunately, one of the most prolific seal clubbers in the game is also a combat logger... I won't name him but he's a bit of a pain because he's been attacking sideys for months on end and then logs as soon as he gets any decent opposition. People like that can't really be dealt with by global bounty boards etc.. I know FDev have dealt with the persona I'm talking about really briefly but he's right back doing it again as soon as his shadow ban expires etc.. There's no real effective deterrent to this kind of cheating "in-game" so personally I favor some kind of public cheaters board which perhaps newbies should be made aware of etc.. so that they can add such people to their block lists. I have no problem with there being a high burden of proof for this kind of thing. There's reams of footage for the guy I'm thinking of..

So now the cheater? thats something new... Tell us something more... go ahead. [haha]

You came out with it by yourself? It seem so as You exaggerated some facts again, makin yourself look like a liar, again. Love how ppls talk stuff that they have litte knowledge about, and they make up the story. Nice try. One more thing, there was never ever any ban...
 
So yes, why not have witch hunts? We already have griefers and the vigilantes. This makes it all the more meaningful and means that player actions have a real consequence.

For the obvious reason of accountability.

  • By whose standard are you being judged ?
  • If you find your name is on a black list to whom do you appeal to get it remvoed ?
  • If you know with certaintly that they're wrong and they say no, then what ?
Those that do maintain KOS/Bad player lists really should keep them internal.
 
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Goose4291

Banned
For the obvious reason of accountability.

  • By whose standard are you being judged ?
  • If you find your name is on a black list to whom do you appeal to get it remvoed ?
  • If you know with certaintly that they're wrong and they say no, then what ?
Those that do maintain KOS/Bad player lists really should keep them internal.

Particularly when it's a player group known for using dirty tricks to try to tarnish the name of other player groups, to make them look like white Knights in less informed circles.
 
I think one of the main reasons this idea is getting quite a negative reaction is largely because of AA's tendency to label criminal players as 'griefers' which implies that by attacking other players they are somehow breaking the game rules. If they changed it to a crime reporting system rather than a 'griefer' alert system, the idea might get a more positive response. As it is currently, the system comes across as a bit witch-hunty and self-righteous.

No, the problem is that crime reports are unverifiable. You can probably trust your close friends, and even they can make mistakes. But once the list goes public, there is no way to check what is submitted. Honest players can make mistakes. Less honest players can submit false reports to frame other players. Way less honest players can submit lots of false reports to frame other players AND discredit the list. Since there is no way to carry out the legal procedures that in the real world are required precisely for these reasons, such a list will turn into a witch hunting tool, without any doubt. Yes intentions are good but you know, the road to Hell etc.
 
So now the cheater? thats something new... Tell us something more... go ahead. [haha]

You came out with it by yourself? It seem so as You exaggerated some facts again, makin yourself look like a liar, again. Love how ppls talk stuff that they have litte knowledge about, and they make up the story. Nice try. One more thing, there was never ever any ban...

Ooo, how salty... What makes you think I'm talking about you? I think all I said was a prolific seal clubber who combat logs.. I didn't mention any names.
 
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Problem is that people are still thinking about this in terms of morals and what is morally right or wrong. But these morals are based on what works in the society that we can currently live in. They are out of scope for Elite dangerous universe. Griefing, piracy, slavery, smuggling are all a part of the game and this would just be emergent game play as a result of that.
Griefing is not, rest is, but I will grant that many people misunderstand the meaning of griefing of late.
Per actual definitions, see dictionaries and/or wikipedia for example. Greifing is specifically trying to ruin the game for others, so it isn't part of any game, what people usually called griefing is often ganking, where several people attack a target they couldn't otherwise take out, that is part of the game yes.
 

Goose4291

Banned
My first use of the ignore button in the Forums and it works great :D

I'd disagree with that. Overzealous use will lead to the creation of an echo chamber where you'll start to assume your opinion is 100% on the money everytime.
 
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Highlighted the main point for you. The key to your list is that you trust the AA members who create the entries. How would Adle's Archangels trust CMDR JoeSchmoe when he wants to add CMDR SealClubber to that list - and how can other CMDRs trust that Adle's Archvillains do not use this list to propagate their own KOS goals?

Assume that there are two lists - one by Adle's Archvillains, containing all known members of a sinister organisation named The Café, and a second list from the renowned organistaion The Café, containing all known members of Adle's Archvillains. And both of those lists were publicly readable - and publicly extendable? Or assume CMDR MagicHash, associated with The Café, publicly wants to add CMDR Polyester, associated with Adle's Archvillains, to that list - because Polyester once killed MagicHash, and had that documented?

As long as such lists are private to a closed player group, they're ok - the potential for abuse is small, you trust your fellow commanders. As soon as you go public, you'll either have to trust everyone - or you'll have to verify each and every entry on that list, defend it against people wanting to remove it and leaving yourselves wide open to any claims of partiality. You're effectively enthroning yourselves as judges. Don't go that way.

Let me try another formulation: as long as such a list is local to a player group, it is (arguably) still in-game. As soon as you go public, or just outside your player group, you transcend this boundary and make this list part of the "Real World". And the real world has lots of ways of making that backfire to you.

There are probably several reasons why FD don't maintain such a list, at least in public. The workload to the maintainers and the potential for abuse are probably two of them.

All very valid concerns. One idea that I had was that we could release a public tool to submit names to our list; the list itself, however, would not be publicly viewable. We could then corroborate individual claims based on the frequency of reports and on our own dealings with them.
 
Yes, that is true. I recently cleared my ignore list: variety being the spice of life.

I always play in Open, lost my ship surely 20 - 30 times half of it because a much stronger ship attacked me and I never complaint about that - there were Pirates, Imperials or Feds who do there job but I don't wanna give any griefer much attention so I protect me from me to not start a discussion with such people. Everyone should do what he likes in here or ingame but I don't want to support griefing with my attention even I get destroyed 50 times so let them play how they play but without me.
 
I always play in Open, lost my ship surely 20 - 30 times half of it because a much stronger ship attacked me and I never complaint about that - there were Pirates, Imperials or Feds who do there job but I don't wanna give any griefer much attention so I protect me from me to not start a discussion with such people. Everyone should do what he likes in here or ingame but I don't want to support griefing with my attention even I get destroyed 50 times so let them play how they play but without me.

No worries, whatever works best for you! :)
 
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