In what way is griefing a good thing to have in a game?

[Micha]

This is not boxing, or NASCAR, where things are designed to be *equal.* In a cutthroat galaxy (which this is supposed to be), then the more natural laws will tend to hold sway. In other words, most fights will not be fair, nor should they be expected to be. Those who are predators are going to pick off the weaker/less prepared/less capable prey, and that should be expected.

Some of the responses in here almost sound like people believe that they should be able to flounce around in this environment in a ship that has scant protection, offensive, or escape capabilities without being accountable for what might happen because of that decision.

The issue is that the balance has shifted significantly since the game launched. While no, it shouldn't ever be *equal*, there shouldn't be such a huge gap as at present either. People able to put the time and effort into the game and their ships can outclass others by several orders of magnitude now. Not everybody has the time to invest to make these uber-builds, but why should there be such a huge disparity that people are encouraged out of open? It's bad for the hunters and the prey both.

One obvious issue is engineering. Another issue is stacking of defensive modules.
The former is somewhat balanced against itself (people are even saying it favours defence) but totally overpowered against unengineered ships.
And if the latter wasn't a thing, then weapons wouldn't have to be so powerful either, which means that the *original* prospect of flying general-purpose ships becomes more tenable again. At present unless you both engineer AND stack defensives, significantly impairing other roles you might want your ship to be able to do, you have little chance of escaping an encounter alive.

No, I'm not campaigning that a general-build should be able to take on a fighter-build in a fight, but the difference shouldn't be orders of magnitude either. The general-build should at least be able to survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive or to have a decent stab at escaping.

 

[Jenner]

Please stay on topic and off each other's backs, everyone. Thanks.

 

[Stealthie]

Seems like griefing isn't a thing that's ever good for a game.

Getting attacked by another ship, OTOH, probably isn't griefing.

Having said that, I had my exploration AspX exploded a few times, last night, while I was shuttling it around some engineers and, I gotta say, I think I'm going to start blocking people who just attack me without even bothering their arses to send any kind of comm's message.
If I'm going to be somebody's content, they might, at least, try to make it entertaining.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Seems like griefing isn't a thing that's ever good for a game.

Getting attacked by another ship, OTOH, probably isn't griefing.

Having said that, I had my exploration AspX exploded a few times, last night, while I was shuttling it around some engineers and, I gotta say, I think I'm going to start blocking people who just attack me without even bothering their arses to send any kind of comm's message.
If I'm going to be somebody's content, they might, at least, try to make it entertaining.

They tried that. People just logout. Because people just logout. They go for the kill as fast as possible. No room to talk.

Piracy and the type of interaction you would like died because the game has too many options not to lose.

 

[Riverside]

They tried that. People just logout. Because people just logout. They go for the kill as fast as possible. No room to talk.

Piracy and the type of interaction you would like died because the game has too many options not to lose.

Clearly you're generalising here but to continue this generalisation if all the griefers just go full alpha strike why would anyone want to be instanced with them? This tactic seems counterproductive as you've described it.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Clearly you're generalising here but to continue this generalisation if all the griefers just go full alpha strike why would anyone want to be instanced with them? This tactic seems counterproductive as you've described it.

not really. When the last time you seen a PVPer use a wake scanner or a pirate use a manifest scanner? Some guys in the code just stopped using it because its counter productive.

I've streamed several days where I tried to pirate or even punish them for not listening and they just task-kill or menulog.

So everyone just ganks with maximum force now. Its pretty rare for legit piracy to happen. Because both parties have to participate. And generally no one wants to lose.

It happens quite often. Its not hard to get this result. People even have macros set up for this.

 

[Riverside]

Because both parties have to participate.

This is the crux of the issue I feel. Regardless of how things should be, this is how it is.

In Stealthies example above, we have a player in open, in a non-PvP ship, or at least not min/maxed for defence, which isn't unusual for a player that doesn't regularly get attacked by other players.

This player is playing in Open, accepting that they may lose a ship, essentially agreeing to be ideal content for a pirate (to be fair, probably not actually carrying cargo). Why would they not use the block list, or switch to solo or whatever?

I play in open too btw & have an empty blocklist, I know why I do (and said so earlier in the thread), I'm interested to know why you think they should stay in Open & not use the blocklist. What benefit is there to the lone Cmdr?

 

[Faybs]

not really. When the last time you seen a PVPer use a wake scanner or a pirate use a manifest scanner? Some guys in the code just stopped using it because its counter productive.

I've streamed several days where I tried to pirate or even punish them for not listening and they just task-kill or menulog.

So everyone just ganks with maximum force now. Its pretty rare for legit piracy to happen. Because both parties have to participate. And generally no one wants to lose.

It happens quite often. Its not hard to get this result. People even have macros set up for this.

So traders and explorers log out because they think they have no chance to survive, so the pirates adapt by hitting even harder? This is just the vicious circle spinning faster and faster... it's not your fault though, what else can you do? FDev needs to figure out a way to reward productive behavior from both sides, otherwise open is just going to be a bunch of frustrated KoS mongers. We've seen that the stick (C&P) doesn't work, FDev needs to come up with carrots.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

So traders and explorers log out because they think they have no chance to survive, so the pirates adapt by hitting even harder? This is just the vicious circle spinning faster and faster... it's not your fault though, what else can you do? FDev needs to figure out a way to reward productive behavior from both sides, otherwise open is just going to be a bunch of frustrated KoS mongers. We've seen that the stick (C&P) doesn't work, FDev needs to come up with carrots.

[video=youtube;GibiNy4d4gc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GibiNy4d4gc[/video]

I mean lion king taught this lesson well. Go watch that.

 

[Stealthie]

They tried that. People just logout. Because people just logout. They go for the kill as fast as possible. No room to talk.

Not my problem, I'm afraid.

 

[Stigbob]

So traders and explorers log out because they think they have no chance to survive, so the pirates adapt by hitting even harder? This is just the vicious circle spinning faster and faster... it's not your fault though, what else can you do? FDev needs to figure out a way to reward productive behavior from both sides, otherwise open is just going to be a bunch of frustrated KoS mongers. We've seen that the stick (C&P) doesn't work, FDev needs to come up with carrots.

C&P isn't about stopping ganking/griefing/PVP its about adding some consequences to criminal behavior whilst still allowing it as its legitimate (thought it can be very lame).

People should moan less about how others choose to play and take action themselves through mode choice and blocking anyone they don't like playing the video game with.

This is a "problem" that's already fixed.

 

[Bigmaec]

Did someone answer what griefing is?

Is griefing:

- interdicting players who don't like it? (I'd say no)
- interdicting & pirating players who don't like it? (I'd say no)
- attacking players who don't like it? (I'd say no)
- attacking players repeatedly at a CG/engineer/hotspot/CZ? (I'd say no)
- attacking players repeatedly via friend list in several systems? (I'd say propably, depends on the circumstances)
- harrassing players via chat? (I'd say yes)
- Station ram players/use other exploits? (I'd say yes, but the former is negated by DON'T SPEED!)
- attacking players via wing aka ganking? (I'd say no, it's wild west out there...)
- playing the BGS from solo/PG (I'd say no)
- and for the record: exploring systems and painting your name on them? (I have to say yes because Zarek Null says so...)

There is not much left regarding griefing in game in my opinion.

 

[MrFailfactory]

The issue is that the balance has shifted significantly since the game launched. While no, it shouldn't ever be *equal*, there shouldn't be such a huge gap as at present either. People able to put the time and effort into the game and their ships can outclass others by several orders of magnitude now. Not everybody has the time to invest to make these uber-builds, but why should there be such a huge disparity that people are encouraged out of open? It's bad for the hunters and the prey both.

One obvious issue is engineering. Another issue is stacking of defensive modules.
The former is somewhat balanced against itself (people are even saying it favours defence) but totally overpowered against unengineered ships.
And if the latter wasn't a thing, then weapons wouldn't have to be so powerful either, which means that the *original* prospect of flying general-purpose ships becomes more tenable again. At present unless you both engineer AND stack defensives, significantly impairing other roles you might want your ship to be able to do, you have little chance of escaping an encounter alive.

No, I'm not campaigning that a general-build should be able to take on a fighter-build in a fight, but the difference shouldn't be orders of magnitude either. The general-build should at least be able to survive long enough for reinforcements to arrive or to have a decent stab at escaping.

No, Micha - the issue is that people continue to think that this is Frontier's issue to solve. It isn't. Frontier has done their part by providing two other modes, one of which includes other players. Another issue is that some people appear to think that they should not have to change the way they play, or the way they equip their ships (which includes what ship to use in the first place) when they play in Open. Again, this is not Frontier's issue to fix.

As I understand it, you can escape a fully Engineered death-machine in an un-Engineered ship if you are using a ship capable of doing do, have equipped it properly, and by using the correct tactics. I don't think this has changed.

Riôt

 

[Dietger]

While there are definitions about what is grieving or a griever, some better some useless, typically drawing hypothetical scenarios here contributes nothing to the subject matter.
Frontier allows, actually encourages, player versus player scenarios. Above all, your not permitted to harass someones personage. Beyond this principal rule everything is allowed.
So we kill each other for what reason deems us good enough or without any reason at all, all the same, do what ever pleases you. It is OK. No "grieving". Why is Frontier Dev. so cruel? What where they thinking!?

Even Sandro didn't learned the mind reading trick - yet, that's why. We can't honestly say, when is somone grieving me and when not period.

So why are "grievers" acceptable in Elite? Drama.



Game and game


Two games two rule sets. Make sure your actually play the game you want to play, no I am not trying to get you upset. Its Open for some players, its solo or PG for others, all three if you must.
Elite needs Drama, so there is nothing obscene in attacking other space ships in Open. Until that day, we start read each others mind...


S!

 

[DeletedUser191218]

While there are definitions about what is grieving or a griever, some better some useless, typically drawing hypothetical scenarios here contributes nothing to the subject matter.
Frontier allows, actually encourages, player versus player scenarios. Above all, your not permitted to harass someones personage. Beyond this principal rule everything is allowed.
So we kill each other for what reason deems us good enough or without any reason at all, all the same, do what ever pleases you. It is OK. No "grieving". Why is Frontier Dev. so cruel? What where they thinking!?

Even Sandro didn't learned the mind reading trick - yet, that's why. We can't honestly say, period.

So why are "grievers" acceptable in Elite? Drama.



Game and game


Two games two rule sets. Make sure your actually play the game you want to play, no I am not trying to get you upset. Its Open for some players, its solo or PG for others, all three if you must.
Elite needs Drama, so there is nothing obscene in attacking other space ships in Open. Until that day, we start read each others mind...


S!

I appreciate you're trying to add a constructive contribution but you've missed the point of the original question. I think everyone is aware of the way the game currently is. We're questioning whether griefing adds anything to the game. You have actually reinforced my, and others', view by saying if you dislike people wanting to ruin the game experience for you then you shouldn't play in open. I don't see how that's a good thing. There are probably way more players forced into solo because of griefers than there are griefers. Hence, a small but prominent group are ruining the game for a lot of people. To my mind, that's not something to be celebrated as a success of the game.

 

[ethelred]

The definition of griefer is problematic because:-

Murderhobos add to my game because they make it more exciting.

Being "hunted" adds to my game.

Being continually insulted, stalked and being prevented from playing my game (by physically blocking my ship etc) doesn't.

 

[Dietger]

I appreciate you're trying to add a constructive contribution but you've missed the point of the original question. I think everyone is aware of the way the game currently is. We're questioning whether griefing adds anything to the game. You have actually reinforced my, and others', view by saying if you dislike people wanting to ruin the game experience for you then you shouldn't play in open. I don't see how that's a good thing. There are probably way more players forced into solo because of griefers than there are griefers. Hence, a small but prominent group are ruining the game for a lot of people. To my mind, that's not something to be celebrated as a success of the game.

I am well aware of the OP question. What do "grievers" add to the game? As I said above they add Drama to the game. We can't mind read, so we can't honestly say if we are being grieved or not. Frontier is well aware of this.
In context here (Elite D.) we have no prove. Getting shot at by other players is gameplay. It adds drama to Elite D.

Regards

 

[FNLWA]

Adding funds/time to change open to drive MORE people away from PG/solo is prioritizing open as a mode. That's all there is to it.

Guess I really need to spell it out. Griefing by the nature of the action is a thing that happens in open. Doing something about it, and get ready to have your mind blown, would affect open. You're complaining that doing something about griefing would affect open, and because all modes are equal and open should not be prioritized any potential problems open might have should be left alone, because that would affect open. Makes sense bro.

Lol, that is exactly WHY they made PG/solo. You are missing the point entirely, ergo your questions are moot. And it works fine. The game is doing great by the Devs accounts.

Sure. I mean it's not like exploration was working as intended for 4 years. Mining too was working as intended. Engineers were working as intended when they got released. Food for thought.

 

[Dietger]

The definition of griefer is problematic because:-

Murderhobos add to my game because they make it more exciting.

Being "hunted" adds to my game.

Being continually insulted, stalked and being prevented from playing my game (by physically blocking my ship etc) doesn't.

Agreed. Well said.

 

[Electric Kite]

It's something that has always perplexed me. I'm all for pvp with someone who's up for it but not ganking people who just want an open mmo experience without some idiot hell-bent on ruining the game for people. Ganking ruins ED in my opinion. You can't do CGs in open as you'll invariably qet these guys exercising their right (as decided by fdev) to anti-social behaviour. I'm of the belief these guys likely lack the courage for confrontation in real life and so enjoy the tingle they get from being a keyboard warrior. I don't get what it's supposed to add to the game? So can someone explain why ED benefits from a small subset of players being encouraged to actively attempt to make another's game experience unpleasant?

Please note - this is a GAME. I've heard the 'space is a dangerous place' sort of argument but it isn't space. It's a video game. I've also not seen a rebuy screen from a ganker since my lowly days of flying an un-engineered Cobra mk3 so i'm not embittered by some recent altercation.

It would be good if someone from FDev could advise what they see as the benefit of allowing it. I know there will be a raft of 'tough guys' with their usual responses to this kind of question. I'm just going to ignore them.

If nothing else..these whinge threads alone are enough reward for anyone griefing.

Hell, im not a greifer and even I want to go out now and blow someone up just to see a pathetic thread like this one.