Ignoring or harming PvP in game design is contributing to ganking

[Morbad]

You said you can prove you have the ability to control who you instance with positively. That you can choose who to instance with some how other than with a group.

I can prove that I can influence instancing weights without using the wing feature (which is what I assume you mean by 'grouping', but you never clarified that point).

I would have thought that other instancing weights were obvious, given how these features are described.

Go ahead prove it, I'm waiting.

And where is your CMDR waiting?

It's hard to demonstrate multiplayer instancing with just one player, or anything to someone who isn't willing to listen.

 

[Stelar 7]

I can prove that I can influence instancing weights without using the wing feature (which is what I assume you mean by 'grouping', but you never clarified that point).

I would have thought that other instancing weights were obvious, given how these features are described.



And where is your CMDR waiting?

It's hard to demonstrate multiplayer instancing with just one player, or anything to someone who isn't willing to listen.

I've shown that you accept the effects of my block list by playing open, when you claim that I'm denying you agency you need to prove that you had agency to be denied. That some right exists and is being infringed upon.

So for your claims to stand you need to show that you have a right to instance in a way which is some how being infringed.

You claimed you could do this, not we could do this. So I'm waiting for you to prove it.

Why don't you outline precisely what you intend to prove and your methodology for that demonstration. Then anyone can replicate your claim and have the evidence for themself.

 

[Mohrgan]

In the system in SC. I assumed it would've been obvious as we both seemed to know that "blocking someone out of my instance" isn't possible.

Edit: in case it still isn't clear : I entered my friends SC instance.

So which has more weight? The Friends list or the Block list? Do you even know if the previous opponents were still in the same system? Were you newly grouped with that friend as you instanced with them? It's all pretty vague, and hardly reaches the level of evidence, beyond anecdotal.

You entering a friends instance of SC, seems more a matter of the friends list preferring to drop you in an instance with friends, than the Block list excluding you from instancing with your opponents. If the friend was already instanced without your opponents, why blame it on the Block list?

 

[soloe]

So which has more weight? The Friends list or the Block list? Do you even know if the previous opponents were still in the same system? Were you newly grouped with that friend as you instanced with them? It's all pretty vague, and hardly reaches the level of evidence, beyond anecdotal.

You entering a friends instance of SC, seems more a matter of the friends list preferring to drop you in an instance with friends, than the Block list excluding you from instancing with your opponents. If the friend was already instanced without your opponents, why blame it on the Block list?

Okay. Let's leave it at that. I don't have any video evidence, access to any underlying data fdev might have about instances, or alike. I have my word only and since that's obviously not enough for you, I won't go into more detail. I'm convinced enough to not like blocking.

 

[Morbad]

That some right exists and is being infringed upon.

So for your claims to stand you need to show that you have a right to instance in a way which is some how being infringed.

My claim has nothing to do with what you think my rights are. Your claims in that regard, and your definition of consent, are things I flatly disagree with and have no expectation of seeing eye to eye on. They are also not facts to be demonstrated, but subjective interpretations.

The only fact in dispute here is wether or not I can influence instancing other than via the wing function, which is something that can be readily demonstrated.

I've shown that you accept the effects of my block list by playing open, when you claim that I'm denying you agency you need to prove that you had agency to be denied.

This is completely self-evident. If blocking works, then you are imposing your filter on your whole instance and everyone inside it, unless you think blocking evicts you...which is very easy to demonstrate is not the case.

If that is what you want me to prove, this is as easy as putting both our CMDRs in the same instance and having yours block mine. Our CMDRs will remain instanced until one of them leaves. If my CMDR, after having being blocked leaves, he will not be able to reenter the instance your CMDR is in, no matter who else is in the instance with your CMDR (unless I wing with some of them).

You claimed you could do this, not we could do this. So I'm waiting for you to prove it.

Why don't you outline precisely what you intend to prove and your methodology for that demonstration. Then anyone can replicate your claim and have the evidence for themself.

I was intending to find an area with at least two identifiable instances where your CMDR could go.

If I then entered that area and was paired with your CMDR, I could have a third party block me and friend you, then I could re-instance, which would most likely result in my CMDR being pushed into one of the other active instanced.

If we were initially in different instances, simply friending your CMDR, or anyone one else in their instance, then re-instancing would likely be enough to put my CMDR in your CMDR's instance.

 

[galahad2069]

Really?!

Carcosa ring a bell? I think there might have been one or two posts about this.

We've just spent a week in Colonia (yay carriers!) in order to unlock the engineers there. We are already on our way back to San Tu atm.

I visited Carcosa a number of times during the last week, but it was always like a ghost town, I never met a living soul there. I left an alt in Colonia though, just in case.

 

[Stelar 7]

My claim has nothing to do with what you think my rights are. Your claims in that regard, and your definition of consent, are things I flatly disagree with and have no expectation of seeing eye to eye on. They are also not facts to be demonstrated, but subjective interpretations.

They are facts. Consent has a legal definition one I'm using. Refusal to accept that definition does not reflect well upon you. Your rights in game are also facts. That you would represent them as mere opinion demonstrates your utter lack of credibility on this topic. We both agreed to an EULA and you are arguing for a circumvention of its dictates.

Every thing I said about consent is a demonstrable fact of the game. One you claim is somehow wrong based on your feelings and an apparently imaginary right to instance.

...a giant strawman.....

You claim you are being prevented from instancing where you otherwise ought to be able to.

That ought is a figment of your imagination. You were supposed to prove that you have the ability to controll who you instance with positively. Obviously you can block someone and not instance with them which affects instancing without using groups. So any pretense that you need only show blocking has an effect is straw. Utter nonsense, a desperate bid to change the topic from the simple absurdity you claim to be injured by someone else's block list.

I was intending to find an area with at least two identifiable instances where your CMDR could go.

If I then entered that area and was paired with your CMDR, I could have a third party block me and friend you, then I could re-instance, which would most likely result in my CMDR being pushed into one of the other active instanced.

If we were initially in different instances, simply friending your CMDR, or anyone one else in their instance, then re-instancing would likely be enough to put my CMDR in your CMDR's instance.

What you need to demonstrate is that you have the capability of meeting another commander in an instance by some process other than grouping.

A good example would be if you can always or even consistantly get to the same copy of Davs Hope that I'm sitting in. What tool do you have for that? None?

 

[Morbad]

A good example would be if you can always or even consistantly get to the same copy of Davs Hope that I'm sitting in. What tool do you have for that? None?

Simply adding your CMDR to my CMDRs friends list would do this. Even simply having been instanced with your CMDR previously would likely be enough.

This is easily demonstrable. Go ahead and try it yourself.

 

[Morbad]

Utter nonsense, a desperate bid to change the topic from the simple absurdity you claim to be injured by someone else's block list.

I didn't change the topic. You did when you started to make counter-factual assertions about instancing. It seemed foolish to try to explain my reasoning when it became evident we probably didn't have the same understanding of the functionality involved.

I will reiterate that other players being able to keep me from placing my CMDR with those I do not choose to be excluded from is undesirable and therefore harmful. This is obvious and self-evident.

Regardless, you seem to be more interested in expounding hypocrisy and legalese than actually trying to understand where I could be coming from and seem utterly unwilling to acknowledge basic facts about the game mechanisms in question. So, we're at an impasse, and frankly I find your presumptions biased and insulting, so I'm putting you on ignore.

 

[Mohrgan]

Okay. Let's leave it at that. I don't have any video evidence, access to any underlying data fdev might have about instances, or alike. I have my word only and since that's obviously not enough for you, I won't go into more detail. I'm convinced enough to not like blocking.

I believe everything you said, just not what you said it meant. I think that it is very much the point that there are too many variables to assign any detriment to instancing from the Block list. Certainly the Block list has no more effect on things than the Friends list does. Yet no outrage over the Friends list at all. Go figure.

 

[Stelar 7]

...Blocking is bad....

...so I'm putting you on ignore.

Ah hahahahahaha

 

[ManlyVIK]

Can blocking be abused? As in if grieferdelance is interdicting you and you just block him, would that save you from the encounter? Hopefully not.

But really, why block anyone? Kind of defeats the purpose of playing in open.

 

[Havvk]

Can blocking be abused? As in if grieferdelance is interdicting you and you just block him, would that save you from the encounter? Hopefully not.

But really, why block anyone? Kind of defeats the purpose of playing in open.

Because it's okay to not want to hang out with "That Guy". You know, the kind that you don't want to be around.


Well it's like that for a lot of CMDRs.

 

[ManlyVIK]

@Havvk Open is supposed to contain all kinds of players nice ones and jerks. You should only be able to block chat messages from players in open, not the actual player in my opinion. If you want to block players from your game that's what solo and private group are made for.

 

[Morbad]

Can blocking be abused?

Anything that can function contrary to intent, or that can have undesirable implications, can be abused.

Imagine being part of an event like DW2, or a PvP tournament, and silently blocking others who haven't arrived yet, causing all sorts of instancing trouble and wasting everyone's time as they try to diagnose non-existent problems.

Burden of proof would probably be extremely hard to meet for such a thing, so I doubt it's ever been called out or punished.

As in if grieferdelance is interdicting you and you just block him, would that save you from the encounter? Hopefully not.

Yes, it generally does, because supercruise is a separate instance from normal space, requiring the interdictor and the interdictee to be able to successfully re-instance with each other if the interdiction is successful or submitted to.

 

[ManlyVIK]

Anything that can function contrary to intent, or that can have undesirable implications, can be abused.

Imagine being part of an event like DW2, or a PvP tournament, and silently blocking others who haven't arrived yet, causing all sorts of instancing trouble and wasting everyone's time as they try to diagnose non-existent problems.

Burden of proof would probably be extremely hard to meet for such a thing, so I doubt it's ever been called out or punished.



Yes, it generally does, because supercruise is a separate instance from normal space, requiring the interdictor and the interdictee to be able to successfully re-instance with each other if the interdiction is successful or submitted to.

Disappointing. It's already happening

 

[Havvk]

@Havvk Open is supposed to contain all kinds of players nice ones and jerks. You should only be able to block chat messages from players in open, not the actual player in my opinion. If you want to block players from your game that's what solo and private group are made for.

I'll stick with being able to block you and still play with everybody else, thank you very much.

 

[Morbad]

I'll stick with being able to block you and still play with everybody else, thank you very much.

Well, everybody who doesn't happen to be instanced with him first.

 

[Havvk]

Well, everybody who doesn't happen to be instanced with him first.

Unless I pay attention to who I add to my friend's list

 

[Slange Lands]

Instancing is so borked in this game that even nine people, who all friended each other and made sure that their block lists were clear, couldn't instance together. We had a PvP League match in San Tu last month and we tried for forty minutes straight to instance with each other using every trick in the book.... in vain. We had to reschedule the match. Other teams experienced the same.

Blocking is so powerful and instancing is such a crap shoot that it can break up wings of friended Commanders.

So yeah, please please block with care. And be understanding if asked to unblock for temporary situations.

FDev, if we could have a chat block only, that still allows instancing with the player's ship, that would be heaven.