Make Guardian SLF's great...uhhh, for once?

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

The guardian SLF's, those little fighters introduced a while ago to fight the thargoid menace. Hybrid technology that was meant to be effective and swift. Sadly they are now -or never were- useful against Thargoids.

Since update 15 arrived, thargoids have...changed their strategy towards us hunters, a change that sadly has made the Guardians SLF's useless in all ways, even with "proper" management. As you may know, these fighters have no heatsinks/Cuastic sinks/Silent running available, making them sitting docks against all types of Thargoid vessels and considering they have -null- low integrity they die almost instanlty, and worse now that the Thargoids (Specially interceptors/swarm/scouts) Target them as if they were the biggest enemy of all, even using ligthing attacks, seriously, if Guardian SLF's ever posed such a threat to deserve such level of attack responses.

The issue comes as this new change in thargoid AI, has made the SLF's even more usless than they already were. There's also an Issue tracker, thankfully confirmed but apparently ignored as it's from several months ago.
https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/61739

My suggestion is, either change the AI to what it was, so that the interceptor focuses in the mothership rather than in the SLF like before.
Or, buff the Guardian SLF with new Guardian tech (Be it weapons like guardian missiles or countermeasures against the swarm and caustic missiles), more hull points (Caustic resitant cause they die in a matter of seconds after getting touched by caustic clouds), or any kind of special ability to deal with the Thargoids' attacks and defenses.

Guardian SLF's are a great addition to the game and it's honestly sad to see them being useless as it takes a lot of time and efforts --Mostly patience--, to unlock them.

 

[DemiserofD]

From my testing, the current bug seems to be with old NPCs, who seem to be firing at Harmless levels. If you level up a new one, it seems to do better.

As someone who has used them consistently for years, the main change I'd like is something to let them survive caustic death clouds. Right now, they have a massive tendency to fly through them and instantly explode.

Honestly, I don't really mind the current way the interceptors target them. They seem to miss quite a bit. They do die, but actually LESS than before to the swarms. They could leave that part as it is. But fixing the NPC ai so they can actually hit would be nice.

I would suggest using the Shard Cannon fighter at the moment. Thanks to the spread, they are able to hit most consistently.

 

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

From my testing, the current bug seems to be with old NPCs, who seem to be firing at Harmless levels. If you level up a new one, it seems to do better.

As someone who has used them consistently for years, the main change I'd like is something to let them survive caustic death clouds. Right now, they have a massive tendency to fly through them and instantly explode.

Honestly, I don't really mind the current way the interceptors target them. They seem to miss quite a bit. They do die, but actually LESS than before to the swarms. They could leave that part as it is. But fixing the NPC ai so they can actually hit would be nice.

I would suggest using the Shard Cannon fighter at the moment. Thanks to the spread, they are able to hit most consistently.

The issue is not with the NPC accuracy, is about the SLF itself, it can't withstand nor avoid thargoid damage nor abilities, if it can right now is becuase Thargoids have an issue firing at it, which has been reported too and even with such issue the lighting attack and missiles are pretty much unavoidable for them.

Thargoids aren't meant to focus on them, there's no strategic logic in that change. However, being targeted by the swarm is just fine and still, it's annoying to see the SLF die in a matter of seconds because of ligthing attacks from interceptors, such attacks were reserved only against normal human ships.

Guardian SLF's are too fragile for a ship that requires a lot of materials to be crafted and that's the problem.

 

[Kaocraft]

interesting. I'm pretty new to Thargoid combat and to using SLFs as well. I still find them useful although mostly for taking out scouts or as a way to take the pressure off my main ship since as you say they seem to become target priority number one for the Interceptors. The fighters don't usually last more than a minute or two in most of the use cases I've brought them out for (mostly AX CZs around stations and settlements), but they still seemed useful albeit maybe a little more trouble than they're worth.

I would really love to see an SLF with flechette launchers. Especially in multicrew it would be wonderful to have a little ship dedicated to just taking out the swarms.

 

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

interesting. I'm pretty new to Thargoid combat and to using SLFs as well. I still find them useful although mostly for taking out scouts or as a way to take the pressure off my main ship since as you say they seem to become target priority number one for the Interceptors. The fighters don't usually last more than a minute or two in most of the use cases I've brought them out for (mostly AX CZs around stations and settlements), but they still seemed useful albeit maybe a little more trouble than they're worth.

I would really love to see an SLF with flechette launchers. Especially in multicrew it would be wonderful to have a little ship dedicated to just taking out the swarms.

Of course they can be useful at times, legendary attack runs can happen, unfortunately these attack runs are too rare. SLF's will most likely die even before doing some damage, and they aren't intelligent enough to attack if Thargoids are facing them. The only use they could have right now is bait, and even as that they are bad at it.

Having in mind these SLF's are experimental/hybrid, putting a normal Flak launcher in their weapon section would also be a waste of materials and effort, they need something up to their technology, something more guardian-ish.

 

[Weps]

My favourite part is when an interceptor uses the lightning attack on them. Correct me if I'm wrong, that's just what I observed, but when the lightning attack hits, they just explode. It's like the Thargoid interceptor sneezes and the SLF goes !poof. It's like watching Dormammu punish Dr. Strange.

 

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

My favourite part is when an interceptor uses the lightning attack on them. Correct me if I'm wrong, that's just what I observed, but when the lightning attack hits, they just explode. It's like the Thargoid interceptor sneezes and the SLF goes !poof. It's like watching Dormammu punish Dr. Strange.

And right after that happens the interceptor just ends up confused like. "What just happened!?"

 

[Planewalker]

From my testing, the current bug seems to be with old NPCs, who seem to be firing at Harmless levels. If you level up a new one, it seems to do better.

My NPC from way back since they were introduced finally got to Dangerous and is capable of taking on deadly anacondas, so i don't think it is an easy bug to verify.

 

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

My NPC from way back since they were introduced finally got to Dangerous and is capable of taking on deadly anacondas, so i don't think it is an easy bug to verify.

It also affected the NPC crew using Guardian SLF's. Imagine missing the shots with something as big as an interceptor.

 

[Shadowsnog]

My NPC from way back since they were introduced finally got to Dangerous and is capable of taking on deadly anacondas, so i don't think it is an easy bug to verify.

that is... concerning... dont get me wrong, im happy for you, but my elite slf pilot has problems with dangerous vultures when seated in the guardian pa slf...

 

[Planewalker]

that is... concerning... dont get me wrong, im happy for you, but my elite slf pilot has problems with dangerous vultures when seated in the guardian pa slf...

Read some more about it and i haven't tested a lot with guardian slf, but will tonight. -problem is the current aggro bug wrt thargoids/slfs.

In any case i've seen enough people mention it that i have no doubt there is an issue of some kind, problem as always is finding the root.

 

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

problem is the current aggro bug wrt thargoids/slfs.

Yes, This is correct.

 

[DemiserofD]

The issue I experienced was my elite NPC being unable to consistently hit anything, even larger thargoids. Before, she could consistently exert a basilisk singlehandedly. After, she could not.

 

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

The issue I experienced was my elite NPC being unable to consistently hit anything, even larger thargoids. Before, she could consistently exert a basilisk singlehandedly. After, she could not.

You can hire a new one and train it up to Elite once again, that should fix it.
The other problem is the Guardian SLF being too weak against thargoids, no way to avoid damage nor thargoid abilities (Specially lighting, they just go pop), and the fact that they deal Very low damage. Seriously, Triden does 8 damage per shot (yes, not damage per second for some reason).
For a hybrid ship made by an engineer with LOTS of guardian knowledge, they are trash.

 

[DemiserofD]

You can hire a new one and train it up to Elite once again, that should fix it.
The other problem is the Guardian SLF being too weak against thargoids, no way to avoid damage nor thargoid abilities (Specially lighting, they just go pop), and the fact that they deal Very low damage. Seriously, Triden does 8 damage per shot (yes, not damage per second for some reason).
For a hybrid ship made by an engineer with LOTS of guardian knowledge, they are trash.

Yeah, that's what I've been doing.

The damage thing isn't accurate, though. Like I said, my elite npc in a guardian fighter could consistently solo-exert a basilisk, something quite a few players can't even do.
But that's not the important part. The important part is, that damage is atop your other weapons. For example, if you try to exert a hydra with(for some reason) 4 large and 2 medium gimballed enhanced AXMCs, it'll take you about 400 seconds of constant firing to get the exert. Adding a gauss fighter changes that to 48 seconds. On a medusa, it'll cut you from 57 seconds to 23 seconds.

Guardian SLFs effectively give you not only a bonus hardpoint, but also a bonus distributor to charge it, and infinite ammo on that bonus hardpoint. In any situation where DPS or sustainability are issues(essentially, any time you're not in a group setting), a fighter is fantastic.

Speaking as someone who so consistently uses SLFs that they quit when the goids started targeting them too preferentially, their big issue isn't their damage, it's their vulnerability to unavoidables, like scout missiles and death clouds. Simply giving them a caustic sink would dramatically improve their performance, and given they currently lack a utility, the addition would be more than justified.

 

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

Yeah, that's what I've been doing.

The damage thing isn't accurate, though. Like I said, my elite npc in a guardian fighter could consistently solo-exert a basilisk, something quite a few players can't even do.
But that's not the important part. The important part is, that damage is atop your other weapons. For example, if you try to exert a hydra with(for some reason) 4 large and 2 medium gimballed enhanced AXMCs, it'll take you about 400 seconds of constant firing to get the exert. Adding a gauss fighter changes that to 48 seconds. On a medusa, it'll cut you from 57 seconds to 23 seconds.

Guardian SLFs effectively give you not only a bonus hardpoint, but also a bonus distributor to charge it, and infinite ammo on that bonus hardpoint. In any situation where DPS or sustainability are issues(essentially, any time you're not in a group setting), a fighter is fantastic.

Speaking as someone who so consistently uses SLFs that they quit when the goids started targeting them too preferentially, their big issue isn't their damage, it's their vulnerability to unavoidables, like scout missiles and death clouds. Simply giving them a caustic sink would dramatically improve their performance, and given they currently lack a utility, the addition would be more than justified.

The Damage remains low, let us not forget their damage to human ships is also reduced even further around 30-50% and they become pretty much uselles against Medusa and hydra.
The problem of giving them something humanish like a caustic sink will simply leave them as a waste of guardian materials, If we want them to avoid damage and resist Thargoid weapons/abilities, a more guardian ish technology is necessary.

 

[DemiserofD]

The Damage remains low, let us not forget their damage to human ships is also reduced even further around 30-50% and they become pretty much uselles against Medusa and hydra.
The problem of giving them something humanish like a caustic sink will simply leave them as a waste of guardian materials, If we want them to avoid damage and resist Thargoid weapons/abilities, a more guardian ish technology is necessary.

I wouldn't call them useless against medusas and hydras! The opposite, if anything; their very high regen and AP means your base damage is reduced dramatically, so ANY additional damage is way MORE useful.

Consider the following.

Against a basilisk with 4 gauss cannons, you are dealing about 17.5 x 4 damage every 2 seconds, or about 35 DPS. A basilisk has 7.2 regeneration, so you're actually doing about 27.8 DPS. A gauss fighter with an elite NPC does about 15 DPS, so taking an elite gauss fighter boosts your exert DPS by 53%.

Against a Hydra with 4 gauss cannons, you are dealing the same 17.5 x 4 damage every 2 seconds, but Hydras have 210 AP. 140 armor piercing on gauss divided by 210 AP means you're only doing 66% damage, AND hydras regenerate 12.8 hp/sec. So you're dealing 23.1 DPS, and the hydra regenerates that down to a mere 10.3 DPS. Then, the gauss fighter deals 66% of 15 DPS, or about 10 DPS, meaning that measly fighter is actually doubling your total DPS.

Of course, this assumes that you are only using 4 weapons which isn't necessarily the case these days, but it also assumes that you're hitting 100% of your shots within the ideal range, etc.

On the whole, damage-wise, fighters are fantastic. Their big problem isn't damage, it's surviving to DEAL that damage. Historically speaking, the swarms would kill them in seconds. Nowadays they seem to be able to survive a bit longer due to faulty swarm targeting, but they still die virtually instantly to anything that pierces their shields, especially caustic damage.

Which is why THAT is my main focus. Sure, after we fix that we can focus on other stuff, but without fixing that basic problem they're always gonna be pretty meh no matter what else you do to them!

 

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

I wouldn't call them useless against medusas and hydras! The opposite, if anything; their very high regen and AP means your base damage is reduced dramatically, so ANY additional damage is way MORE useful.

Consider the following.

Against a basilisk with 4 gauss cannons, you are dealing about 17.5 x 4 damage every 2 seconds, or about 35 DPS. A basilisk has 7.2 regeneration, so you're actually doing about 27.8 DPS. A gauss fighter with an elite NPC does about 15 DPS, so taking an elite gauss fighter boosts your exert DPS by 53%.

Against a Hydra with 4 gauss cannons, you are dealing the same 17.5 x 4 damage every 2 seconds, but Hydras have 210 AP. 140 armor piercing on gauss divided by 210 AP means you're only doing 66% damage, AND hydras regenerate 12.8 hp/sec. So you're dealing 23.1 DPS, and the hydra regenerates that down to a mere 10.3 DPS. Then, the gauss fighter deals 66% of 15 DPS, or about 10 DPS, meaning that measly fighter is actually doubling your total DPS.

Of course, this assumes that you are only using 4 weapons which isn't necessarily the case these days, but it also assumes that you're hitting 100% of your shots within the ideal range, etc.

On the whole, damage-wise, fighters are fantastic. Their big problem isn't damage, it's surviving to DEAL that damage. Historically speaking, the swarms would kill them in seconds. Nowadays they seem to be able to survive a bit longer due to faulty swarm targeting, but they still die virtually instantly to anything that pierces their shields, especially caustic damage.

Which is why THAT is my main focus. Sure, after we fix that we can focus on other stuff, but without fixing that basic problem they're always gonna be pretty meh no matter what else you do to them!

Agreed, Swarm usually takes them down before even doing any damage, and the interceptors deals phasing damage which easily penetrates the SLF shield...No idea why they aren't protected against that type of damage if they are meant to have a guardian shield, Even visually they do.

If we want them to survive the damage we will need them to have more hull points and shield points (Phasing resistant of course) and the alloys to be caustic resistant considering Guardian tech is able to reisist the caustic damage. However, adding more guardian tech like I said in the Original Post, would be appreciated as they only have a SMALL HARDPOINT and nothing more, Ram Tah couldn't develop any other guardian tech with all his knowledge? if this is the pinnacle of guardian technology, I am not impressed

 

[DemiserofD]

Agreed, Swarm usually takes them down before even doing any damage, and the interceptors deals phasing damage which easily penetrates the SLF shield...No idea why they aren't protected against that type of damage if they are meant to have a guardian shield, Even visually they do.

If we want them to survive the damage we will need them to have more hull points and shield points (Phasing resistant of course) and the alloys to be caustic resistant considering Guardian tech is able to reisist the caustic damage. However, adding more guardian tech like I said in the Original Post, would be appreciated as they only have a SMALL HARDPOINT and nothing more, Ram Tah couldn't develop any other guardian tech with all his knowledge? if this is the pinnacle of guardian technology, I am not impressed

Honestly, it's just not ever going to be practical for them to have the sort of shields and armor needed to survive any sort of direct attack. In order to do that, they'd need to have on the order of hundreds of shields and armor, and that would make them incredibly overpowered in normal pve or pvp play.

I would rather they gain more resistance to the special attacks of the thargons and thargoids, instead. A caustic sink, and perhaps some sort of guardian phasing-resistant shield, to keep the swarm from killing them when they still have 70% of their shield remaining. If they could just survive until their shield goes down, it would be more than enough to multiply their survival rates.

Remember, they ARE still just a fighter. They're not supposed to be indestructible...just, perhaps not quite as flimsy as they currently are.

 

[CMDR Tod Quiller]

Honestly, it's just not ever going to be practical for them to have the sort of shields and armor needed to survive any sort of direct attack. In order to do that, they'd need to have on the order of hundreds of shields and armor, and that would make them incredibly overpowered in normal pve or pvp play.

I would rather they gain more resistance to the special attacks of the thargons and thargoids, instead. A caustic sink, and perhaps some sort of guardian phasing-resistant shield, to keep the swarm from killing them when they still have 70% of their shield remaining. If they could just survive until their shield goes down, it would be more than enough to multiply their survival rates.

Remember, they ARE still just a fighter. They're not supposed to be indestructible...just, perhaps not quite as flimsy as they currently are.

Even with the Taipan's Hull integrity would be enough to increase their survivability, of course we don't need like 100 SP and 100 HP. but at least an increase. They are pretty vulnerable to ALL attacks, not only thargoid damage but normal human weapons.
They are meant to be an updgrade, a hybrid, both agile and resistant. And if they are made of guardian tech, the increase of their stats and the addition of new weapons to their build is justified.