I'm pretty sure you have a point there, I've no clue what that is.
Either way, more ways to combat saboteurs would only help PP.
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Ingame merit leaderboard against 5c
- Thread starter CMDR Nathan Atterlein
- Start date
I'm pretty sure you have a point there, I've no clue what that is.
Either way, more ways to combat saboteurs would only help PP.
5C comes in many forms, some intentional, some not.
At the beginning when merit totals were low and the relative value of each merit was high, '5C' for many was people dumping merits in the closest system. Since everywhere was available to expand into, 5C as we know it today was muted.
Some 5C are beginners not knowing the rules, and doing what they guess is right. I once had such a situation in Utopia- I flew out and came across the guy and introduced our Reddit to him. He then saw there were coordinated groups, joined and went along with the plans.
Some 5C could (in theory) be other large groups trying to control events since powers are open to everyone. However this has never come to pass with the powers I've been with because you can see a 1:1 relationship with your plan and activity as the week goes on. Aisling might be the outlier in that, as its had lots of large groups squabbling within it (from my viewpoint anyway).
Late phase 5C is more serious, down to the game developing but PP remaining static. The relative value of merits has fallen in lock step with the value of credits. Now you can AFK hundreds of thousands of merits, spend billions in fast tracking. This late phase stuff is easy to do with no consequences, and hard to defend against. The feature itself puts implicit trust in each commander to do the right thing- it can't tell between a genuine move (such as a profitable expansion or a weaponaised expansion) or one which is purely malicious.
Sandros proposal included weighting good expansions- in essence exponentially increasing the effort required to put a poor expansion into play.
It was when the effort to get merits was greater. Now gaining merits (even through fast tracking) is easy. Engineered ships and evolved tactics can harvest ranks 1-4 in an hour of play. R5 is an hours VO mining.
On one Kumo attack I made 30,000 in one week UMing and I was the lowest contributor. Thats 3 x Rank 5.
To me it seems as if FDev didn't plan powerplay as something to be played in very organized manner, instead there just are certain set of rules and then stuff happens, a bit like planet generation. Kind of a democratic and automated process. Another exercise in procedural generation. Therefore there are no "bad players", no leaders, and no knowledge of discord groups or reddit pages are required participate, just do whatever. Of course this is not quite true, as little group effort is much more efficient compared to huge number of independent random actions. I wonder how the system would function if there was significantly higher number of players. What if a group broke into several factions with different goals. Anyway, the system would be much more sensible if last minute merit bombing was restricted, and much more fun if it was dedicated to open mode.
FD kind of realised that decentralised approach better with the BGS imo. But I do think you are correct that FD anticipated much greater numbers in PP to have a better signal to noise ratio.
It would be far better if it wasn't tied to spammable items rather than gameplay activities. Even then it'd be exploited, but the last minute bombing wouldn't be so decisive.
Isn't that the same kind of argument more than a few people have made about Engineering too, that's it's a broken mechanic?
But "witchhunting" is, which is what a KoS list is, and this sort of posturing is what drives people to do things like this, especially in other modes. Making bad situations worse is always a great solution.
Also, lol at the people trying to justify what they're saying when they don't even understand how pp works. Mercy.
The two biggest parts of this problem are:
1. The manner in which one joins to participate in Power Play. The simple "Pick a Power and Pledge" ensures people are not going to take it seriously. As with all things, with minimal effort come maximum issues. There are far more reasons not to care than to care.
2. The fact that the outcome of any given cycle, or every given cycle from day one has no meaningful consequence, nor does anyone's actions. Some of the "hotbed" systems have been in "War" or "Civil War" states for so long they make the old 17 Draconis look like Switzerland. The civilian populace, had they a single IQ point, would have fled these systems long ago, leaving them abandoned simply because life should be intolerable. They don't. With no differences between Federal, Imperial, Allied or Independent space, what reason would anyone have to care who's in charge? Even a minor difference, like "Goods and services cost 10% more in Imperial Space, 10% less in Allied Space, vary from hour to hour in Independent space, and have higher availability in Federal space" would at least be SOME kind of difference. As it stands though, there is none, so there's no incentive. You can pretend all you like, and that's fine if it entertains you, but you can't pretend for someone else. And this complete lack of any kind of consequence really enforces the meaninglessness of the Powers.
If these two things alone are not enough, then let's mix a few other things.
"Leadership" - @Rubbernuke You claim to be the leader of whatever power you support. Couldn't anyone simply step up with a pretty web page, a bit of social acumen, and a good pitch and simply take that leadership away? You've claimed leadership, but there's nothing you could actually do to stop this sort of coupe from happening. I'm positive this was by-design, since Elite was never intended to be a "Game of Personalities", or allow any of us to lord over anyone else. I've done my own fair share of leading in other games as well, so I know first hand what a pain in the a.. ahh... it can be, how much work and effort can be poured into it trying to organize a bunch of internet idiots to do a single, simple things and keep it coherent. It's actually fairly rare for someone to want to step up and take the reigns because most people also know it's a fairly thankless job that starts to feel more like a job and less like any kind of fun. It's also worse here because as a "Leader" what can you actually do about disruptive influences, especially if they take their disruptions to, say, their own private group to which none of you or yours are invited? Well, the answer is "not a gods-damned thing". Telling others to "shoot on sight" does no good, as you can never see them. You can't come here and publicly blast them, as that's not allowed. You can post about it elsewhere, but who's really going to see it? In the end, "you" (not a personal "you", but anyone claiming leadership) is a toothless old wolf on a short chain.
"Out Of Game, Out Of Mind" - In game organization is still rather lacking. It was bolstered recently with the addition of Squadrons, as this gives some better organization, but I have to really wonder how well this has been utilized. Perhaps a bit better by some, not at all by others, and in the end, there's still no real way to effectively communicate with large numbers of other players at the same time without having to resort to some kind of out-of-game device, be it a chat service like Discord, these forums or some other site, and frankly this is pretty lousy. When I'm playing the game I don't have time to hop out to somewhere else. I've tried it, and it just doesn't work well. Oh, how have I tried it? I've joined various discords for the various powers I've toured. @Rubbernuke - I've never actually asked, but what power do you hold so dear? You needn't answer here, I just wonder if we've crossed paths during my tour of powers. If so, then I've been in your discord most likely. Thing is, it pretty much sucks to have to use external mechanisms. I'd much rather you sent me an in-game message I can see right there than try to chat at me in some other location.. And I'd even much more prefer an in-game audio com than have to read your text. Edit: Just noticed your responses in #61 - you're a Kumo, so no, I haven't toured there, no use for cytoscramblers.
I'm sure I'm not alone here though - if it's not in the game, it's not in my thought process, and I miss it.
Re: 1. You've hit the nail on the head as to the technical cause, so surely you agree with me that it can't be intended for a power to switch sides strategically in order to screw up the voting and subsequent expansions of another power. Have you lived this? Do you know how much work it is to undo a 5C attack? As I said we don't pp, but we are a Fed squad, so when winters was 5Ced, we helped. It would have been nobody's chosen gameplay, it was pure damage limitation caused by what are effectively cheats. There is nothing you can say that will improve my opinion of people using that kind of broken game mechanics. I exploit HGEs, sometimes, I feel that's justifiable, I exploit the Jameson cobra, sometimes, I feel that's justifiable too. I don't use healing weapons, I don't kill innocent commanders for the lulz, I never run crimes on, I never combat or menu log, and I never 5C. That's just who I am and I will always feel above another player willing to stoop to those depths to beat me, that in itself is a victory.
Tell me I'm wrong, but I suspect this, more than anything else, is somewhere between the 90 and 99th percentage of the problem. Wasn't a problem in the beginning, didn't become a problem for a while, until it became an enormous problem.
Conversely:
Here's a different kind of problem - you say these beginners "don't know the rules", but there really are no rules, except for what someone else decides those rules should be. The game itself imposes very little in the way of rules as to what we can and can't do within a power. The most obvious is firing on or destroying ships pledged to the same power, including NPC's (ran into this all of once when working for Zemina - some of the NPC's decided I was a good target and perished for their mistake. I was scolded for my treachery, and I'm positive none of the NPC's wold have been - but that's another story entirely).
I also do not understand the fascination with reddit. Personally, I simply won't use it. There's nothing I like about it, from the design to a vast majority of the audience there, and I've never made a secret about my disgust with that site. But maybe I'm missing something. Maybe there is some redeeming value that is only revealed after delving deeply into it. You'll have to clue me in here.
However... I will commend your offering guidance and direction to the new. It's something largely lacking in Elite. A few tutorial scenarios, and here you go, here's the galaxy. Good luck and don't let the door hit you where your maker split you is how the game begins, leaving people scratching their heads at what they're supposed to do.
And if the day ever comes that I decide to pick up some Cytoscramblers, I'm sure you'll find I'm quite easy to get along with, and more than glad to spend my time earning my Merits hauling materials to stave off 5C efforts elsewhere, or fortifying locations deemed necessary.
But to the bigger issue - the lack of development to date - this is going to be a tough one to swallow, as I've noted, the entirety of the system needs built from the ground up, and this is going to mean two big things:
1. It's Going to Take Time. This could very well be one of those Not-a-Season-4 type "We need an entire year to do this, and the only update you'll get will be a new color of Arx" type updates. It's too hard to judge yet if the wait will be worth it, as far as the new content goes, since we don't have it yet.
2. Change means Change. It's going to mean throwing out all of the Old. All the Old Ways, all the Old schemes, methods, mechanics, "rules", all of it. Everyone will be relearning the systems, and that's going to cause a lot of pssing and moaning and "all my hard working...." but in the end it will be for the best. We're living in a house so infested with termites that even the termites have termites and are complaining, so burning it to the ground, digging up the ground it once stood on, hauling all away to be dumped into the ocean, bringing in fresh fill dirt and rebuilding really is ultimately for the best for everyone.
We've seen what works, what doesn't and what needs to be - so that just leaves getting the doing done.
Because they are rich and idiots.
Same thing that caused the first splurge of griefers back at launch, those who'd already exploited as much cash as they'd ever need got to keep it with the cancelled wipe.
No, I am not French. Once I pick a side, I stay with it or walk away entirely.
Here's what I do know - my last involvement with a power, any power, was right around 63 weeks ago, when I joined with Asiling Duval to get my hands on a few Prismatic Shields. I have no interest in the politics, don't care if Slavery is legal or not, it's just one more type of cargo to me. If I'm paid to deliver slaves, they get delivered. If I'm paid to liberate slaves, they get liberated. So I jumped through the little hoops, joined the discord, which I loathe, said "Hi, I'm here, here's my evidence that I'm pledged to you, where do you need me and my huge cargo bay to haul your whatever?" I was given some locations that were being targeted by Undermining, and hauled and hauled and hauled until the cycle was over, staved off Undermining efforts in the designated locations, bought want I wanted at the time, set off to have my new shields engineered and installed where I wanted them, got drawn into some other interests out in Independent space, considered leaving to join up with Li Yong Rui, then realized I still had half a dozen unengineered Pack Hounds from my time there, busied myself with some research, and got ready to take off for the rim of the galaxy when 3.3 dropped. When 3.3 went live, I left the bubble and haven't been back since.
So how much "work" was it? I couldn't tell you. I didn't count the trips, I just did what I was told needed to be done. That's just want I do. Did it help? I'm sure it did. Was it appreciated? I think someone said "Hey, nice work there, those systems will hold." but I didn't even see the message for like a week after, because I'm not sitting around looking at web chat.
And that's really all the involvement I've ever really wanted - which is perfectly within the rules of the game. I'm not working against my pledged power, not getting in anyone's way who has designs on dominating the galaxy, just do my part and move on. I feel almost certain this was a Frontier Intended Play Style, and that Life-Long Die-Hard Power Playing was not, but is certainly not discouraged.
With Powerplay its not some grand baton passing event. In the beginning the official forums here shunned Powerplay,and lacking a place for ourselves people opened Reddits for each Power. From here people started to gather, and form groups that endure to this day. I took over from Cadoc who left after cycle 7 or 8. From then on I did the cycle reports, and slowly gravitated to a small group who planned ongoing strategies. This was great, but took a great deal of time being diplomat sorting out problems, staring at spreadsheets to the point I became burnt out after Utopia flipped 100% of its bubbles. I then had a rest and joined the Kumo, where I thankfully don't lead but have a lot of accumulated knowledge that is useful.That and I don't care about killing.
You are right that someone could form rival groups: classically Aisling has had such problems with various groups claiming leadership due to her popularity. Recently Torval had rival groups fighting over it after she imploded. But, as PP has gone on these groups are seen as the de facto by the majority that play. If the populations were higher, then that might change. But as it stands thats how t is.
Its because as PP has remained static, the rest of the game has suffered power creep (if you excuse the pun).
There are rules- Powerplay works in one way, and FD in its wisdom did not include easy access to proper PP instructions. Its not even in the Pilots Handbook.
I answered this in my last reply: Reddit pages were set up because FD Forums had no places for us. These days Reddit is largely superseded by Discords due to its real time nature.
And if you respect the rules and play in a way that benefits the feature, I'll give you a big hug and a mug of tea. Even if people just want modules, powers are more than happy to welcome them for the short time they'll be about.
And this is why recently I use Sandros proposal as a yardstick to at least ground ideas that I have, since FD indicated they were broadly happy with most of the changes. I want a total rebuild, but unless FD let the groups know then by the time it appears those who would use it the most would have gone. Its why I'm here all the time, to at least try and keep prodding FD.
Which begs the real question: which is more damaging to a power play group and the power itself - some 5C work going on, or in-fighting by those claiming to be the "de facto" authority? And hand in hand with that, how often might 5C work be the direct result of this internal conflict?
Great case-in-point: long ago, in another life, in another game, I was a member of a rather well-established and respected group who often worked with that game's Guides (company staff members who conducted various events). We were the keepers of order and frequently took up arms to stave off bands of wandering player-killers who would come to these events to play "How Many Clueless Newbies Can We Headshot" or "How badly can we foul up this event", which there were regular announcements made that these guided events were not to be used for PvP target practice and those identified as disrupting the event would receive punishment ranging from temporary to permanent bans. Despite this being a Real Cash Economy game, and those being permanently banned facing losses into the thousands of dollars, this did not stop "bad people" from doing "bad things".
Things were find and dandy like this for quite some time, at least two years, until our group's leader and primary organizer and our second-in-command, his live-in girlfriend, got into a real-world implosion which resulted in not just their no-longer-living-together status, but created a rift in the group. Some siding with him, some siding with her, and a whole bunch of us going "we're not taking a side here, we just want our weekly patrol routes and allotments."
Over the course of the next two weeks, years of work was rent asunder, the group fragmented, split, fragmented further, and some open hostilities broke out between the fragments - the "You Know Picking Up an Ex From the Airport When Their Car was Stolen is the Same Thing as Cheating" vs. "The Being A Good Human Being Also Means Being a Good Human Doing" and the "Being A Passenger in a Car is Not Being a Passenger in a Bed" sects. The rest of us tried to pick up the pieces and play a frelling game to forget our our analog lives for a few hours a night. It all ended badly.
Two weeks later, no one was speaking to anyone, though random shots being fired had stopped. In total, the group was out around $52,000 in actual assets, our Guide contacts had stopped making use of us, and simply brought on additional staff for their events. A couple months later, I found something else to occupy my time, and cashed out. All said, I think I made like $20 off my investment.
I'm good on unwashed pirate-type hugs, but I'm down with a mug of tea. As I've stated, I follow the "Whoever hires me, hires all of me." creed, and have always made sure not to spend my efforts to the detriment of whomever I'm working for - even if I know I'll be working for someone opposing them next week. To me, it's just good form.
For the sake of clarity, got a link to that proposal? Or can you throw in the body of it here? I can't be the only one who doesn't know it by heart.
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Its one thing having two groups fighting to expand good systems, its another to have the other group prep your worst system, then fortify everything to prevent you turmoilling to prevent that system being expanded.
Like I said, Powerplay looks complex, but in reality it works in a straightforward way. Its easy to deduce the intent from what people prepare and want to expand.
Profitable systems or near profitables are self explanatory.
PMFs that want a certain PP bonus regardless of CC damage
Weaponized expansions: where a power has lots of CC, it sacrifices CC in a bad prep to hurt a rivals CC via overlaps.
5C: deliberately expanding high CC systems close to a capital. Once expanded these can't be shifted ever again.
RP: some systems are expanded as RP. Utopia expanded Takarura, Maia, Peregrina. These high CC systems are far away and a challenge to expand. But, if your power has lots of CC it can be sunk here and these systems are the first to go making them ideal.
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This is SO much better now that we're not d-slapping each other in the face - thank you. As I started reading through that proposal, the very first thought that came to mind was "How about a means to dump a crap system, either through direct action or a vote?" A few lines down I saw:
Vote to withdraw from system
• Each cycle players can vote on the 5 least profitable systems, to withdraw or support
• At the end of a cycle if a system has more withdraw votes than support votes it is removed from the power’s control
• Voting requires minimum, rolling time spent pledged and active for a power, somewhere into rank 2
Reasoning: currently there is no way to lose a bad control system other than hoping or colluding with opposing powers that it will end up being forced into turmoil. We think this vote is a legible and relatively safe way of allowing powers to shed chaff, as only systems that at a base level would be unprofitable would be eligible for withdrawal.
I know, you've said you don't much like voting, but I don't know of any other way to represent the People of Power Play when it comes to decisions that affect power play in such a manner as What Systems Do We Want to Control and What Systems Do We Want To Go Away.
The only other thing I can think to do, is mentioned here:
Missions give Powerplay successes
• Missions for factions in a system that share a power’s superpower award a number of Powerplay successes when completed
• The mission type determines how many successes are given
• Successes can be applied to expansion, opposition, fortification and undermining
Reasoning: one of the complaints of Powerplay is the limited actions available to support your power. We think that liking, in a very simple manner, missions for aligned factions and Powerplay successes allows Commanders increased variety in an efficient manner. The idea is not to replace the standard Powerplay activities, but to compliment them.
In this case, Missions designed to break away from a System, encourage that System to go away on its own, or otherwise Severe Ties with said system.
The only other thing I can think of also segues into my next thought, but shedding unwanted systems by BGS missions would be the only viable alternative to a vote.
BGS Missions/Power Play Missions specifically designed to increase the CC output of a system would also be of great benefit. There would have to be a cap to how much additional CC could be generated this way, and this bonus should decay from cycle to cycle, but using BGS missions to improve a system both fits with the overall theme and would add tremendously to Power Play on the whole. For example, as a Kumo, your "theme" is one of Piracy. Liberate Goods missions and Black Market Sales in a system should be able to drive up the CC produced by that system. The benefits of this should be obvious, but beyond just the increased CC revenue, this would allow powers that get stuck with turd systems to, by some effort, polish those turds. So if System X is ultimately costing CC, but through effort could be raised to a point that it actually generated even +1 CC, it becomes a well polished turd.
The added benefit here would be that this would, or could if the efforts were made, turn 5C work against the 5C action, by making a an unprofitable system profitable.
My thoughts there.
Superficially CC generating missions would be good, but, the problem with PP in general is that defence is easy, and conventional attack is too difficult. It would make some powers immune and would lead to an entrenched stasis.
The measures Sandro suggested should work, as long as there is some check to systems voted out. As you know I'm not for voting, I prefer the BGS approach of 'voting' being an action- but its whats been tabled and at this point anything is better than the status quo.
What will happen on week 2 of the new PP era (with those rules) is powers dumping the inner shell of unprofitables, leading to a massive boost in CC. With your idea and consolidation defence bonuses it would lead to a glut of CC that would make nearly every power immune to attack.
Instead, what is needed is more instability and uncertainty (as characterised by the uncapped mega UM idea). Its why I'm so keen with Open PP (in whole or in part as I suggested in my last proposal) because it makes deliveries of fort materials much less certain, leading to large powers having thinner and more vulnerable supply lines (mainly as NPCs are not well suited to mounting a dynamic defence in PPs current design).
Open also has a mild anti 5C role- as I mentioned earlier quite often misguided souls can be brought in if you go out and chat to them. It also means that you can also destroy the individual too, or at least have a chance to see who it is. I get that P2P and router fiddling / certain network issues make this <100% effective, but its an extra layer over more targetted measures.
One forgotten gameplay facet was of "Freedom Fighters"- a way for PMFs to boot Powers out. Along with the above you could have it that a system thats unfortified or UMed fully three weeks in a row automatically drops. This would be interesting as non pledged in Open could directly affect fortification to 'cut them off' by causing trouble in the capital. But thats a random idea- but its one where no voting takes place and players have to oppose directly (i.e. play the game) to achieve it.
I will always oppose any "Exclusive Mode" for any avenue of Elite, as there are plenty of reasons for people to play in Other Than Open beyond simply wanting to hide themselves and their actions away. I play in PG's because I find the performance of Open play to render the game all but playable, especially in extremely busy systems. I'd rather play anything else then play where my ship is extracted from a station and deposited into space for no other reason than people trying to play on worse-than-dialup connections. P2PFTW.
The Glut of CC could be mitigated by caps on the amount of CC a system could generate. For the sake of discussion a 10 CC system that, due to its location, is serving your power as a -2 CC system could be brought to a maximum of, let's say a +3 CC system, but this should require an immense amount of effort, and may not happen within a single cycle. Perhaps, through effort, that system is brought to break-even at the end of the cycle. At the start of the next cycle, it drops automatically to -1 CC, and by the end of the cycle, could be brought up to +2 CC again, through great action. The following cycle, it drops again to +1, but could be maxed out to +3 by the end of the cycle again.
And to counter-balance this, it should also be possible to, through similar acts, decrease the CC value of a rival power's systems though actions. Blowing up Security ships and committing acts of piracy in an otherwise lawful system controlled by a rival should lower that CC threshold as well. Think of this as "Live Action Fortifying/Undermining".
And I never even hinted any of this would be easy - it may take the better part of a year or more to really reshape Power Play into something that is engaging, interesting, and most importantly, available to all players, in all modes. Not all PvP activity needs to be or has to be a face-to-face exchange of weapons fire. In fact, more dialog-based PvP - "Hey, if you don't quit bounty hunting in our space, we're going to come over into your and raise hell, and there are more of us than there are of you." can go a lot further than "U Sux, I blowed ur space trux up." ever can.
If NPCs were lethal enough to actually threaten players then great, it all comes down to FD and how much they are willing to do. My second from last proposal floated the idea of having NPC squads in escalating sizes, engineering and strength come after you- in that, the more you did the harder it gets. This would invert PvP where you then must form wings / squads to keep on working as the challenge escalates beyond a G5 engineered vessel surviving.
If the consolidation bonus was removed and this in its place it would be great. But for me it would be one or the other, not both.
The proposal would limit BGS actions to control systems- you could I suppose insert a PP only state onto both the sec and happiness sliders- so if you split PP NPCs into freight / sec that might work in the context of your idea. Whack enough sec ships and you get your CC drop, and kill freight for 'normal' UM. The CC drop would be automatically reversible if you don't keep it going, but is independent of UM.
FD need to actually sit down and plan out what Powerplay is and how it fits into the game. The reason why I get so agitated is because FD threw 11 communities under the bus and continue to ignore them- if FD came up with a multifaceted end game that was properly considered across modes with no 5C people would love it. However, what we have been given shows the limit of that scope, and right about now its about keeping the whole thing alive enough so that it goes above FDs player usage threshold so they consider it for future updates again. FD really need to reach out and ask PP players about what might come, first to keep them from quitting,and secondly to ensure no massive 5C loopholes can ever be overlooked.
I can certainly endorse this!
Like said, not easy, and lots and lots and lots of work to be done, but I think the spirit of this could be integrated into something everyone can enjoy.
Not so sure there - I might need to process on my phrasing here a little to make the idea clear, but you're pretty close with the PP NPC's portion. Give me a little time here.
Though I don't think this is just limited to Power Play - this seems to be a theme throughout Elite.
Not so sure they threw anybody under the bus. More like pushed people into the road where a bus has yet to be scheduled to run.