(info) First bonus for playing in OPEN under consideration for PP

[bitstorm]

For me it just comes down to..

The increased risk in open should mean increased rewards.

Players then have a choice. Go for the safer, more stable solo or pg, or go for the more risky open, where you're rewarded at a slightly higher rate but you're also more likely to have an insurance bill.

 

[GluttonyFang]

If Sandro wanted to test the waters on how players feel about the prospect of using bribes to perk up open's population, I would hope that he reads all of this, and comes to grips with the Slippery Slope troubles this would unleash. Immediately upon the mention of his quote those that favor open were already calling for an across the board bonus. There was no consideration of the small, focused scope of Sandro's suggestion, it just went straight to 100 calling for open to be blessed with increased rewards for anything they do.

What bribing? It's bringing actual equality and I explained it over and over.

What does having to bribe players into open say about it's environment? FD are already holding player interaction hostage to PvP, and has found it isn't enough to entice a healthy population into open, so more measures must be taken to keep the PvP aspect filled with enough targets for them to stay interested. Let's hope that in the end they stick to their assertions that all of the modes are equal, and that no mode should be propped up above another.

They are revamping the crime and punishment system and there was never equality between modes to begin with, and that didn't matter, but its matters under a competitive scope, why would you want to compete in an extremely unequal competition?

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I see this argument all of the time, but no one has quantified any benefit to flying in Solo, besides the avoidance of a certain type of player.

No, not certain type of players, all players.

It is all just a construct that helps to create some aura around open. Why should some player's personal game choices, cause the game to be modified in their favor. All of the blessings are available to all of the Commanders out there. They should learn to take advantage of the perceived ease of Solo, rather than complain about it. For some reason people that identify themselves as open players feel entitled to gains just because of their play time choice. It's pandering in the worst way.

Because the game was hosting an unfair competition, of course this change needs to happen. You are completely ignoring the advantages of private and solo in a competitive setting. Solo and private modes were pandered to for a very long time in PP, it's about time to bring some equality into the image.

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So they are just thinking about bribing us with PP influence. To test the waters. Well, I hope the waters get pretty rough before this comes to pass. As soon as it does the floodgates will open with a flood of demands that the bonus be extended to everything done in open. You can see that directly by some responses to this thread.

And you can count on me to fight against proliferating this bonus beyond any competitive mechanic, you have my word.

 

[Abil Midena]

Kristov,

The things I mention in post #138 are exactly the same as trying to grind PP. In PP you grind for a power that is opposed by other powers, in the rest of the game, you grind for a minor faction that is opposed by other minor factions (player groups included).

For example, in PP you transfer leaflets from A to B to support your power. In the game, you transfer cargo, sometimes in conjunction with a mission, from A to B to support your minor faction. The PVE mechanic is identical to each other and independent of Mode. Sandro's reasoning is that Open folks have it harder due to potential interactions with other people, so a buff is needed. You could say the EXACT same thing for the list of things in #138...you could bypass any potential trouble from other commanders from a rival minor faction by going solo/group, so Open needs a buff. Do you get it now?

And working the BGS is support your minor faction is a pvp mechanic as well, as often opposing faction is a player group.

And if you would care to actually read the OP, you would see the thread is not to cause fear. But believe whatever you want, you seem to do that regardless of facts.

 

[Mohrgan]

That argument is standing on less than one leg and struggling, PP is PvP in its overall scope, it's where players are pit against one another to fight for influence, it's PvP through PvE where PvP is the ultimate category the mechanic falls under. PvE is mere means to PvP.



Because it doesn't require statistical data to understand simple rationality.

Think about it, can you really tell me with a straight face that in a competitive setting, the rational choice in maximizing one's influence on PP is not Solo/Private over Open?



Complete and utter strawman, I thought you read this: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=235327

The only reason I approve of this change is because it's done for a competitive mechanic, not the game in its entirety.



You are covering your eyes and typing at this point while throwing strawman left and right.



You either don't read what I write or you are intentionally ignoring the argument that is right in front of you by making speculation on others' intent that has no evidence and if anything evidence of the contrary:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=235327

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Not under a competitive scope you don't.

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You are covering your eyes and typing away, aren't you?

There was never equality of modes, now we are finally arriving at some sort of equality.

The issue between us is that we see things diametrically in opposite directions. You see a phantom advantage to Solo/PG, while I don;t. Your, and Sandro's, assertion is that playing in open comes with penalties compared to Solo. When the answer is staring you in the face. If you want to get the perceived bonus it's right there for you. Just take it. But, instead we get fed some notions coming from the position that open needs special treatment to flourish. Well, maybe it does but, I can't see a reason to prop up a mode that can't sustain itself

 

[GluttonyFang]

There is no reason to insist that PP is a PvP mechanic.

Seriously? Where only player actions influence the mechanic and the mechanic itself calls itself a political competition? Seriously?

There is no reward for killing a commander, only for completing PvE tasks.

Read Sandro's post in its entirety, you don't seem to do that.

I can see no PvP influence at all, except for the constructed view that shooting down apposing Commanders has an impact on the outcome. It has none. People just insist it must, because they want to shoot down others. Show me one solid feature of PP that is directly affected by PvP. The best you will be able to do is stopping other players from doing something that does affect the system. There is simply no justification for asserting PP is a PvP mechanic. The evidence doesn't support that view.

The entire mechanic is PvP merely done through PvE, what you're describing isn't PvP, it's Pking, which is one aspect to PP.

You are either intentionally making your argument vague or you haven't thought this through.

 

[iFred]

Lol. "Its a player vs player"-mechanic. Sure. Just LOL.

You know what?

Just try it. Double the effect for Open-Players. I bet there will be no significant change of player numbers. Not even measurable.

 

[veelckoo]

Why are solo players now mad? Literally NOTHING would change for them. Frontier realizes that open is simply not the same as solo or private and tehrefore has to have a different ruleset. A wise man once said "Don't try to fight for equality when things are inequal." It is like with males and females. males are usually stronger while females have a better instinct (applies to animal and human culture). It can be tried to achieve thigns to be fair but that doesn't mean that things have to be equal.

Fairness does not mean equality.

Solo was meant to replace offline mode - let's say fair enough.
Open players now have harder time then solo/private so lets equal it with bonus multiplier - do as you preach, you should listen to your wise man and just give up fighting for open equality, no?
Now Open players will influence BGS way more than solo players - in turn deciding the shape of universe's economy and politics.
I don't need equality - should FD give me NPC universe, without you influencing it, I will happy.

 

[GluttonyFang]

The issue between us is that we see things diametrically in opposite directions. You see a phantom advantage to Solo/PG, while I don;t. Your, and Sandro's, assertion is that playing in open comes with penalties compared to Solo.

But it isn't phantom, what person is the right mind is going to intentionally cripple themselves in a competition? No one.

I explained this already and I haven't seen any solid objection to it.

When the answer is staring you in the face. If you want to get the perceived bonus it's right there for you. Just take it. But, instead we get fed some notions coming from the position that open needs special treatment to flourish. Well, maybe it does but, I can't see a reason to prop up a mode that can't sustain itself

Because the mode was being treated as a third class citizen in a competitive mechanic, what part of that is difficult to understand?

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Lol. "Its a player vs player"-mechanic. Sure. Just LOL.

Let's see some actual argument against it, or you can keep loling back to your corner.

 

[Mohrgan]

Seriously? Where only player actions influence the mechanic and the mechanic itself calls itself a political competition? Seriously?



Read Sandro's post in its entirety, you don't seem to do that.



The entire mechanic is PvP merely done through PvE, what you're describing isn't PvP, it's Pking, which is one aspect to PP.

You are either intentionally making your argument vague or you haven't thought this through.

While you go around calling things strawmen, you are just grasping at those straws. '...PvP merely done through PvE...' is nothing short of a desperate reach to define PP in your interest. Hint: Just because Sandro says something, that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. When Sandro does something I will have to deal with it, but his opinion doesn't have to be taken hook-line-and-sinker. His comments are just pandering to the PvP crowd so they feel that their positions are being considered, in a effort to keep them playing. That's how I see this. Why else would the suggestion be offer such a marginal reward?

 

[GluttonyFang]

While you go around calling things strawmen, you are just grasping at those straws. '...PvP merely done through PvE...' is nothing short of a desperate reach to define PP in your interest.

Look, present actual arguments if you are going to disagree, otherwise it's just white noise. Claiming confirmation bias is something anyone and everyone can do, put down actual argument or throw your intent speculation into the trash.

Edit:

Let me show you how your speculation does nothing:

"You just don't want this change because you want to hide in solo/private happily taking advantage of the unfair modes. You are trying to desperately define PP as a PvE mechanic because you have no interest in PvP."

See how stupid arguments will get if we go down the speculation line? Don't do it.

 

[iFred]

Gluttony, please...

I dont want to start this discussion again, but the only solution to all problems (besides "42") is: seperate Galaxies/Commanders.

Everything else will beat either the PvP or the PvE players in their face.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Gluttony, please...

I dont want to start this discussion again, but the only solution to all problems (besides "42") is: seperate Galaxies/Commanders.

Everything else will beat either the PvP or the PvE players in their face.

Fine, but FD clearly does not seek to do so, hence why we need to try and work with what FD's bottom line vision of the game is:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=235327

 

[Midnight Sun]

Let's see some actual argument against it, or you can keep loling back to your corner.

I'm fairly sure that PP is a player vs tedium mechanic. You can try and spice it up how you like, with imagination or dodging other players' bullets, that's your choice. Doesn't affect the reality that as designed, the enemy is boredom not other players.

 

[ShimEnki]

OMG why not just have zero rank progress in SOLO and have done with it. It's supposed to be a Universe isn't it? Well too bad we are not able to decide who we want in our own reality - come on FD!
.
Thereby solving the lonely OPEN play for all players. No more mode switching just for extra convenient spawns for Missions and NPCs.

Open is lonely for a real reason and to push CMDRs into that will only bring ED itself into a lonely state---be careful what you ask for.

 

[Mohrgan]

Look, present actual arguments if you are going to disagree, otherwise it's just white noise.

Your opinion of my arguments and how I press them is none of your business. All of your labeling doesn't change the fact that you can't point to a single direct relationship between PP and PvP. You making grand statements about how to view these issues has no effect on me. The basis for your assertions suits you, but fails to convince me. I am not going to just take your word for it.

By your definition you intentionally cripple your self in the PvE battle of PP, by choosing to do it in a mode you feel is less efficient. Your choice is the only thing holding you back. No one else should have to suffer for your individual choice. Open can and will sustain only the population that enjoys playing there.

Open created it's own atmosphere you can't blame the players that have left it, now we have to see players penalized because they have taken the advice; "If you don't want to PvP, don't log in open". Well that sort of backfired, now we see the subject of bribing people into open again. Just let it die already.

Player interaction has been shown to not be a big, or tasty enough carrot to establish a healthy population in open, so it's obvious that something has to be done. So they throw out the incentives idea again. Obvious is as obvious does.

 

[iFred]

Fine, but FD clearly does not seek to do so, hence why we need to try and work with what FD's bottom line vision of the game is:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=235327

Yeah, so the decision is made - we could close this discussion. When the modes are not handled equally, the game will die.

 

[bitstorm]

The issue between us is that we see things diametrically in opposite directions. You see a phantom advantage to Solo/PG, while I don;t. Your, and Sandro's, assertion is that playing in open comes with penalties compared to Solo. When the answer is staring you in the face. If you want to get the perceived bonus it's right there for you. Just take it. But, instead we get fed some notions coming from the position that open needs special treatment to flourish. Well, maybe it does but, I can't see a reason to prop up a mode that can't sustain itself

You can take the view that everyone can just go solo, or you can take the view that various modes should be balanced.

Ultimately if everyone PPs in solo gameplay becomes limited, you've just cut out a whole bunch of potential interactions there.

Meanwhile if open is more risky but with higher reward, people still have that exact same choice that seems to be the core of your argument, yet the spectrum of gameplay is widened. And if you don;t want the risk of that particular type of interaction then sure just stay solo/pg.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I'm fairly sure that PP is a player vs tedium mechanic. You can try and spice it up how you like, with imagination or dodging other players' bullets, that's your choice. Doesn't affect the reality that as designed, the enemy is boredom not other players.

And now Sandro is trying to breathe some life into it and bring it back in line with the vision of the mechanic being player supporting factions and fight over influence, why would anyone want otherwise is beyond me.

 

[Kristov]

Kristov,

The things I mention in post #138 are exactly the same as trying to grind PP. In PP you grind for a power that is opposed by other powers, in the rest of the game, you grind for a minor faction that is opposed by other minor factions (player groups included).

For example, in PP you transfer leaflets from A to B to support your power. In the game, you transfer cargo, sometimes in conjunction with a mission, from A to B to support your minor faction. The PVE mechanic is identical to each other and independent of Mode. Sandro's reasoning is that Open folks have it harder due to potential interactions with other people, so a buff is needed. You could say the EXACT same thing for the list of things in #138...you could bypass any potential trouble from other commanders from a rival minor faction by going solo/group, so Open needs a buff. Do you get it now?

And working the BGS is support your minor faction is a pvp mechanic as well, as often opposing faction is a player group.

And if you would care to actually read the OP, you would see the thread is not to cause fear. But believe whatever you want, you seem to do that regardless of facts.

Wrong on all counts. The BGS is influenced by player actions, but it's also influenced by NPCs, same with bounty hunting, res/cz farming, etc, the PvE mechanics include the NPC interaction and influence.

PP doesn't use NPC influence, it's players, that's it, it's a player vs player mechanic from the ground up. PLEASE NOTE: I said player vs player, NOT PvP, there is a difference here, as the first is simply pitting the players against other players which can be done without direct conflict, while the latter is purely direct conflict between players. WE, the players, determine the direction of all changes in PP, that's it, it's player vs player mechanics, the only such directed mechanic in the game as it happen.

Gluttony, man, *shakes head* +1 and I owe you another few on top of that. Well said man, well said.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Yeah, so the decision is made - we could close this discussion. When the modes are not handled equally, the game will die.

Already said this and will say it again, within the scope of competitive mechanic, nothing is bad about this change. Outside of competitive mechanic, I'd fight against this sort of bonus due to the lack of competitive context.