Ingame merit leaderboard against 5c

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

I get burned out by Power Play right around the 3rd Wednesday evening. Hauling whatever power garbage to where ever it's needed gets tedious. I have no interest in shooting at other players, that's even more boring, and shooting mindless NPC's is only slightly less boring. The incredibly shallow, pointless nature of the extremely limited actual options of what to do and how to engage in Power Play is largely what make the entire system a cocktail-napkin idea for a bad placeholder. In the scope of pure mechanics - that is, things the game engine has been shown that it CAN do, the capacity to support a "spy-layer", along with several more layers of actual game play is already there. The problem is, and this part is aimed @Rubbernuke as well: There is NO HIGH LEVEL play in Power Play at all.

What do I mean here? Let me ask this: As a Rank 5, Self-Appointed Leader of Zemina Torval, with an entire reddit of my own, two discords, a streaming video service and a daily podcast, I want to forge an alliance with Denton Patreus, so that our powers can both grow together, conspire together, share our resources, and support each other. How do I go about doing that? What instructions do I issue out to my little player minions to carry this out? Oh, that's right. I'm not a leader of anything. I have no power to wield except my forum rantings, can't eject anyone from "my" power, or actually DO anything. Nor can I actually cause such an alliance to form, as none of these actual Power leaders are "real" - they don't even have an in-game NPC. They're nothing more than a GalNet headline and have no actual influence over anything at all.

Why? Because the entire design of Power Play is a pss poor knockoff of a bad imitation of a cheap Chinese version of the Axis and Allies board game, with even fewer options to actually DO anything, and a dire indicator of how badly the ENITRE system needs to be scrapped and rewritten from the ground up, starting with how one joins a Power in the first place - aka, you don't. You are invited to a Power, by a Power NPC, because you've proven yourself a valuable ally. You've worked for the cause, worked against the enemy, and proven you can be trusted - to some extent.

If you're Fortifying a System, there should be an indication of this in that system - an increased presence - a fleet of ships at the boarder, ready to engage and drive out the enemy (opposed factions). Of course, your Power's Fleet resources should also be limited - spread yourself too thin, you can't mount an offensive, and your "walls" will be filled with holes.

Come into a Hostile power system, expect to be engaged (interdicted) regularly by skilled NPC's and skilled Players (or not so skilled players who count on the NPC's to weaken you first). Expect stations to turn you way (Docking Request Denied - "We don't want you Kumo scum stinking up our station."

And for those of us who like even more complex plots of truly Machiavellian proportions, and tactics that make Sun Tsu look like a rank amateur, ensuring the murky shadows of cloak-and-dagger play also need to be maintained. But again, this means completely scrapping and reworking the entire Power Play system into something that is actually thought out, and most importantly - not Player Dominated. "You" will never be Yuri Grom, Arissa Lavingy-Duval, or Zachary Hudson. "You" will never receive a communique from any of them, directly or otherwise. But you might be their "Best (wo)man for the job...", whatever that job might be.

The problem, the real problem, is that THIS is a completely stand-alone, different game that what Elite is, and trying to strap on this level of play is very likely far beyond what Elite and the Cobra Engine are really capable of, which is a shame, because that's the level of Power Play I would be interested in engaging in - something that DOES allow groups of players, working together, to really reshape the galaxy, not just move meaningless lines around on a map and tell people how great we are.

Yeah. You never did real powerplay.

We all know the flaws of it. I think it´s totally possible to repair PP, all the suggestions and ideas are here. Nobody was ever asking for more 5C btw. But this was already 1 or 2 years ago, can´t remember exactly. Maybe 3? PP is dying a slow death since then and it´s a shame.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

They were asked, you already quoted them, but instead of responding you chose to clutch your pearls and claim he was too rude to engage with. Please.

Also, the topic is 5C, not whether PP in itself is engaging or not. I certainly haven't claimed it is.

If you're referring to:

How is that any good for the game?

How is it not and what else is there to actually do? Not to mention, Expansion is a BGS state, and non-Power Players, which outnumber Power Players by hundreds if not thousands to one, are going to influence the BGS and system states even more than Power Players, and they may very well influence states you don't happen to want.

How demoralising is it to be forced to waste enormous amounts of money for nothing each week?

If you're that easily demoralized, you may want to seek out a spirit guide. Not that it should need mentioned, but shall we count the number of "Credits are so easy to make" and "Look at my 2 billion credit haul of Void Opals" threads out there. So what is all this poor money being wasted on? Perhaps the simple solution here is simply to eliminate fast tracking globally. You can't do it, they can't do it, everyone is stuck waiting for their next allotment of goods. Most of your problems have just been solved.

So there, despite these sounding almost completely rhetorical, the only two sentences ending with question marks have been responded to directly.

Yeah. You never did real powerplay.

Nor did I ever claim to - but I have participated in as much of a beneficial way as I could to any Power I've pledged. So it's been as "real" to me as anything else in the game. I've also read quite a bit on the matter, studied the mechanics of it, heard Rubber's rantings, read Perse's guide as well as several others, did my own homework, and simply find it far too wanting to invest my efforts into for what little benefit it provides. Player Named Factions have more going for them, and I'm not particularly moved by any of those either, since that's all they are - Player Named. No Faction Tag for your ship, you're barely a sub-contractor on a 1099.

 

[myothershipisacobraiv]

pp activities in solo should not count unless they concur with the activities of open.

and then, they should be reduced benefit. .5 .4 something like that.

everything else same.

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

Nor did I ever claim to

This is what confuses me. You have a lot to say and some strong ideas about a part of ED you never dived into.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

pp activities in solo should not count unless they concur with the activities of open.

and then, they should be reduced benefit. .5 .4 something like that.

everything else same.

I'm going to disagree here. What should be done:

1. Eliminate Fast Tracking - you want to move commodities, you get what you're given, no more, no less.
2. Cap Weekly Merit Earnings to 20,000 per week, per player. That allows you to maintain a Rank 5 standing, if you so choose when Merit Decay kicks in. It also kills efforts of small groups of people to 5C a power into a CC coma, while at the same time still not eliminating it as a legitimate-by-the-written-rules-of-the-game style of play. It still means dedicated players still have to be wary of these activities, and make efforts to counter them. And if bots ever should exist, it pretty much cripples their effectiveness.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

This is what confuses me. You have a lot to say and some strong ideas about a part of ED you never dived into.

I look at it like standing atop a gorgeous cliff of pure, pristine marble, high above a sapphire-blue, crystal clear sea, ready to dive, but realizing that water is only 6 inches deep, and that dive would be the last you ever made. I'll stand here and admire the view of what could be, but I'm smart enough not to plunge in, knowing what waits below.

 

[Ethaidan]

I look at it like standing atop a gorgeous cliff of pure, pristine marble, high above a sapphire-blue, crystal clear sea, ready to dive, but realizing that water is only 6 inches deep, and that dive would be the last you ever made. I'll stand here and admire the view of what could be, but I'm smart enough not to plunge in, knowing what waits below.

Ya, based on your posts in this thread, not as smart as you think you are.

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

I look at it like standing atop a gorgeous cliff of pure, pristine marble, high above a sapphire-blue, crystal clear sea, ready to dive, but realizing that water is only 6 inches deep, and that dive would be the last you ever made. I'll stand here and admire the view of what could be, but I'm smart enough not to plunge in, knowing what waits below.

I can understand you picked cynicism to guard yourself from the obvious frustrations ED will offer to the inconsiderate pilot. Good for you.

The question remains: How to improve PP?

I find there´s a lot more substance in the OP´s suggestion than in all of the many words you wrote over the last two pages. Plus: It´s now a thread about you. Congratulaions.

Nevermind, I can´t sleep either.

 

[Old Duck]

This is what confuses me. You have a lot to say and some strong ideas about a part of ED you never dived into.

I have some strong ideas too, because I would dive into PP if it were different / better. On the other hand, I know this will never be the case, nothing will ever change, PP is doomed, and so I'll just sit on my strong ideas and let the more invested folks slug it out.

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

I have some strong ideas too, because I would dive into PP if it were different / better. On the other hand, I know this will never be the case, nothing will ever change, PP is doomed, and so I'll just sit on my strong ideas and let the more invested folks slug it out.

I tolerate and respect your life choices.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

I can understand you picked cynicism to guard yourself from the obvious frustrations ED will offer to the inconsiderate pilot. Good for you.

The question remains: How to improve PP?

I find there´s a lot more substance in the OP´s suggestion than in all of the many words you wrote over the last two pages. Plus: It´s now a thread about you. Congratulaions.

Nevermind, I can´t sleep either.

Call it cynicism if you like. It's just practicality to me. As for improvements....

Ingame merit leaderboard against 5c

I get burned out by Power Play right around the 3rd Wednesday evening. Hauling whatever power garbage to where ever it's needed gets tedious. I have no interest in shooting at other players, that's even more boring, and shooting mindless NPC's is only slightly less boring. The incredibly...

forums.frontier.co.uk

and at the end of https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/ingame-merit-leaderboard-against-5c.526631/post-8088155

Not to mention a rather lengthy post over in Suggestions, well worth a read. I've done this about half a dozen different times now - and like Duck, I'd love to see Power Play evolve into something worthy of being part of Elite. Right now, it's not even close.

Ya, based on your posts in this thread, not as smart as you think you are.

If I valued your opinion at all, that would leave the equivalent of a paper cut on my psyche. As it stands, I don't.

 

[CMDR Nathan Atterlein]

I dunno. Dont they need to put in effort just as well to 5c?

Well, in my eyes, or playstyle, if I want to get something done, I'll do it, while not wanting to hang myself out of boredom. If it would be a draining experience, I'll skip.

You don't 5c because you have to.

Directly attacking or negatively affecting someone ingame is a lot more fun, and is a lot more thrilling than indirectly defending your team with mandatory chores. Personally I'd love to 5c, but knowing how extremely frustrating it is to counter it with the current setup, I'd rather have a good night's sleep. The system needs more layers of content.

 

[Rubbernuke]

My first question would be: Why are these rich idiots so bored?

Who knows? Does it justify abusing a gaping loophole to wreck sometimes years of patient work?

Wasting enormous amounts of money each week sounds a lot to me like a money sink, which a number of people have been begging for quite a long while.

There is wasting it in a fun way (since, like, this is a game) and there is simply burning it for nothing.

I would also point out that, by extolling the damage 5C causes, and in such a spirited manner, is going to tell people out there "hey, if we want to deal a serious blow to these guys, here's how we do it, with minimal efforts".

Its not exactly a secret. 5Cs impact has been known since the first few cycles, which makes for nearly five years.

Which also tells me this has likely been done to every power already, thus they are all permanently handicapped or have been destroyed already - which works out to be zero sum gain all around.

And it has, over and over and over. Having played from the start I've seen it play out each week and how it burns players- but saying its acceptable because everyone has been hit by it does not make it any more valid.

The biggest thing is, none of this is against any of the established rules we all agree to when check the license agreement box and start playing.

Sure, you hate that people do it - I certainly get that, but it isn't prohibited. Botting certainly is, though as I said before, until I see one, I doubt their existence.

Its an exploit that is far too powerful. Every major FD communication re PP is about 5C. PPs only real update was 100% anti 5C. The last proposal was 90% anti 5C. 5C is not intended, if it was, why no mention in the PP instructions? Surely such a cataclysmic weapon should get a mention?

I also pose this question - without knowing what power support, would you discourage someone from leaving your power to 5C a power you oppose, or would you simply reap the benefits of their actions? If you would actually discourage them, then I salute your integrity. If you say nothing and simply reap the benefits, I salute your tactical acumen.

Speaking from my Power (the Kumo) 5C of any kind (BGS, PP) along with evidence of cheating is a bannable and KOS offence. We play fairly and expect the same from others.

Perhaps most importantly here is that I have not, at any time, said or suggested that existing systems shouldn't be changed or improved. In fact, they absolutely should be, however these changes and improvements should not prohibit LEGITIMATE tactics, which include working against a power from inside.

Then there should be legitimate mechanics that make spying actually use skill, rather than just an exploit. It would be far better to have no information about a rivals fortification status on the UI, and have to hack into terminals in a rivals capital for example. This requires playing against your foe directly, and is a positive action.

What should be done is making changes that reduce the individual impact, while still allowing people who want to play "double-agent" to do so,

Double agents should have no place in PP, as the whole feature relies on honesty, in that you honestly want to do the best for your power.

but also allow for others to expose these people when found, and allow for some manner of appropriate punitive action, including ejecting these disruptive influences from a power - though how this could be implemented in a manner that is justifiable and not simply arbitrary is quite a challenge

It is a challenge,because how do you qualify it, since to the game 5C is identical to regular play. Its a design dead end and leads to horrible exploits.

I could very easily and readily see this being used to eject module tourists at the end of their 3rd week, simply to deny someone who hasn't "measured up" to some arbitrary mark held by those with this sort of power. It turns the system into a popularity contest and demeans everyone.

Again, impractical, since 5C players can rack up tens of thousands of merits which would look like a 'good' player. You want less votes and not more- what PP needs is solid game loops that reward positive action, and that the positive action is the vote itself.

I get burned out by Power Play right around the 3rd Wednesday evening. Hauling whatever power garbage to where ever it's needed gets tedious. I have no interest in shooting at other players, that's even more boring, and shooting mindless NPC's is only slightly less boring. The incredibly shallow, pointless nature of the extremely limited actual options of what to do and how to engage in Power Play is largely what make the entire system a cocktail-napkin idea for a bad placeholder. In the scope of pure mechanics - that is, things the game engine has been shown that it CAN do, the capacity to support a "spy-layer", along with several more layers of actual game play is already there. The problem is, and this part is aimed @Rubbernuke as well: There is NO HIGH LEVEL play in Power Play at all.

High level play is there all the time. A recent Kumo operation was a month long BGS flipping exercise (undetected) that lead to a surprise prep and expansion. It dealt a massive blow to Grom. All functioning powers have a plan each week, co-ordinating with allies, keeping the BGS in check, fighting UM and UMing as well. But please, feel free to ignore it.

What do I mean here? Let me ask this: As a Rank 5, Self-Appointed Leader of Zemina Torval, with an entire reddit of my own, two discords, a streaming video service and a daily podcast, I want to forge an alliance with Denton Patreus, so that our powers can both grow together, conspire together, share our resources, and support each other. How do I go about doing that? What instructions do I issue out to my little player minions to carry this out? Oh, that's right. I'm not a leader of anything. I have no power to wield except my forum rantings, can't eject anyone from "my" power, or actually DO anything. Nor can I actually cause such an alliance to form, as none of these actual Power leaders are "real" - they don't even have an in-game NPC. They're nothing more than a GalNet headline and have no actual influence over anything at all.

Quite. Tell that to ZYADA, or FUC, or Mahon players.

If you're Fortifying a System, there should be an indication of this in that system - an increased presence - a fleet of ships at the boarder, ready to engage and drive out the enemy (opposed factions). Of course, your Power's Fleet resources should also be limited - spread yourself too thin, you can't mount an offensive, and your "walls" will be filled with holes.

Come into a Hostile power system, expect to be engaged (interdicted) regularly by skilled NPC's and skilled Players (or not so skilled players who count on the NPC's to weaken you first). Expect stations to turn you way (Docking Request Denied - "We don't want you Kumo scum stinking up our station."

And for those of us who like even more complex plots of truly Machiavellian proportions, and tactics that make Sun Tsu look like a rank amateur, ensuring the murky shadows of cloak-and-dagger play also need to be maintained. But again, this means completely scrapping and reworking the entire Power Play system into something that is actually thought out, and most importantly - not Player Dominated. "You" will never be Yuri Grom, Arissa Lavingy-Duval, or Zachary Hudson. "You" will never receive a communique from any of them, directly or otherwise. But you might be their "Best (wo)man for the job...", whatever that job might be.

I can't argue with that.

The problem, the real problem, is that THIS is a completely stand-alone, different game that what Elite is, and trying to strap on this level of play is very likely far beyond what Elite and the Cobra Engine are really capable of, which is a shame, because that's the level of Power Play I would be interested in engaging in - something that DOES allow groups of players, working together, to really reshape the galaxy, not just move meaningless lines around on a map and tell people how great we are.

Its not though. Powerplay has and had the potential to be the proper end game mode where high end ships and players engage at a level that uses their assets. It just takes volition from FD, who seem to be content with the BGS.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Not to mention, Expansion is a BGS state, and non-Power Players, which outnumber Power Players by hundreds if not thousands to one, are going to influence the BGS and system states even more than Power Players, and they may very well influence states you don't happen to want.

Psst! Powers expand as well. You have combat expansions, or hauling expansions. Its PREPPHASE > EXPANSION PHASE | FORITFY.

If you're that easily demoralized, you may want to seek out a spirit guide.

Seeing your hard done over a period of months / years undone, or having yet another haul race to outspend a 5C prep, beg for votes as a console account spams almost infinite votes again does make you fed up. But please, the snark is superficially amusing.

Not that it should need mentioned, but shall we count the number of "Credits are so easy to make" and "Look at my 2 billion credit haul of Void Opals" threads out there. So what is all this poor money being wasted on? Perhaps the simple solution here is simply to eliminate fast tracking globally. You can't do it, they can't do it, everyone is stuck waiting for their next allotment of goods. Most of your problems have just been solved.

And how does that imapct on prep races, or fighting uncapped UM if FD ever do it?

Nor did I ever claim to - but I have participated in as much of a beneficial way as I could to any Power I've pledged. So it's been as "real" to me as anything else in the game. I've also read quite a bit on the matter, studied the mechanics of it, heard Rubber's rantings, read Perse's guide as well as several others, did my own homework, and simply find it far too wanting to invest my efforts into for what little benefit it provides. Player Named Factions have more going for them, and I'm not particularly moved by any of those either, since that's all they are - Player Named. No Faction Tag for your ship, you're barely a sub-contractor on a 1099.

None of which justifies 5C.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Psst! Powers expand as well. You have combat expansions, or hauling expansions. Its PREPPHASE > EXPANSION PHASE | FORITFY.



Seeing your hard done over a period of months / years undone, or having yet another haul race to outspend a 5C prep, beg for votes as a console account spams almost infinite votes again does make you fed up. But please, the snark is superficially amusing.



And how does that imapct on prep races, or fighting uncapped UM if FD ever do it?



None of which justifies 5C.

I still don't see what's bad about 5c. Is it a disparity of effort?

 

[CMDR Nathan Atterlein]

I still don't see what's bad about 5c. Is it a disparity of effort?

Well, in my eyes, or playstyle, if I want to get something done, I'll do it, while not wanting to hang myself out of boredom. If it would be a draining experience, I'll skip.

You don't 5c because you have to.

Directly attacking or negatively affecting someone ingame is a lot more fun, and is a lot more thrilling than indirectly defending your team with mandatory chores. Personally I'd love to 5c, but knowing how extremely frustrating it is to counter it with the current setup, I'd rather have a good night's sleep. The system needs more layers of content.

In case you missed it.

Oh, and I'd like to add that right now, there is no good alternative to win other than outdoing 5c. You can't catch the responsible commanders en route, you just grind to mitigate it. That shucks.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

In case you missed it.

Oh, and I'd like to add that right now, there is no good alternative to win other than outdoing 5c. You can't catch the responsible commanders en route, you just grind to mitigate it. That shucks.

I didn't miss it. Apart from the 'needs more content' I still didnt see anything wrong. Well, you might not like 5c and its implications but that's taste. If my 1h actions in 5c would require you to do 5 h to counter it I'd see a problem.

 

[CMDR Nathan Atterlein]

I didn't miss it. Apart from the 'needs more content' I still didnt see anything wrong. Well, you might not like 5c and its implications but that's taste. If my 1h actions in 5c would require you to do 5 h to counter it I'd see a problem.

Well, if powerplay dying because of unfun mechanics is not considered a problem, I'm not sure what is.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Well, if powerplay dying because of unfun mechanics is not considered a problem, I'm not sure what is.

Rep decay is worse.

 

[Aashenfox]

Anyone supporting 5C activity in ED is a problem player. Worse than griefers and gankers, cos at least they have to play in open. If you want to be that guy, exploiting broken mechanics to ruin other people's effort, be my guest, and ideally state it publicly, so I can add you to our squadron's KoS list. We don't even powerplay, but we hate cheats and that's what 5C in PP essentially is, as it's taking advantage of an unintended consequence of an action that wasn't thought through properly when designed, it's not 'intended gameplay'. Just like menu logging to avoid death. While not against the ToS it's a proper jerk move. Doing 5C is equivalently trollish.

Also, lol at the people trying to justify what they're saying when they don't even understand how pp works. Mercy.