In the Beta Spirit...

[[VR] Merkir]

You're stating that it shouldn't be not automated, because it is like a "child's toy". You're painting the lack of automation in a negative way. You're just trying to sidestep that by pointing out you didn't say it in a specific way.

You can't criticize a mechanic as unrealistic on one hand, and then turn around and claim "It's a game" when that's turned back on you. You contradict yourself directly. Either you didn't have any point at all, or you didn't think your criticism too far through and are backpedaling it.

I said none of that. That's you putting your bias and extrapolating your assumptions onto what I said. I didn't say how the FSS should change, nor did I "criticize a mechanic as unrealistic". On the contrary, the mechanic itself is totally realistic, and would be very appropriate for a 1960's Earth setting, or as a child's learning toy in the context of the ED Universe, as I said.

For the record, here it is again.

Hypothetically, if I were asked my professional opinion of the FSS (or DSS) in the context of the ED Universe, I could only characterise it as a child's toy, or at best a child's learning toy. Why? Because any electrical engineer would simply take the FSS and add basic 20th century tech to automate it.

It's a professional opinion (quite factual I believe) of what the FSS actually is. An observation only.

Note that I made no criticisms and no suggestions in that statement. So what does it say about your thinking, that you have read all those negative and non-existent things into this statement?

 

[[VR] Merkir]

The trouble is, one could apply the same notion to most features of ED.

I agree. Although I'd say many features, not most.

When you’re playing a game, you’re expected to do certain things that qualify as gameplay. If you automate those things, then you’re left with less gameplay (one of the biggest gripes about ED).

Again I agree. That's why I said FDev have chosen to make the FSS like a child's learning toy, because they believe the hand-eye coordination of the tuning dial and zoom buttons is fun, or at least some sort of gameplay.

And yes automating the FSS would be futile. You might as well go back to the ADS. But I'm on record saying that I would scrap the FSS to do the exploration with far more realistic modules/technologies using realistic scientific principles and methodologies, making it more of a choice/strategy mini-game rather than the fine motor skills mini game we've been given.

 

[Ezren]

I said none of that.

And then you quote yourself saying that. Bravo.

You're pretending it's a "professional opinion", but your opinion is clearly not nearly so valuable as you seem to think it is. I know you think you're stunning everyone with the idea of "automate the thing" but that was mentioned already and it's been discussed before came stumbling in with your "professional opinion".

You're carefully trying to remove any meaning from your words, dubbing everything an "observation" as if you're somehow above the very discussion you decided to inject yourself into. You keep saying "I didn't say that", to the point where it seems you didn't actually say anything at all.

 

[Bryan K]

I agree. Although I'd say many features, not most.



Again I agree. That's why I said FDev have chosen to make the FSS like a child's learning toy, because they believe the hand-eye coordination of the tuning dial and zoom buttons is fun, or at least some sort of gameplay.

And yes automating the FSS would be futile. You might as well go back to the ADS. But I'm on record saying that I would scrap the FSS to do the exploration with far more realistic modules/technologies using realistic scientific principles and methodologies, making it more of a choice/strategy mini-game rather than the fine motor skills mini game we've been given.

I too would adore if they’d give us some proper scientific tools and realistic approaches to exploration (a spectrometer and some non-visible light imagers would be amazing), but at this point I think it’s too late to ever get another complete rethink of exploration.

The FSS is what we got, and I’ll take it over the ADS any day of the week.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

And then you quote yourself saying that. Bravo.

Umm, where?

 

[[VR] Merkir]

You're pretending it's a "professional opinion".

I'm not pretending. It is. And you got it for free.

I know you think you're stunning everyone with the idea of "automate the thing" but that was mentioned already and it's been discussed before came stumbling in with your "professional opinion".

I didn't, and I'm not. In fact I just said automating the FSS would be futile. We'd simply end up with something like the no-gameplay ADS.

You're carefully trying to remove any meaning from your words, dubbing everything an "observation" as if you're somehow above the very discussion you decided to inject yourself into. You keep saying "I didn't say that", to the point where it seems you didn't actually say anything at all.

I injected myself into the conversation only to back up another poster who said that he thought the FSS mechanics were childish, which was refuted by others.

So yet again, everything you've said is simply you adding your bias or incorrect assumptions onto what I've said.

 

[Ezren]

I'm not pretending. It is. And you got it for free.



I didn't, and I'm not. In fact I just said automating the FSS would be futile. We'd simply end up with something like the no-gameplay ADS.



I injected myself into the conversation only to back up another poster who said that he thought the FSS mechanics were childish, which was refuted by others.

So yet again, everything you've said is simply you adding your bias or incorrect assumptions onto what I've said.

And again, all you've said is what you "didn't" say. Even things you demonstrably have said.

Though funny that you "backed up" the commentary about the "childish" mechanics, using the exact same argument that was already addressed and refuted. Congratulations on bringing the thread three pages back.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

And again, all you've said is what you "didn't" say. Even things you demonstrably have said.

Though funny that you "backed up" the commentary about the "childish" mechanics, using the exact same argument that was already addressed and refuted. Congratulations on bringing the thread three pages back.

And now you're making even less sense.

Hypothetically, if I were asked my professional opinion of the FSS (or DSS) in the context of the ED Universe, I could only characterise it as a child's toy, or at best a child's learning toy. Why? Because any electrical engineer would simply take the FSS and add basic 20th century tech to automate it.

This statement really could have been left behind three pages ago if you hadn't repeatedly kept adding your bias and incorrect assumptions to it. But I'll keep repeating it until you realise your assumptions are incorrect.

On a related note, I have no idea why a simple observation like this seems to infuriate some people. I mean (rhetorical questions coming up) do people really think they are using some state-of-the-art FSS interface? Is it the type of interface that a professional explorer would use in the ED setting, given all of the other tech we see? Hard to believe some people feel the need to desperately try to refute a fairly obvious and innocuous observation. I assume the "child's learning toy" is what infuriates people. If it helps, I saw another post here which was relevant, and allows me to expand my comment somewhat as follows:

Hypothetically, if I were asked my professional opinion of the FSS (or DSS) in the context of the ED Universe, I could only characterise it as a child's learning toy or amateur enthusiasts device. Why? Because any electrical engineer would simply take the FSS and add basic 20th century tech to automate it.

Does that help?

 

[M00ka]

On a related note, I have no idea why a simple observation like this seems to infuriate some people. I mean (rhetorical questions coming up) do people really think they are using some state-of-the-art FSS interface? Is it the type of interface that a real explorer would use in the ED setting, given all of the other tech we see? Hard to believe some people feel the need to desperately try to refute a fairly obvious and innocuous observation. I assume the "child's learning toy" is what infuriates people. If it helps, I saw another post here which was relevant, and allows me to expand my comment somewhat as follows:



Does that help?

Maybe people don't like the condescending tone of your posts, you stated your 'PROFESSIONAL OPINION' so therefore it must be right - that is how it reads.

Secondly, your weak assumption that 20th/21st technology would seamlessly integrate into 34th Century hardware [to quote: Why? Because any electrical engineer would simply take the FSS and add basic 20th century tech to automate it. ] is just guessing, there is no basic of fact. For starters how do we know that they even use electricity (as we know and understand it now) in the future.

The simple fact is FD designed a component of the game to make 'busy time' because the community as a whole asked for it. For years the explorers pleaded for something to do, for some new mechanics other than the ADS, something task for them to perform out in the black so they feel as though they are doing something. Not saying the FSS was the right choice, but it is the choice FD made!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Sir seems huffy!
...I suppose then I'll leave you to enjoy you empty space.

What empty space would that be. Nothing huffy about what I said.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

And yes automating the FSS would be futile. You might as well go back to the ADS. But I'm on record saying that I would scrap the FSS to do the exploration with far more realistic modules/technologies using realistic scientific principles and methodologies, making it more of a choice/strategy mini-game rather than the fine motor skills mini game we've been given.

The issue with making it based on scientific principles, it could make it stupidly complex. Don't confuse complexity with depth or fun. Even the simplest of games can be fun. Pac-Man and space invaders being a good example, they are still fun to play today.

Sometimes you make a system complex and it ruins the game as it just gets frustrating and annoying. There needs to be a fine balance. Is the FSS a bit too simple, maybe but that depends on the individual. There are adults on this forum who think it's already too complex. It may not be scientific enough for you or me, but the average person has no knowledge of these things but want to pretend that they do, that's where the FSS come in.

Look at the bigger picture and not whats good for you personally.

I personally wouldn't want a strategy mini game for exploration. That doesn't sound right to me. But I would like more of a tactical discovery process, maybe sending out probes to the different planets you have found in a system to discover what they are, managing those probes in the orrery map (a good use for the orrery map), while in transit to another planet.

That is what I would have liked, but I ain't going to get it. It's the FSS which we have which is far far better then what we had before, but it sure isn't what I wanted and neither do I think it's perfect.

The FSS has some tactics in it, but not enough in my view. Much, much better then the ADS though which left nothing to the imagination.

Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for. Sometimes things sound great on paper, but in reality don't work in a computer game at all. The FSS does work though.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Secondly, your weak assumption that 20th/21st technology would seamlessly integrate into 34th Century hardware [to quote: Why? Because any electrical engineer would simply take the FSS and add basic 20th century tech to automate it. ] is just guessing, there is no basic of fact. For starters how do we know that they even use electricity (as we know and understand it now) in the future.

I’m pretty sure that taking advantage of one of the fundamental forces of nature will still have an important role to play in making stuff work in the future.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Secondly, your weak assumption that 20th/21st technology would seamlessly integrate into 34th Century hardware [to quote: Why? Because any electrical engineer would simply take the FSS and add basic 20th century tech to automate it. ] is just guessing, there is no basic of fact. For starters how do we know that they even use electricity (as we know and understand it now) in the future.

Even if a mayor revolution in electricity happened (which is incredibly unlikely because as it stands, electromagnetism is pretty darn well understood and shows little to no theoretical holes), electromagnetism would still be taught and learned and applied by mere virtue of it's relative simplicity compared to whatever this new theory might be.

The mere fact that you are considering such preposterous possibilities to make your case is a good example of grasping for straws, did I mention modules and powerplants still use and produce electricity and it's measured in watts?

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Maybe people don't like the condescending tone of your posts, you stated your 'PROFESSIONAL OPINION' so therefore it must be right - that is how it reads.

I don't read it like that because that's not what it means.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Secondly, your weak assumption that 20th/21st technology would seamlessly integrate into 34th Century hardware [to quote: Why? Because any electrical engineer would simply take the FSS and add basic 20th century tech to automate it. ] is just guessing, there is no basic of fact. For starters how do we know that they even use electricity (as we know and understand it now) in the future.

No electricity eh? Ok let's explore that avenue, despite how implausible it is...

Let's say in the ED setting they've chosen not to use electricity. One could then reasonably argue that they are using a different technology other than electricity. Then one can argue that using the new technology is likely to provide most, if not all, of what was previously available using electricity, otherwise why not just use electricity.

And given that, in your Universe where electricity isn't used, I'd update my statement to read, "Why? Because their equivalent of our electrical engineer would simply take the FSS and add their equivalent of basic 20th century tech to automate it."

The simple fact is FD designed a component of the game to make 'busy time' because the community as a whole asked for it. For years the explorers pleaded for something to do, for some new mechanics other than the ADS, something task for them to perform out in the black so they feel as though they are doing something. Not saying the FSS was the right choice, but it is the choice FD made!

I feel pretty confident in saying that most players didn't ask for 'busy time'. But the rest of this paragraph I agree with.

 

[Faded Glory]

The simple fact is FD designed a component of the game to make 'busy time' because the community as a whole asked for it. For years the explorers pleaded for something to do, for some new mechanics other than the ADS, something task for them to perform out in the black so they feel as though they are doing something. Not saying the FSS was the right choice, but it is the choice FD made!

You're right that some players asked for some active gameplay for exploration rather than just the passive flying and scanning, and indeed the FSS is what FD came up with. I'm not sure the community as a whole asked for it, but for sure FD wanted more players to engage in exploration, they knew from their metrics that players shunned it, and they knew from feedback that for many exploration was simply too dull and passive.

The FSS addresses the big criticisms that exploration faced. Instead of the long, dull SC journeys to passively scan a body when you finally got close enough you can now scan the whole system from the main star, and it also added the ability to tell whether a planet might have something interesting on it to give a reason to make that potentially long and dull SC journey out to it.

The problem is simply (IMHO) that FD have decided to funnel all of exploration through that one mechanic. I can't for the life of me see why they did that. The FSS isn't particularly engaging to use, nor is it particularly challenging to use, and I think if they had simply made it a tool that you could use to scan bodies from afar if you so wished, or a tool that you could use to find out if a body had something of interest to warrant a journey to it, it would have been a raging success.

I can't really think of any other area in the game where the player has one way and one way only of accomplishing a goal, and to be honest, in a game as open as ED, it seems a strange way to do things. There are dozens of different ships a player can choose to use, multiple types of ship builds that a player can use, many and different types of weapons... You and I could take identical missions and complete them successfully and enjoyably in completely different ways, yet if a player wants to explore, they have to do it all through the FSS.

That is a somewhat mystifying decision IMO.

 

[Burke]

Gentlemen i congratulate you on your stamina. Fight the good fight to the very end, this flame shall be eternal!

I myself remain disgusted, of course.

That is my BIGGEST gripe and the thing that broke our PG... none of us play now as Exploration was 'our' thing and we were all of the same mind

So very true. The ADS was a tool for players who were capable of generating their own narrative. Its removal is a sad loss and has left the game diminished. Imo.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

Gentlemen i congratulate you on your stamina. Fight the good fight to the very end, this flame shall be eternal!

I myself remain disgusted, of course.



So very true. The ADS was a tool for players who were capable of generaing their own narrative. Its removal is a sad loss and has left the game diminished. Imo.

Burke, much as I side with you to a point on the removal of the ADS and the installation of the FSS, in that it made my style of exploration much more difficult to the point of loss of motivation, the post you quote from is in fact about Autoresolve, a different issue, but to me and our PG even more destructive that was introduced to lever acceptance of the 3.3 overhaul.

 

[Burke]

the post you quote from is in fact about Autoresolve

Lol. Whats PG then?

Wait... player group?

 

[CMDR Karrde Sun]

We almost had a civilised and fruitful discussion here... until the whiners reappeared.
Meanwhile I'm under the impression that some people, while pretending to solve a problem, just want to babble.

Its not whining unless you have a toxic and obsessive hatred for the ads. This round of discussion was very civil and enjoyable until the two people who are frustrated merely at the fact people are talking joined the thread, and started saying so every other response.