Latest stream has more dislikes than likes... FD are you listening?

You didn't mention google, youtube or anything else. You accused FDev of failing to provide a promised patch. They haven't promised a patch 6. I was responding to that point. I note you've ignored that and gone off on a different tangent. You want a patch 6? So do all of us - we want enough patches to fix EDO. But claiming FDev have broken promises by not providing something they have never promised is a breathtaking logical fallacy. They never promised "Patch 6". So their failure to provide it cannot constitute a broken promise.

I am not concerned about the number of patches, only that stuff is getting fixed & personally I am satisfied by Sally's actions that this is being done. I also usually play every day & am able to see first hand whether things are improving or not & my main concern is with design decisions (mostly the UI) rather than actual bugs.

What I hoped the response you quoted would convey is plausible justification for why any viewer might click the dislike button. If it were some organised campaign of hate I'm pretty sure there would be a lot more than the ~160 there were when this thread started.

If anyone's interested in starting a campaign (either way) the current stats on that youtube vid (linked in the OP) are:

Likes 140
Dislikes 298
Views 3,275

I sit in the camp Ian Phillips would approve of, I haven't watched it (or voted).
 
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Large powers have over 50 systems. If you're undermining the system, you won't be looking at haulers anyway... that is the trigger-centric nature.
And uncapped UM turns that on its head, because now the most profitable systems are the ones most at risk because you can't count on them always propping you up. Uncapped means until they stop, you can't stop- this can mean driving them away or doing the same back because if those systems are fully UMed at the end, they generate no CC.

In effect you are making an ad hoc CG where one side has to overcome the attack in any way they can, rather than using maths and obscure rules.
In an instance-based game, just having people with you already ensures that the instance won't be supporting one of the enemy in it. Have enough people of your side in it, and the instance is yours. Matchmaking does prefer who is on your friends list, and the P2P limitations won't ever create more than skirmishes (and may even fail to create them), no matter how much you funnel objectives into a single system and hope the instancing will sort itself out.
Instancing is always going to be a problem, just as blocking lists. But stuff like this still happens because potentially you can't know where the next attack will be.


In the end only by doing it will you see if it works.

Min-maxing will still matter. A wing of folks hunting, praying that instancing works has a lot more to lose for every idle second than the wing of folks with very combat capable ships at a beacon or the 10k shield cutters that won't die to single interdictions, and may even support each other with healing beams, they just need to survive until going into SC again.

A Cutter set for min max cargo is weak, any change to that due to the potential for attack is going to make min max risky (as it should be). Hauling cargo should always be a balance between ship size, defences and capacity. Solo allows you to max cargo with hardly any risk.

Its why PvE wise Powerplay has to change, but players can get as inventive as they like stopping people keeping you on your toes.

Powerplay currently favours min maxing for hauling, because you can do it in total safety. You have to make it so that attack is easier than defence so holding territory is more difficult.

And already you have started thinking about better strategies to overcome things. Imagine what hauling / attacking would be like where the opposition can do anything (as opposed to NPCs that do....very little).

Enlarged drop zones or POIs to move the combat outside of station no-fire zones do make sense, but that's really not making use of the majority of time we spend in-game - supercruising staring at the screen. Supposedly we are getting a ship balance pass this year, and maybe shield stacking won't be as absurd anymore so that even NPCs might go back into doing something more than tickle.
But thats a fault of the wider game and not Powerplay though. Plus, in the PvE example you have to drop to a NAV to find your secret rendezvous, then SC there and then ensure your drop point is free of attackers. With no station to protect you / the NPC, you have to think about more than simple cargo capacity if two G5 NPC Corvettes are after you.

Uncapped UM to target profitables is just going to turn the PP map into a barren wasteland. Profitables further than a certain distance would get relentlessly attacked with extreme trigger efficiency, and powers are going to be further locked into their rotten cores of 5C bad systems that won't get undermined no matter what - good luck having 30k+ triggers versus 3-5k fort triggers for randoms/5C.
Its the only way to make Powerplay actually punchy and bring combatants together though. The Powerplay game board is stuffed to the max with no room to ever expand because defence is far to easy- hauling is safe, consolidation is rife each week (with no negative drawbacks) and you have maths on your side. The only move powers have is weaponised expansions which are protracted slugging matches- uncapped UM swaps that for logical reasons to attack.

You also forget that Sandro suggested vote to drop bad systems- the very first thing powers would do is drop all the crap and have a glut of CC- you need ways to punch through that, and to give Powers the temptation of expansion by making others vulnerable.

My kind of point is that PP should happen more actively, and it doesn't happen because the tendency is that powers freeze - expand until there is not enough CC and you can't do anything about lossmakers/overheads, and no real pressure to keep powers active. Every solution to this won't need the open-only component that would be so riddled with technical issues and breaks the panmodal essence. It will still boil down to a change in how the CC math works so that there is constant change.

Powerplays biggest technical issue is that its far too easy to hold territory. Powerplay now for a long time is largely static because Powers can sit tight, fortify to generate CC, consolidate each week, know each and every fort run can be 100% safe and efficient. We have huge powers that can't be hurt, when it should be the larger you are the harder it is to stay that way. But making the only way to hurt another power a massive abstraction is taking away visceral gameplay which a feature like PP needs.

Powerplay also needs reasons to expand too- the rewards need looking at, and the Galactic Standing should mean more to keep that desire to improve. Some Powers have rubbish rewards, and need a look desperately.

Making a more convoluted BGS with arcane rules is not the way to go- Powerplay is anti abstraction at player level and needs to push in that direction to be more sucessful. The 'pan modal essence' has not worked, and keeps PP in the shadow of the BGS- and why do we need two (well, one properly formed and the other a shell) of the same thing?

In the end Powerplay long term has to stand apart and justify its inclusion- it has to offer something new that nothing else in ED can do. We already have an excellent pan modal conflict simulator in the BGS, I'd hope FD at least try to make something different.
 
Hmmm?

Your passable understanding of the enemies language makes you a person of interest to SOE.

However, should you decide to sell out friends and family, there are fabulous prizes to be won old bean, what what

One would have to know some of the prize details really, but it would be remiss of me to not acknowledge some interest old chap ;)

I think it has been a great thread so far lots of good banter and great CM interaction, the entitled comment did come across as trying to shut down IMO justified criticism but I get the context in which it was said reading back through the posts,
Mr. Hat, are you a double double Agent? 🎩o_O its been a pleasure to see you articulate so eloquently and yes the unintended derailering has been fun (y)

Nah, not intended as anything apart from a jibe at the "entitled" creators of threads we sometimes see, that are simply there to stir up trouble - as in the ones where you get the labored incendiary OP, and then never see that person again in the thread - definitely not like this one! It has been a good thread buddy, you are correct!

As for my status as a secret agent, and how many doubles of one I may be, I shall have to politely decline to comment... One can't be seen to be going around and telling people that my surname is Braben in real life - I'm sure you can understand that would be a foolish thing to do. You will have to continue speculating mate, which is also good fun ;)
 
open only anything doesn't solve anything because anyone interested in exploiting the game to their advantage will just connect via open and close p2p connections to other players on the network level.

So with almost no effort ...you completely circumvent the entire purpose. That's ignoring those who have not done that network change and just dont instance with people due to the normal way the game behaves.

I see no benefit to tying anything to modes as long as the networking backend remains as it is in the game.
Is that going to be everyone though, or the majority?

5C won't be an issue, because through weighting, dropping systems directly, and things like I suggested it would be a pointless task. That leaves those who are set for danger.
 
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One would have to know some of the prize details really, but it would be remiss of me to not acknowledge some interest old chap ;)



Nah, not intended as anything apart from a jibe at the "entitled" creators of threads we sometimes see, that are simply there to stir up trouble - as in the ones where you get the labored incendiary OP, and then never see that person again in the thread - definitely not like this one! It has been a good thread buddy, you are correct!

As for my status as a secret agent, and how many doubles of one I may be, I shall have to politely decline to comment... One can't be seen to be going around and telling people that my surname is Braben in real life - I'm sure you can understand that would be a foolish thing to do. You will have to continue speculating mate, which is also good fun ;)
Today we are offering your choice of these fabulous prizes:

A. A week in Skegness
B. A holiday for one in North Korea (accomodation provided by the local government)
C. Pandemic insurance (does not include cover for communicable infections)
D. Livestream insurance (will protect your feels when you get all hot and bothered)
E. A bar of lifebuoy soap

Toodly pipsky old bean
 
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Is that going to be everyone though, or the majority?

everyone you care about who is being effective at manipulating their modes to their advantage would also likely not have a problem playing with a quick network change to keep doing what they're doing.

in other words... the players who just casually play aren't making a difference one way or the other regardless of their mode.

The players who make a difference are already putting a lot of effort into the game to be effective and efficient. A network setting isn't going to phase them if it means improving efficiency. It just becomes another aspect of playing this game. Like relogging.
 
Actually, there is...
in Elite Week, someone had the exact same issue. For over 10 days, he argued with Frontier. Fdev said: No way Jose! We cannot remove the product from your account.
So he called the Credit card company and reported it as a fraudulent transaction. Lo and Behold, the CC company refunded him the money. Not 24 hours later, Odyssey was removed from his account.
He had it all documented of course. Reason for the refund was lack of VR, especially since to begin with, Fdev said, there would be VR, so the guy bought Odyssey. But then went back on their word, they refused the refund, hence the call to the Credit card company.
I have no idea which Elite Week you're referring to since it became so salty and toxic I just couldn't stand it any more and stopped listening, but "we cannot remove the product from your account" was obviously based on policy and not on technical feasibility. I'd be curious to know (without having to consume any more Elite Week) how many hours of playtime this account had in Odyssey, because that almost certainly has an impact on the decision tree for someone asking for a refund for a feature they were never promised.

It's worth noting you can literally dispute almost any payment on your credit card and get an instant refund. The card issuer's relationship is with you - after all, you are their source of income - and not with the retailers, so the burden of proof is on the retailer to prove the dispute incorrect. The bar for providing that proof is so extraordinarily high that most online businesses I've been involved with just eat the recharge cost. This means it costs the card issuer absolutely nothing and they earn some brownie points with the customer. If you're looking for external validation that VR was a promised feature and the current stance on VR constitutes fraud, this isn't it.
 
I imagine Zac means big issues, not special people in any sense.
I'm afraid I read it to mean special people; which is a bad mistake and quite annoying. I hope ED isn't really going to go in for "influencers". A "focussed feedback" on that topic needs to be open to all.
 
everyone you care about who is being effective at manipulating their modes to their advantage would also likely not have a problem playing with a quick network change to keep doing what they're doing.

in other words... the players who just casually play aren't making a difference one way or the other regardless of their mode.

The players who make a difference are already putting a lot of effort into the game to be effective and efficient. A network setting isn't going to phase them if it means improving efficiency. It just becomes another aspect of playing this game. Like relogging.
So cheat then, effectively? I can understand if it happens because of outside factors, but doing it intentionally is low.

But I still think at least trying it is better than keeping modes as they are. Some of the most joined up Powerplay gameplay was in open- at least having a 'proper' Open portion would be exellent.
 
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Deleted member 182079

D
I have no idea which Elite Week you're referring to since it became so salty and toxic I just couldn't stand it any more and stopped listening, but "we cannot remove the product from your account" was obviously based on policy and not on technical feasibility. I'd be curious to know (without having to consume any more Elite Week) how many hours of playtime this account had in Odyssey, because that almost certainly has an impact on the decision tree for someone asking for a refund for a feature they were never promised.

It's worth noting you can literally dispute almost any payment on your credit card and get an instant refund. The card issuer's relationship is with you - after all, you are their source of income - and not with the retailers, so the burden of proof is on the retailer to prove the dispute incorrect. The bar for providing that proof is so extraordinarily high that most online businesses I've been involved with just eat the recharge cost. This means it costs the card issuer absolutely nothing and they earn some brownie points with the customer. If you're looking for external validation that VR was a promised feature and the current stance on VR constitutes fraud, this isn't it.
To be honest, at this stage after dumping dozens of hours into EDO (some enjoyable, others not so much) I'd feel a bit cheap to request a refund - though I would happily accept it if Frontier offered me one. So no refund for me I guess...

As for working through your CC company, I vaguely remember reading this could affect your credit rating but this was so long ago I wouldn't be confident in suggesting this now... Only made use of this option twice when being the victim of fraudulent transactions, not customer service disputes so no idea.
 
Today we are offering your choice of these fabulous prizes:

A. A week in Skegness
B. A holiday for one in North Korea (accomodation provided by the local government)
C. Pandemic insurance (does not include cover for communicable infections)
D. Livestream insurance (will protect your feels when you get all hot and bothered)
E. A bar of lifebuoy soap

Toodly pipsky old bean

Lifebuoy you say, hmmmm....I shall confer with Mrs Hat and get back to you old chap ;)
 
And uncapped UM turns that on its head, because now the most profitable systems are the ones most at risk because you can't count on them always propping you up. Uncapped means until they stop, you can't stop- this can mean driving them away or doing the same back because if those systems are fully UMed at the end, they generate no CC.

In effect you are making an ad hoc CG where one side has to overcome the attack in any way they can, rather than using maths and obscure rules.

Instancing is always going to be a problem, just as blocking lists. But stuff like this still happens because potentially you can't know where the next attack will be.


In the end only by doing it will you see if it works.



A Cutter set for min max cargo is weak, any change to that due to the potential for attack is going to make min max risky (as it should be). Hauling cargo should always be a balance between ship size, defences and capacity. Solo allows you to max cargo with hardly any risk.

Its why PvE wise Powerplay has to change, but players can get as inventive as they like stopping people keeping you on your toes.

Powerplay currently favours min maxing for hauling, because you can do it in total safety. You have to make it so that attack is easier than defence so holding territory is more difficult.

And already you have started thinking about better strategies to overcome things. Imagine what hauling / attacking would be like where the opposition can do anything (as opposed to NPCs that do....very little).


But thats a fault of the wider game and not Powerplay though. Plus, in the PvE example you have to drop to a NAV to find your secret rendezvous, then SC there and then ensure your drop point is free of attackers. With no station to protect you / the NPC, you have to think about more than simple cargo capacity if two G5 NPC Corvettes are after you.


Its the only way to make Powerplay actually punchy and bring combatants together though. The Powerplay game board is stuffed to the max with no room to ever expand because defence is far to easy- hauling is safe, consolidation is rife each week (with no negative drawbacks) and you have maths on your side. The only move powers have is weaponised expansions which are protracted slugging matches- uncapped UM swaps that for logical reasons to attack.

You also forget that Sandro suggested vote to drop bad systems- the very first thing powers would do is drop all the crap and have a glut of CC- you need ways to punch through that, and to give Powers the temptation of expansion by making others vulnerable.



Powerplays biggest technical issue is that its far too easy to hold territory. Powerplay now for a long time is largely static because Powers can sit tight, fortify to generate CC, consolidate each week, know each and every fort run can be 100% safe and efficient. We have huge powers that can't be hurt, when it should be the larger you are the harder it is to stay that way. But making the only way to hurt another power a massive abstraction is taking away visceral gameplay which a feature like PP needs.

Powerplay also needs reasons to expand too- the rewards need looking at, and the Galactic Standing should mean more to keep that desire to improve. Some Powers have rubbish rewards, and need a look desperately.

Making a more convoluted BGS with arcane rules is not the way to go- Powerplay is anti abstraction at player level and needs to push in that direction to be more sucessful. The 'pan modal essence' has not worked, and keeps PP in the shadow of the BGS- and why do we need two (well, one properly formed and the other a shell) of the same thing?

In the end Powerplay long term has to stand apart and justify its inclusion- it has to offer something new that nothing else in ED can do. We already have an excellent pan modal conflict simulator in the BGS, I'd hope FD at least try to make something different.
Uncapped UM with the other things like removal of overhead and voting bad systems out will make sense. Currently PP is too drastic, it ranges from a few incredible 150 CC+ spheres all the way down to spheres that are either barely profitable or due to overhead and upkeep are lossmakers no matter what. Deciding to expand and maintain one more system needs to come with its set of challenges, I agree with it.

A trading BGS ship has the added potential for earning bounties on its way, so it's more BGS-efficient than a min-maxed cargo ship. You're not forced to do it, but you'll earn more for it. PP needs that equivalent so that no matter the mode you'd prefer sacrificing some cargo to outfit for self-defense and even offensive capability. PP can't ever fully rely on PvP as its challenge component, so the PvE hurdles do need to exist.

We get rid of the bad systems and everyone will have CC to play with and then you throw incentive/threat to remain active and reap challenge/rewards for doing well in a galactic standing that makes sense. Even collapsing should be incredibly hard, but possible.The problem is that you can't point out all these system issues that we agree with that are holding PP back and then make a huge logic leap that "pan modal has failed for PP".
 
Actually, there is...
in Elite Week, someone had the exact same issue. For over 10 days, he argued with Frontier. Fdev said: No way Jose! We cannot remove the product from your account.
So he called the Credit card company and reported it as a fraudulent transaction. Lo and Behold, the CC company refunded him the money. Not 24 hours later, Odyssey was removed from his account.
He had it all documented of course. Reason for the refund was lack of VR, especially since to begin with, Fdev said, there would be VR, so the guy bought Odyssey. But then went back on their word, they refused the refund, hence the call to the Credit card company.
Just one point. It wasn't Elite Week. It was the Loose Screws podcast.

That is one thing that I really do agree with, and one that's causing a great deal of resentment, is that if a player had purchased Odyssey solely on the premise that they saw that on foot VR will not be in the game at Launch (which is technically true) and still bought the DLC thinking that they'd update VR later, fdev should just give the player their money back and remove Odyssey from their account. It's the phrase 'At Launch' which implies that there is going to be further development on VR, which was obviously not forth coming.

We had the same thing with Offline gate. A lot of players, myself included, backed the kickstarter because they said there was going to be an offline mode which meant if the game's online mode went away, we still have a game. This was dropped about a month before release which cause massive fallout and still has a lot of people wary of FDev keeping their word. It was only when they said that when the game is 'sunset' (a term I seriously hate), they will make the game available to be played offline, did I calm down. Obviously, with the latest goings on, you do wonder if that's another thing they'll roll back on in the future.
 
Uncapped UM with the other things like removal of overhead and voting bad systems out will make sense. Currently PP is too drastic, it ranges from a few incredible 150 CC+ spheres all the way down to spheres that are either barely profitable or due to overhead and upkeep are lossmakers no matter what. Deciding to expand and maintain one more system needs to come with its set of challenges, I agree with it.

A trading BGS ship has the added potential for earning bounties on its way, so it's more BGS-efficient than a min-maxed cargo ship. You're not forced to do it, but you'll earn more for it. PP needs that equivalent so that no matter the mode you'd prefer sacrificing some cargo to outfit for self-defense and even offensive capability. PP can't ever fully rely on PvP as its challenge component, so the PvE hurdles do need to exist.

We get rid of the bad systems and everyone will have CC to play with and then you throw incentive/threat to remain active and reap challenge/rewards for doing well in a galactic standing that makes sense. Even collapsing should be incredibly hard, but possible.The problem is that you can't point out all these system issues that we agree with that are holding PP back and then make a huge logic leap that "pan modal has failed for PP".
To me it has: solo (i.e. the PvE layer) provides no real pushback for solo players, meaning each week a power can be fortified the same way down to the minute. In my PvE suggestion link I break all of those down, so its not impossible to make NPCs hard enough, its how much FD are willing to do. NPCs have to be able to make fortification and general travel hard- rival territory should count for something and NPCs currently just don't do enough to exemplify that.

Powerplay regardless of mode should be a challenge, because its overcoming obstacles to help the cause that should make pledging worth it and rewarding gameplay wise. But this (for me at least) never happens in solo- my time in that mode back at the start was grindy because very little actually happened minute to minute. I could guess when and where I'd be attacked and stuff became routine. Open breaks all that, because players have full engineering, they know no rules, and they know where you will be heading. If NP[Cs can replicate that, then thats a great start.

Its the deficiencies of NPCs outside of combat areas and navs that are one of my issues, if not the issue for me. Its here where Powerplay should come alive, where power territories should mean sweating bullets or breathing a sigh of relief. NPCs should be agressive, raiding in large wings, making life difficult but PP NPCs are a running joke.

You can invert it too- make PG and Open easier in some ways to solo- this proposal is an earlier suggestion I made (and formed the basis for the Pve Solo one)


In short, it becomes an almost survival based mode the more you do.
 
Hey Danieros,

This is exactly why it's not going to be a quick fix. We're looking at what's best for the health of PowerPlay and what works for the majority of players who partake in it. It's impossible to please everyone in a scenario like this but we want to take the time to work through player thoughts about it and decide what we can do.

I can't speak to how PowerPlay has been addressed in the past as I only started in December of last year, and the current community team really only formed in it's current shape around the first half of 2020, so anything before that we can't really impact on.

Well as a starting base to help you along :) Braben stated quite categorically to everyone, especially the people at the kickstarter time, that anything available in one mode would be available in all modes. So open-only anything can be removed from the agenda right now. Obviously PvP can only be had in open mode.
 
So cheat then, effectively? I can understand if it happens because of outside factors, but doing it intentionally is low.

You can't differentiate cheating (in this instance) from just everyone's normal networking issues with ipv4 and NAT. It's even less "cheaty" looking than relogging, which Fdev has all but made a defacto way to play the game.

you already have players using a bunch of free accounts to massively effect the BGS thru mission stacking that while simultaneously netting them hundreds of millions to billion+ credits per hour, also is just as effective at pushing the BGS - because they're both done the same way with the same activities.

There's absolutely nothing "cheaty" about that ...the weak gameplay is what allows someone to simultaneously operate multiple accounts effectively without even needing bots (though those can make it even easier).


But I still think at least trying it is better than keeping modes as they are. Some of the most joined up Powerplay gameplay was in open- at least having a 'proper' Open portion would be exellent.

Trying would be making PVE as competitive as general PVP would be. Especially when participating in optional activities such as power play.

That would be effective and worthwhile. Open-only has no hope at all of levelling the playing field the way you imagine.
 
'will' is a bit strong. Most I recall is 'we'll' think about it'. Some people do seem intent on being upset about stuff said years ago ....
If “will” is a bit strong - how about “would” instead?

2014-11-19 David Braben in FD Newsletter #50

What is Frontier's plan for when the servers shut down?
We do not plan to shut the servers down, but understand it is a reasonable question. We are at the beginning of the game not the end and are focused on creating a game that we hope will be played for many years in the future. We do plan to take regular archives of the game and the servers, to preserve the game for the future.

Could the server code be released publicly some day when the servers are shut down?
Yes. This is something we would do if for whatever reason we cannot keep the game going.
 
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