Incrementally Improving PowerPlay - Make PowerPlay Open-Only

[Northpin]

And yet were never playing to the same risk as those in Open were.

That's the same argument for Open-only BGS too, isn't it? or Open only anything
But risk is relative.
Even in open - didn't you pointed out that instancing is not guaranteed?
And it is less guaranteed for the player that would want to play solo in Open (by block / firewall instance manipulation)

And the circlle is complete - the modes and the networking model are quite a strong indication that direct interaction is possible but not guaranteed nor mandatory

 

[CMDR Cknarf]

Unless something is changed, I don't see me ever using powerplay for anything other than spaceship parts.

At the end of the day, it's just a crappier BGS cargo task that doesn't pay very well.

If anything, they should exponentially buff the incentives when your power is on top, and increase weekly pay.

 

[Robert Maynard]

At this point you're just repeating the same things over and over and this is getting ridiculous. We could get this thread to 200 pages and you'll still refuse to understand Powerplay is dying and Open Only is the only way to make it viable without rewriting it from scratch.

The repetition is not limited to one side of this debate - that has been ongoing for over five years. In terms of repetition, there hasn't been a novel proposal put forward by those seeking to have the feature PvP-gated in a long time now - these proposals are repeats and variants of other proposals that have failed to sway Frontier.

I don't agree that Open only is the only way that Powerplay could be improved and I have hopes that Powerplay could be improved for all players. I don't expect those who want to take it for themselves at the expense of others to share that view though.

 

[GloatingSwine]

A population of 1000 between 11 powers (which is the estimate of dedicated pledges) is not viable- its tiny when Powerplay demands numbers to even out power choices between players.

Can you call that a sucess worth keeping?

And changes which make it less attractive or even impossible to any of those 1000 players will reduce that even further.

Which pushing it into Open only would be.

The suggestion doesn't match the objective. It won't reinvigorate Powerplay with a new dedicated playerbase because most of the core content of it still won't be interesting.

 

[Chrystoph]

I have been told by many people that they want to be able to attack the people that are disrupting their objectives. None have had good rebuttals to:

• PP plays across all game platforms but gameplay does not, therefore you cannot directly resolve those actions by killing players on other platforms (PC v XBOne)
• If you are in a completely different timezone than the opposition and their play time, then you cannot fight because they are not there
• You cannot see other players on the galaxy map unless they are on your friends list, therefore, you cannot actively track them
• For PowerPlay, and to a lesser extent, the BGS, you as an individual, can only safeguard one place at a time and cannot see where they are if they are not in your sensor window; if they go elsewhere, your activity does nothing to stop them
• Peer to Peer Instancing doesn't guarantee an encounter even if they are present in the same system, and lack of normalization in internet connectivity doesn't guarantee the instance stays if you get one

Bluntly, PvP does nothing for you if you have nothing to shoot, and that ignores all the people you drive away by forcing them into a more combat-centric methodology.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

I just dont understand if in CQC pvp cannot be avoided, why it should be diffrent in Power P

• PP plays across all game platforms but gameplay does not, therefore you cannot directly resolve those actions by killing players on other platforms (PC v XBOne)
• If you are in a completely different timezone than the opposition and their play time, then you cannot fight because they are not there
• You cannot see other players on the galaxy map unless they are on your friends list, therefore, you cannot actively track them
• For PowerPlay, and to a lesser extent, the BGS, you as an individual, can only safeguard one place at a time and cannot see where they are if they are not in your sensor window; if they go elsewhere, your activity does nothing to stop them

All wrong, but I adress your points individuallly:
1. You dont have to kill anybody to meet your objective in Power play, area denial is what is enaugh to push expansion, prevent fortification or turmoil, killing players is just a bonus, often impossible to achive.
2. It's true, but mu faction knew exactly one of important enemy player group was palying, and we were in the same place thx to HUMINT
3.Not true, you can track power play bounty boards that show biggest underminers, those usally operate in wings, so heading to system indicated by board allow disrupting enemy opeation by pvp action, btw, happened in the past that player succesfuly tracked by bounty board and attacked switched to solo mode to conntinue PP
4. This is true for BGS work, as each power continue they work within own domain, direct clashes with enemies are not that common, but for sure they happen, Power play OTOH have known hotspot, that are guaranteed to have a lot of players traffic, they cant really go elswhere.

 

[Chrystoph]

First, I notice that, to make your point, you had to slice off the foundation of my statement, making your entire response a strawman.

Now, to answer you:

1. Since the entire point was that people wanting Open Only and PvP-gating was the point of the statement, you merely trolled by completely ignoring the fact that you cannot engage in PvP across platforms. You didn't Answer anything, you corrupted the existing statement after cutting off the premise.

2. You say, All Wrong, then agree with it. Then you make some statement that has nothing to do with timezones to validate your position.

3. An apples and oranges comparison, the bounty boards can show you where activity has been, it does NOT show you anything in real time. I will admit that they may still be there, but that is not the Galazy map in any case so it won't be showing you ALL of the opposition.

4. False correlation in that the hotspots are not Required locations, they are just Likely locations. If I choose to do my work in some other location than you are, BY DEFINITION, you are not there. Literally, I come in, see you and your associates, and leave to another location.

Oh, look, I did all of that without perverting your statements. All I had to do was point out all of the places you perverted mine.

 

[Khan Tannhauser]

The repetition is not limited to one side of this debate - that has been ongoing for over five years. In terms of repetition, there hasn't been a novel proposal put forward by those seeking to have the feature PvP-gated in a long time now - these proposals are repeats and variants of other proposals that have failed to sway Frontier.

I don't agree that Open only is the only way that Powerplay could be improved and I have hopes that Powerplay could be improved for all players. I don't expect those who want to take it for themselves at the expense of others to share that view though.

I was trying to have a conversation with you that doesn't go in circles, but that's clearly impossible. I give up lol

 

[Khan Tannhauser]

I have been told by many people that they want to be able to attack the people that are disrupting their objectives. None have had good rebuttals to:

• PP plays across all game platforms but gameplay does not, therefore you cannot directly resolve those actions by killing players on other platforms (PC v XBOne)
• If you are in a completely different timezone than the opposition and their play time, then you cannot fight because they are not there

As a PC player I personally cannot oppose those in XB and PS4, but the console guys in my team can. Same goes for the timezones, there's people from different places in the world in every Power. I don't expect to counter all the enemy actions in Open by myself, Powerplay is a team effort.

• You cannot see other players on the galaxy map unless they are on your friends list, therefore, you cannot actively track them

Reading this I don't think you understand how Powerplay naturally creates hot spots every week. HQs, expansions, prep races... you don't need to track individual enemies to be able to find them, since they do their activities in a relatively small number of systems. This is not new, it's been like that since cycle 1.

• For PowerPlay, and to a lesser extent, the BGS, you as an individual, can only safeguard one place at a time and cannot see where they are if they are not in your sensor window; if they go elsewhere, your activity does nothing to stop them

You should try to think about Powerplay as a team game, and not from the point of view of "an individual". I can try to hunt enemy commanders in one place, my team mates can be in another, and as I said earlier, there's a limited number of systems relevant for PP every week, depending on who's prepping, expanding, etc.

• Peer to Peer Instancing doesn't guarantee an encounter even if they are present in the same system, and lack of normalization in internet connectivity doesn't guarantee the instance stays if you get one

Bluntly, PvP does nothing for you if you have nothing to shoot, and that ignores all the people you drive away by forcing them into a more combat-centric methodology.

Instancing sucks and could be vastly improved but I don't expect to instance with every single commander who jumps into a system. Being able to instance with some of them would be a huge improvement compared to not seeing anyone because they are in Solo. This is somewhat related to the point you raised about the timezones, as who you instance with depends greatly on where you are. If you're NA, it's very likely you'll instance with other NA CMDRs, but you'll usually have a hard time instancing with EU folks unless you have them in your friend list. Again, you'd instance with some people and your team mates would instance with some other people.

 

[varonica]

At this point you're just repeating the same things over and over and this is getting ridiculous. We could get this thread to 200 pages and you'll still refuse to understand Powerplay is dying and Open Only is the only way to make it viable without rewriting it from scratch.

Exactly the point, these same things, both for and against open only PP have been said over again in both this and multiple preceding theads, that's why I simply replied no, it doesn't all need to be resaid over and over again, just go back and read the old threads.

 

[Khan Tannhauser]

Exactly the point, these same things, both for and against open only PP have been said over again in both this and multiple preceding theads, that's why I simply replied no, it doesn't all need to be resaid over and over again, just go back and read the old threads.

You don't need to justify why you replied "No". Some people prefer to share their opinions, but a "No" is fine too I guess.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I was trying to have a conversation with you that doesn't go in circles, but that's clearly impossible. I give up lol

Sadly, the discussions on this topic only every cover old ground so are bound to be circular.

 

[Rubbernuke]

.... because in this game PvP is an optional extra for those who wish to engage in it and is not required in any game feature (apart from CQC). Frontier set the challenge posed by the NPCs in the game taking into account all players. It is noted that that challenge may not meet with the desires or expectations of some players.

And you still dance around the fact that one mode does not balance with another. NPCs provide no challenge (which is needed to stop things devolving into blind races), they don't make your life hard, chase you, slow you down at all. Its not 'expectations of a few players', its making a feature that actually functions for everyone.

If it is designed to be a competitive PvP only feature, yes. As implemented it is not a feature that requires PvP to be part of the competition.

Powerplay is competitive, you have places 1 - 11, and via solo and PG you can essentially sidestep any obstacles. This is why NPCs need to be radically harder- G5 and nasty who get in your face everywhere- or players do it in one mode opportunistically.

The BGS works in a similar way, just with a slower "tick" - and some players have been complaining about players in Solo and Private Groups "affecting their BGS" for years. Michael Brookes was quite clear in his response when asked.

No, you are incorrect.

Powerplay is real time in feedback- actions you do show up instantly and can be traced back to individuals. Powerplay itself has no tick at all, just a start and finish time since you can see how you are doing and a 'tick' is one real world second. The BGS takes every action and adds everything up over 24 hours to apply it via the abstracted BGS layer- cause (player action) and effect (the BGS) are applied differently to Powerplay where its a direct shoot / haul = progress 1:1 map.

 

[Rubbernuke]

And changes which make it less attractive or even impossible to any of those 1000 players will reduce that even further.

Which pushing it into Open only would be.

Well, the interest in Open Powerplay when polled was about 5.5K, which is five times the level the population is now.

The suggestion doesn't match the objective. It won't reinvigorate Powerplay with a new dedicated playerbase because most of the core content of it still won't be interesting.

Well, it makes Powerplay closer to Star Wars Squadrons (except with real time player set objectives) so would be unique in ED.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's the same argument for Open-only BGS too, isn't it? or Open only anything

For some people, yes. I don't support an Open BGS because I realise its not set for that- plus the BGS has mechanisms to make things harder while Powerplay does not.

But risk is relative.
Even in open - didn't you pointed out that instancing is not guaranteed?
And it is less guaranteed for the player that would want to play solo in Open (by block / firewall instance manipulation)

And is why I always say its opportunistic PvP- its you dealing with what you come across. People will have to accept FD dealing with cheaters and accept some people would play on sub optimal connections too- but it comes down to numbers. A high enough population of 'regular' connections / players will render them irrelevant.

And the circlle is complete - the modes and the networking model are quite a strong indication that direct interaction is possible but not guaranteed nor mandatory

Not really- as I explained. Modes work for the majority of EDs features- they do not for Powerplay.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And you still dance around the fact that one mode does not balance with another. NPCs provide no challenge (which is needed to stop things devolving into blind races), they don't make your life hard, chase you, slow you down at all. Its not 'expectations of a few players', its making a feature that actually functions for everyone.

No dance steps involved - Frontier set the challenge posed by NPCs in Powerplay - and they are not set at the level that equates to players. I would agree that there's a case to make Powerplay NPCs a bit more effective.

Powerplay is competitive, you have places 1 - 11, and via solo and PG you can essentially sidestep any obstacles. This is why NPCs need to be radically harder- G5 and nasty who get in your face everywhere- or players do it in one mode opportunistically.

I suspect that the upper limit level of challenge that Frontier would be prepared to set Powerplay NPCs to won't satisfy some players. I don't agree that the feature requires to be PvP-gated.

No, you are incorrect.

Powerplay is real time in feedback- actions you do show up instantly and can be traced back to individuals. Powerplay itself has no tick at all, just a start and finish time since you can see how you are doing and a 'tick' is one real world second. The BGS takes every action and adds everything up over 24 hours to apply it via the abstracted BGS layer- cause (player action) and effect (the BGS) are applied differently to Powerplay where its a direct shoot / haul = progress 1:1 map.

The aggregation period being different, i.e. instant vs. 24 hours, does not mean that the features aren't similarly affected by players' PvE actions. The complaints about players in Solo and Private Groups affecting the BGS are no different from complaints about those players affecting Powerplay.

 

[Bashy81]

Agree with the OP for Powerplay.
There isnt anywhere that player interactions have to be considered. Powerplay is ideal for that, being as it is all about direct competition between playergroups.

Sadly, the discussions on this topic only every cover old ground so are bound to be circular.

well if youd stop circling the debate like some kind of forum vulture you might read something new, instead of stifling new voices with the same old ignorant nonsense as always.

For you its a tired old debate, because it has nothing to do with your game. For those who keep calling for OpenOnly Powerplay, its because the overwhelming majority of these communities would like to see it, as they suffer the fatal flaws of your mode equality obsession on a daily basis.

You just suffer the forum threads, because you have no interest in the gamestyle besides your precious principles.

The debate moved on from that the moment the game went live but youre stuck back in 2015 speculating and hypothesising about things we all know is so transparently garbage, from actual experience. Experience is more informative than blissful ignorance btw, a mantra a number of people here might want to take on board.

Unless something is changed, I don't see me ever using powerplay for anything other than spaceship parts.

At the end of the day, it's just a crappier BGS cargo task that doesn't pay very well.

If anything, they should exponentially buff the incentives when your power is on top, and increase weekly pay.

Powerplay doesnt pay. At rank 5 it just about covers your fasttracking costs if u haul for your merits.
That's a clue that it's an endgame activity for when u need something to do with that big fleet you built up.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I have been told by many people that they want to be able to attack the people that are disrupting their objectives. None have had good rebuttals to:

PP plays across all game platforms but gameplay does not, therefore you cannot directly resolve those actions by killing players on other platforms (PC v XBOne)

Each platform has its own playerbase, its nothing complicated. Your team on that platform deal with those they see.

If you are in a completely different timezone than the opposition and their play time, then you cannot fight because they are not there

Because Powerplay is not CQC- its real time. Most powers I know work to plans rather than time zones and as the cycle end approaches powers plans overlap each other. In the past I've had people from Australia, Japan, Germany, Italy, US play at the same time.

You cannot see other players on the galaxy map unless they are on your friends list, therefore, you cannot actively track them

Powerplay is not CQC- its not 1:1 Red Baron stuff. Its opportunistic in nature- why would you have a giant flashing sign above someones head saying HERE I AM! It seems your preception of this is skewed- an Open Powerplay is about chance encounters and the unknown.

For PowerPlay, and to a lesser extent, the BGS, you as an individual, can only safeguard one place at a time and cannot see where they are if they are not in your sensor window; if they go elsewhere, your activity does nothing to stop them

Powerplay is team play- people have tasks and go off to do them. Powerplay was designed to be decentralized but wound up having players organise outside of the game.

Peer to Peer Instancing doesn't guarantee an encounter even if they are present in the same system, and lack of normalization in internet connectivity doesn't guarantee the instance stays if you get one

Opportunistic PvP is the goal- it won't be perfect certainly, but for most it will provide random encounters to complicate and ruin plans.

Bluntly, PvP does nothing for you if you have nothing to shoot, and that ignores all the people you drive away by forcing them into a more combat-centric methodology.

Not really. You have to plan your route better, design your ship better (i.e. you can't min max cargo, you must think of defences) and have to play as a team better (ther will be hotspots of activity when you'll need co-op with other pledges).

Like I said elsewhere, if current estimates are right you'd be swapping a small number for a much bigger one re players.

forcing them into a more combat-centric methodology.

Powerplay is not about holding hands- it never was. The only reason people think like you is because NPCs never actually did their jobs right and molest players- Powerplay is gang warfare and combat is a large part of that.

 

[Robert Maynard]

well if youd stop circling the debate like some kind of forum vulture you might read something new, instead of stifling new voices with the same old ignorant nonsense as always.

For you its a tired old debate, because it has nothing to do with your game. For those who keep calling for OpenOnly Powerplay, its because the overwhelming majority of these communities would like to see it, as they suffer the fatal flaws of your mode equality obsession on a daily basis.

You just suffer the forum threads, because you have no interest in the gamestyle besides your precious principles.

The debate moved on from that the moment the game went live but youre stuck back in 2015 speculating and hypothesising about things we all know is so transparently garbage, from actual experience. Experience is more informative than blissful ignorance btw, a mantra a number of people here might want to take on board.

Is there a suggestion that anything new has been brought to the table in the debate? Those who oppose PvP-gating existing game features by making them Open only are not the only regular participants in threads on this topic.

Apart from CQC, Frontier have chosen not to PvP-gate any game feature in this game - note that it was Frontier's choice, not the choice of the players. It then follows that there is no requirement for any player to enjoy or even tolerate PvP to play this game - so it is unsurprising that players have been drawn to the game with no intention to engage in PvP while engaging in the features that the game offers in whichever game mode they choose.

That a majority of a subset of the player-base want something to be changed to suit them does not mean that anyone has to agree with them.

While some players don't accept Frontier's stance on modes being equally valid choices, they bought the game just like any other player - and have no more, or less, right to engage in features of the game than any other player in whichever game modes Frontier chooses to implement them in. That some players can't, over five years after launch, accept that other players don't need to play with them to affect this game is not the fault of the game nor those players who don't choose to play with them.

 

[Rubbernuke]

No dance steps involved - Frontier set the challenge posed by NPCs in Powerplay - and they are not set at the level that equates to players. I would agree that there's a case to make Powerplay NPCs a bit more effective.

NPCs can't provide a structured resistance to players- you can make them harder but in the end they are held back by other design issues in other parts of the game. So, its far too easy to farm in two modes compared to Open, having repercussions for empire size, defence and attack.

I suspect that the upper limit level of challenge that Frontier would be prepared to set Powerplay NPCs to won't satisfy some players. I don't agree that the feature requires to be PvP-gated.

Its setting the level so that NPCs can make hauling and killing much harder for players- its not me wanting to inflict pain on people, its making the day to day power duties in solo much more unpredictable. Currently you can fly in total safety which seems wrong in a potentially eleven way gang fight.

The aggregation period being different, i.e. instant vs. 24 hours, does not mean that the features aren't similarly affected by players' PvE actions. The complaints about players in Solo and Private Groups affecting the BGS are no different from complaints about those players affecting Powerplay.

In the BGS you can't know player intentions (unlike Powerplay)- Powerplay is unique in that via pledge, location, cargo held you know 100% what someone is doing. You can;t do that in the BGS.