Proposal Discussion Kill Warrant Scanner Feedback

[Hessfire]

Hello Commanders!

We've taken a step back and revaluated what we want the Kill Warrant Scanner to achieve, as well as look at how it fits in with the bigger picture of the update crime system. Part of the issue we run into with the KWS is how it interacts with Interstellar bounties. We've decided to more clearly delineate the roles of these to features:

• The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.
• The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdiction’s superpower.
• The KWS removes any reputation loss from destroying wanted ships, unless the wanted ship belongs to a criminal faction.

With this suite of rules, we can see that the Kill Warrant scanner becomes a clearly defined tool. It communicates with all security channels within the system, allowing Commanders to fully exploit bounty hunting opportunities where they are.

This allows the Kill Warrant scanner to be effective in gaining reputation, tactically supporting factions and of course, increasing profits (we'd be looking at making sure the right levels of crime are linked to factions in the system). It also means that bounty hunters can continue to work in anarchies.

Whilst it does lose some power being limited to the system where it is being used, we've offset this by allowing the Kill Warrant scanner to legitimise attack when dealing with bounties associated with a superpower. We've also made it more robust in protecting the bounty hunter's reputation when working a system.

This also allows Interstellar bounties to remain relevant:

• Interstellar Bounties provide a license to kill in all associated jurisdictions.
• Interstellar bounties are packed up for the criminal, unpacked for the bounty hunter.

Interstellar bounties have a specific role - to make criminals legal targets in every associated jurisdiction. Basically, once you have an Interstellar bounty for a superpower (such as the Federation), all bounties from Federal aligned factions will be visible - and legally claimable - to anyone performing a basic scan on you whilst in a Federal aligned jurisdiction. Furthermore, the bounty hunter still retains the ability to claim or avoid individual bounties within an Interstellar bounty, allowing them to interact with the background simulation as before.

These rules also mitigate one of our bugbears: superpowers honouring each others bounties. Whilst this can happen at a local level using the Kill Warrant scanner, such bounties are local bounties connected with the faction rather than the superpower.

Once a bounty becomes Interstellar, the superpowers get involved, and they take a different approach - only accepting claims within their jurisdiction.

Overall, we're quite happy with this proposal, to the point of looking into making it happen, so feedback is greatly appreciated.

Perfect! I think and feel that this covers all of my bases - others may disagree. The only outstanding questions that remain (again, for myself) are:

1. How is a KWS handled in Lawless/Anarchy systems? I can see the case where a system is Anarchy controlled, but there are Fed/Imp/Allied/Indy factions with a foothold presence. For Lawless (if I am reading right) the situation is that there is NO authority presence with which to interact so a BH might be on their own.
2. Notoriety decay rates have been brought forward here - any further changes beyone the 2 Hours of Game time per 1 point of decay?

Thanks again for your diligence and efforts

 

[raymondo the great]

• The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.
• The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdiction’s superpower.
• The KWS removes any reputation loss from destroying wanted ships, unless the wanted ship belongs to a criminal faction.

Does this mean that it's going to be possible to find NPCs in a system who are wanted by a minor faction not associated with the superpower who you won't be able to kill in that system?

Example scenario:

Random System is Controlled by Beige Cowboy inc which is a Federation aligned faction
Random System has minor faction called NerfHammer which is independently aligned

Will we have NPCs who are wanted by NerfHammer who we can get money for killing if we KWS them but then we will become wanted by the Beige Cowboys for doing it?
Or will all NPCs we scan in a system automatically be wanted by the controlling faction and this would only be a possible scenario in PvP encounters?

 

[V'larr]

Sounds pretty solid to me.

Now might I get an answer regarding whether the combat XP reduction-by-division issue will be changing any time soon...?

 

[Sirius Agent]

Can we expect that bounty hunting will be more integrated with Security Service in systems? Some information about players crimes on the galaxy map, or local information from System Security in ship computer? Not just by using KWS.

 

[Sphinx2k]

This looks fine to me, not that I bother with a KWS anymore after my Vulture RES days..
Now let's move on to the other pressing feedback?

 

[DARGAN]

1. How is a KWS handled in Lawless/Anarchy systems? I can see the case where a system is Anarchy controlled, but there are Fed/Imp/Allied/Indy factions with a foothold presence. For Lawless (if I am reading right) the situation is that there is NO authority presence with which to interact so a BH might be on their own.

Sandro wrote.. The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.

this should mean that this also applies in the anarchy systems locally.. so the bounty of minor factions are revealed.. so if there is no local presence or no population the KWS is inefficient.

we understood the same thing lol, it must be changed or improve too I do not know.

I still think that for galactic criminals exceptionally the discovery of bounty should be galactic.. therefore totally independent of factions, like an international list of wanted criminal.

without recovering all the bounty, maybe only a percentage of each bounty on him, a galactic criminal a lot of bounty on him in principle, being killed will mean being ruined.. and for the hunter, very rich now.

and why not for solo play, I like not forgetting, to add galactic criminal NPC in the anarchic system without population that are particularly dangerous and more profitable.

 

[biohazard15]

Hello Commanders!

We've taken a step back and revaluated what we want the Kill Warrant Scanner to achieve, as well as look at how it fits in with the bigger picture of the update crime system. Part of the issue we run into with the KWS is how it interacts with Interstellar bounties. We've decided to more clearly delineate the roles of these to features:

• The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.
• The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdiction’s superpower.
• The KWS removes any reputation loss from destroying wanted ships, unless the wanted ship belongs to a criminal faction.

With this suite of rules, we can see that the Kill Warrant scanner becomes a clearly defined tool. It communicates with all security channels within the system, allowing Commanders to fully exploit bounty hunting opportunities where they are.

This allows the Kill Warrant scanner to be effective in gaining reputation, tactically supporting factions and of course, increasing profits (we'd be looking at making sure the right levels of crime are linked to factions in the system). It also means that bounty hunters can continue to work in anarchies.

Whilst it does lose some power being limited to the system where it is being used, we've offset this by allowing the Kill Warrant scanner to legitimise attack when dealing with bounties associated with a superpower. We've also made it more robust in protecting the bounty hunter's reputation when working a system.

This also allows Interstellar bounties to remain relevant:

• Interstellar Bounties provide a license to kill in all associated jurisdictions.
• Interstellar bounties are packed up for the criminal, unpacked for the bounty hunter.

Interstellar bounties have a specific role - to make criminals legal targets in every associated jurisdiction. Basically, once you have an Interstellar bounty for a superpower (such as the Federation), all bounties from Federal aligned factions will be visible - and legally claimable - to anyone performing a basic scan on you whilst in a Federal aligned jurisdiction. Furthermore, the bounty hunter still retains the ability to claim or avoid individual bounties within an Interstellar bounty, allowing them to interact with the background simulation as before.

These rules also mitigate one of our bugbears: superpowers honouring each others bounties. Whilst this can happen at a local level using the Kill Warrant scanner, such bounties are local bounties connected with the faction rather than the superpower.

Once a bounty becomes Interstellar, the superpowers get involved, and they take a different approach - only accepting claims within their jurisdiction.

Overall, we're quite happy with this proposal, to the point of looking into making it happen, so feedback is greatly appreciated.

So basically it would work like it does in 2.4, but if you hunt in a system with Federal factions, you will never get Empire or Alliance bounty, and if you hunt in a totally independent system, you will never get any independent bounty?

Sounds fine, but you will need to boost bounty values to compensate for the loss of extra bounties.

 

[wstephenson]

• The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.
• The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdiction’s superpower.

It's common practice, during bounty-hunting CGs, to head to a neighbouring system if the CG system has a poor selection of RES to farm criminals at. If neighbouring systems' bounties are not revealed any more, this practice will no longer be effective. Is this a bad thing

EDIT: Ian Doncaster is right, it won't be too bad as long as there is some overlap among the factions present in both systems.

• The KWS removes any reputation loss from destroying wanted ships, unless the wanted ship belongs to a criminal faction.

I really like this change personally. I assume the BGS influence effects on destroying wanted ships will remain the same?

 

[Shanaeri]

It's common practice, during bounty-hunting CGs, to head to a neighbouring system if the CG system has a poor selection of RES to farm criminals at. If neighbouring systems' bounties are not revealed any more, this practice will no longer be effective. Is this a bad thing

Yup. this...

So basically it would work like it does in 2.4, but if you hunt in a system with Federal factions, you will never get Empire or Alliance bounty, and if you hunt in a totally independent system, you will never get any independent bounty?

Sounds fine, but you will need to boost bounty values to compensate for the loss of extra bounties.

If that's the case, it does NOT solve the loss of reputation issue. As currently you can retain rep with super powers that aren't in control of that system. Claiming a Fed bounty in an imperial run system is like going to Interpol and getting their naughty list too.

Basically, there is still a gap regarding loss of reputation. So either slow down super power reputation decay or keep this functionality.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Again, looks pretty good to me.

The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdictions superpower.

Is this still counting Independent as a superpower for this purpose?
This was one of my favourite bits of the previous iteration, so I hope so

The KWS removes any reputation loss from destroying wanted ships, unless the wanted ship belongs to a criminal faction.[/B]

Very good on the second bit - together with the Black Market changes in 3.0 this seems to be making Anarchy factions be distinctive rather than just weaker.

Interstellar bounties have a specific role - to make criminals legal targets in every associated jurisdiction. Basically, once you have an Interstellar bounty for a superpower

And - if Independent does count as a superpower for KWS, does it also count for the issuing of Interstellar bounties? (I don't have a strong opinion on which would be better)

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It's common practice, during bounty-hunting CGs, to head to a neighbouring system if the CG system has a poor selection of RES to farm criminals at. If neighbouring systems' bounties are not revealed any more, this practice will no longer be effective. Is this a bad thing

I don't think it's going to be that bad, is it?

- neighbouring system has the same controlling faction as the CG faction: you get primary bounties and can maybe KWS for some extras still depending on what the CG accepts
- neighbouring system has the CG faction present but not controlling: you don't get primary bounties but can pick up extras with KWS (though in my experience you'd need a really bad CG system for this to be worthwhile even now)
- neighbouring system doesn't have the CG faction present: you can maybe pick up superpower bounties with KWS now if they count... it's probably not a big deal if you can't in future.

Personally, the most fun I had with a BH CG was one where there wasn't much opportunity to farm, so the bounty hunters hung around in supercruise and actually protected the traders like the CG description said - if reducing the KWS effectiveness makes more people do that (and sure, Frontier will have to tune the tier levels a bit so that the reduced Cr/hour from hunting rather than farming are accounted for) I'm all for it.

 

[rootsrat]

Hello Commanders!

We've taken a step back and revaluated what we want the Kill Warrant Scanner to achieve, as well as look at how it fits in with the bigger picture of the update crime system. Part of the issue we run into with the KWS is how it interacts with Interstellar bounties. We've decided to more clearly delineate the roles of these to features:

• The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.
• The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdiction’s superpower.
• The KWS removes any reputation loss from destroying wanted ships, unless the wanted ship belongs to a criminal faction.

With this suite of rules, we can see that the Kill Warrant scanner becomes a clearly defined tool. It communicates with all security channels within the system, allowing Commanders to fully exploit bounty hunting opportunities where they are.

This allows the Kill Warrant scanner to be effective in gaining reputation, tactically supporting factions and of course, increasing profits (we'd be looking at making sure the right levels of crime are linked to factions in the system). It also means that bounty hunters can continue to work in anarchies.

Whilst it does lose some power being limited to the system where it is being used, we've offset this by allowing the Kill Warrant scanner to legitimise attack when dealing with bounties associated with a superpower. We've also made it more robust in protecting the bounty hunter's reputation when working a system.

This also allows Interstellar bounties to remain relevant:

• Interstellar Bounties provide a license to kill in all associated jurisdictions.
• Interstellar bounties are packed up for the criminal, unpacked for the bounty hunter.

Interstellar bounties have a specific role - to make criminals legal targets in every associated jurisdiction. Basically, once you have an Interstellar bounty for a superpower (such as the Federation), all bounties from Federal aligned factions will be visible - and legally claimable - to anyone performing a basic scan on you whilst in a Federal aligned jurisdiction. Furthermore, the bounty hunter still retains the ability to claim or avoid individual bounties within an Interstellar bounty, allowing them to interact with the background simulation as before.

These rules also mitigate one of our bugbears: superpowers honouring each others bounties. Whilst this can happen at a local level using the Kill Warrant scanner, such bounties are local bounties connected with the faction rather than the superpower.

Once a bounty becomes Interstellar, the superpowers get involved, and they take a different approach - only accepting claims within their jurisdiction.

Overall, we're quite happy with this proposal, to the point of looking into making it happen, so feedback is greatly appreciated.

Personally - I am happy with this latest proposal. This is something that I think is a really good compromise now - especially the fact that you leave the Interstellar Bounties in (they make a lot of sense and open new gameplay opportunities, i.e. becoming a (in)famous criminal in a whole superpower).

One question - does Independent still count as a Superpower? (I don't think it should personally).

Right on Commander!

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Nice work Sandro and team, sounds like good stuff from both - 2.4 and 3.0 - approaches and even with more clarification. Didn't expect you to work overtime so close to release, but hey, smiles all around, so must be good.

 

[wstephenson]

I don't think it's going to be that bad, is it?

- neighbouring system has the same controlling faction as the CG faction: you get primary bounties and can maybe KWS for some extras still depending on what the CG accepts
- neighbouring system has the CG faction present but not controlling: you don't get primary bounties but can pick up extras with KWS (though in my experience you'd need a really bad CG system for this to be worthwhile even now)
- neighbouring system doesn't have the CG faction present: you can maybe pick up superpower bounties with KWS now if they count... it's probably not a big deal if you can't in future.

Yes, you're right. While I don't have numbers, I suspect that faction overlap between two neighbouring systems is greater than the 'spread' of bounties from neighbouring systems that the 2.4 system can pick up. My bad.

Now if there was only a way to visualise minor factions' areas of influence in the galaxy map, like we can for Powers...

Personally, the most fun I had with a BH CG was one where there wasn't much opportunity to farm, so the bounty hunters hung around in supercruise and actually protected the traders like the CG description said - if reducing the KWS effectiveness makes more people do that (and sure, Frontier will have to tune the tier levels a bit so that the reduced Cr/hour from hunting rather than farming are accounted for) I'm all for it.

Yeah, I love this too. The increased viability of piracy in 3.0 will also work to encourage this player on player security action.

 

[Titus Balls]

Hello Commanders!

We've taken a step back and revaluated what we want the Kill Warrant Scanner to achieve, as well as look at how it fits in with the bigger picture of the update crime system. Part of the issue we run into with the KWS is how it interacts with Interstellar bounties. We've decided to more clearly delineate the roles of these to features:

• The KWS reveals bounties for all jurisdictions in the local system.
• The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdiction’s superpower.
• The KWS removes any reputation loss from destroying wanted ships, unless the wanted ship belongs to a criminal faction.

With this suite of rules, we can see that the Kill Warrant scanner becomes a clearly defined tool. It communicates with all security channels within the system, allowing Commanders to fully exploit bounty hunting opportunities where they are.

This allows the Kill Warrant scanner to be effective in gaining reputation, tactically supporting factions and of course, increasing profits (we'd be looking at making sure the right levels of crime are linked to factions in the system). It also means that bounty hunters can continue to work in anarchies.

Whilst it does lose some power being limited to the system where it is being used, we've offset this by allowing the Kill Warrant scanner to legitimise attack when dealing with bounties associated with a superpower. We've also made it more robust in protecting the bounty hunter's reputation when working a system.

This also allows Interstellar bounties to remain relevant:

• Interstellar Bounties provide a license to kill in all associated jurisdictions.
• Interstellar bounties are packed up for the criminal, unpacked for the bounty hunter.

Interstellar bounties have a specific role - to make criminals legal targets in every associated jurisdiction. Basically, once you have an Interstellar bounty for a superpower (such as the Federation), all bounties from Federal aligned factions will be visible - and legally claimable - to anyone performing a basic scan on you whilst in a Federal aligned jurisdiction. Furthermore, the bounty hunter still retains the ability to claim or avoid individual bounties within an Interstellar bounty, allowing them to interact with the background simulation as before.

These rules also mitigate one of our bugbears: superpowers honouring each others bounties. Whilst this can happen at a local level using the Kill Warrant scanner, such bounties are local bounties connected with the faction rather than the superpower.

Once a bounty becomes Interstellar, the superpowers get involved, and they take a different approach - only accepting claims within their jurisdiction.

Overall, we're quite happy with this proposal, to the point of looking into making it happen, so feedback is greatly appreciated.

This sounds a very good set of compromises, but unless I'm missing something you still haven't address anarchy systems here? Will the KWS still reveal bounties on NPC ships outside the local system? What about players?

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

"The KWS provides a license to kill for all bounties associated with the jurisdictions superpower."
Is this still counting Independent as a superpower for this purpose?
This was one of my favourite bits of the previous iteration, so I hope so

No, sorry, we feel this is uneccessary in the current proposal.

Interstellar bounties have a specific role - to make criminals legal targets in every associated jurisdiction. Basically, once you have an Interstellar bounty for a superpower
And - if Independent does count as a superpower for KWS, does it also count for the issuing of Interstellar bounties? (I don't have a strong opinion on which would be better)

Again, no, in this no proposal, Independent systems return to being just that.

Does this mean that it's going to be possible to find NPCs in a system who are wanted by a minor faction not associated with the superpower who you won't be able to kill in that system?

Yes, the Kill Warrant scanner would reveal all bounties for all factions in the system. However, unless the bounties were issued by factions that were aligned with the same superpower as the jurisdiction's controlling faction you would not be able to legally attack.

e.g. In a jurisdiction controlled by the Beige Cowboys (a Federally aligned faction), bounties issued by the Blandro Corporation (an independent faction in the system) would be detected, but no license to kill would be issued. However, bounties issued by the Folk of No Remarko (another Federally aligned faction in the system) would be detected and would provide a license to kill, as both factions involved (the faction controlling the jurisdiction and the faction issuing the bounty) share the same superpower alignment.

1. How is a KWS handled in Lawless/Anarchy systems? I can see the case where a system is Anarchy controlled, but there are Fed/Imp/Allied/Indy factions with a foothold presence. For Lawless (if I am reading right) the situation is that there is NO authority presence with which to interact so a BH might be on their own.

In anarchy jurisdictions (all lawless factions are becoming anarchies, as the distinction is ultimately unecessary) the Kill Warrant scanner will detect all bounties for all factions in the system. Clearly, no crimes are committed in the anarchy jurisdiction, but detected bounties can be claimed.

2. Notoriety decay rates have been brought forward here - any further changes beyone the 2 Hours of Game time per 1 point of decay?

Not at the moment.

For the avoidance of doubt. Is the KWS as per 3.0 beta planned for release, or will it be re-worked to avoid the issues identified in this thread prior to 3.0 release.

We're investigating this and keep folk updated as soon as we're sure.

The solution outlined above doesn't solve the CG issue where the CG system is poor for bounty hunting but one nearby is much better, albeit operated by another faction.

By this, I assume you mean when the CG system has few hazres locations compared to nearby systems? In this case, correct, this avenue will not be available. We will continue to endeavour to place CGs in systems where they can be completed.

This sounds a very good set of compromises, but unless I'm missing something you still haven't address anarchy systems here? Will the KWS still reveal bounties on NPC ships outside the local system? What about players?

Hopefully this is answered above. As for players, the system works identically: your bounties for all factions in a system will be detected by a Kill Warrant scan, and you will become a legitimate target for attack if at least one of them was issued by a faction with a matching superpower alignment to the jurisdiction you're in.

Bounties for factions in other systems will not be detected unless they are Interstellar bounties matched to your current jurisdiction's superpower.

 

[Shanaeri]

Nice work Sandro and team, sounds like good stuff from both - 2.4 and 3.0 - approaches and even with more clarification. Didn't expect you to work overtime so close to release, but hey, smiles all around, so must be good.

Yup , lots of frantic fingers and furrowed brows I'm sure.

By this, I assume you mean when the CG system has few hazres locations compared to nearby systems? In this case, correct, this avenue will not be available. We will continue to endevour to place CGs in systems where they can be completed.

That sounds like a lot of effort going forwards and a real pain to admin to make sure a CG is able to be completed. Isn't it easier longer term to allow that scenario. Say by including all bounties within say a 15ly radius?

 

[rootsrat]

If that's the case, it does NOT solve the loss of reputation issue. As currently you can retain rep with super powers that aren't in control of that system. Claiming a Fed bounty in an imperial run system is like going to Interpol and getting their naughty list too.

Basically, there is still a gap regarding loss of reputation. So either slow down super power reputation decay or keep this functionality.

I disagree. I think they came up with a nice compromise. You gain something (new C&P + interstellar bounties) and you lose something (rep issue). I really think the last proposal is an acceptable consensus. (And I say that as a 30+ systems faction leader, so I know a thing or two about rep farming here and there ).

 

[wstephenson]

Yup , lots of frantic fingers and furrowed brows I'm sure.

I'd send a team of masseurs in if I thought it would help get this implementation into 3.0. Switching the systems around twice in 3.0 and 3.x will cause confusion to a lot of new players, and BHing is a lot of people's second activity after comms couriering.

 

[DocLooshkin]

Hello again, Mr Sammarco.

The latest proposal makes perfect sense to me, very clean and straightforward. I'm extremely happy with that.
I can't see any major issues arising from it.

Top work, old horse!