Make Solo Powerplay PvE dangerous (targeted interdcitions using existing mechanics)

[Robert Maynard]

Its not a requirement- not even I said that- I said this:

There's not a whole lot of difference between:

and that at a high level of rank and merit count it makes co-operation in PG or Open more important

and:

to attempt to require players to play in the multi-player modes.

.... in my opinion at least, noting that the requirement to play in a multi-player mode (that need not be Open) would only reasonably be a requirement to co-operate..

Plus, wing missions can be done alone too, its up to the player- and also that you can play to your 'level'.

In the end, if you want NPCs to worry players (and alter how they play) they have to be a threat. There is no other way in ED- if you had larger (four plus) wings of unengineered ships you are then replicating what exists at NAVs.

Indeed.

So I'll ask again, how do you make NPCs challenging without making them challenging?

Doesn't seem possible - but then that's not what I said.

Why is it CZs can change regardless of having engineering or not, but Powerplay has to remain as it is?

CZs stay put and don't chase players around.

Why is it Thargoids and wing missions can be done in all modes according to taste, but Powerplay cannot?

Powerplay can be done in all modes according to taste, although that depends on ones taste preference....

 

[Rubbernuke]

There's not a whole lot of difference between:

and:

.... in my opinion at least, noting that the requirement to play in a multi-player mode (that need not be Open) would only reasonably be a requirement to co-operate..

Which is nonsense really, when wing missions, Thargoids, CZs exist and is exactly the same gameplay. You can do it alone if you are skilled or want to take a chance, or can do it in groups co-cooperatively. The only difference is that Powerplay has consequences outside the instance- without that consequence of either having to run, are destroyed, or wasting time you are not doing your mission.

Doesn't seem possible - but then that's not what I said.

No, I'm asking you the question.

CZs stay put and don't chase players around.

Thats not the point- if you fight a war you have to go to it and fight the uprated and engineered ships inside it. My proposal copies the CZ (at least in the lower ranks) so in the end there is little difference between CZ enemies, high end wing missions to the rank 1 to 3 (i.e. the casual Powerplay ranks). Powerplay is territorial combat played out across the bubble, why shouldn't players be interdicted across that?

Powerplay can be done in all modes according to taste, although that depends on ones taste preference....

Which is sidestepping the question.

So what is it then? You can't have it both ways. On one hand you dislike Open Only, and on the other you dislike solo scaling in difficulty (which I might add is pan modal and equal across modes- something I thought you wanted?).

 

[Robert Maynard]

No, I'm asking you the question.

If the question is "how do you make NPCs challenging without making them challenging?" then it doesn't seem to have a rational answer.

So what is it then? You can't have it both ways. On one hand you dislike Open Only, and on the other you dislike solo scaling in difficulty (which I might add is pan modal and equal across modes- something I thought you wanted?).

I'm not actually opposed to difficulty scaling - merely to the proposed means of doing so, i.e. introducing engineered opponents to a base game feature which would affect players without Horizons and also those who haven't done much engineering even if they do have access to it; introducing a requirement to co-operate to a feature that is required to be able to be played in Solo.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If the question is "how do you make NPCs challenging without making them challenging?" then it doesn't seem to have a rational answer.

Well this is what you are arguing for- as outlined Powerplay has a need for NPCs to replicate antagonistic players (something it fails at, making Powerplay dull and lifeless). Since Poewerplay is an opt in, open ended mission to either deliver or shoot, you need opposition to oppose your aims.

I'm not actually opposed to difficulty scaling - merely to the proposed means of doing so, i.e. introducing engineered opponents to a base game feature which would affect players without Horizons and also those who haven't done much engineering even if they do have access to it; introducing a requirement to co-operate to a feature that is required to be able to be played in Solo.

introducing a requirement to co-operate to a feature that is required to be able to be played in Solo.

? You will be able to play it in solo, none of this is mode locked- just like CZs, wing missions and Thargoid content. You can even work to your difficulty threshold too- all pan modally.

And like I said, CZs are base game feature content. The same for Thargoids. You also forget that you don't have to fight- you can run as well. The main thing is that these NPCs keep you on your toes.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well this is what you are arguing for- as outlined Powerplay has a need for NPCs to replicate antagonistic players (something it fails at, making Powerplay dull and lifeless). Since Poewerplay is an opt in, open ended mission to either deliver or shoot, you need opposition to oppose your aims.

It's not - as I made clear in my last post.

? You will be able to play it in solo, none of this is mode locked- just like CZs, wing missions and Thargoid content. You can even work to your difficulty threshold too- all pan modally.

.... but be locked out of the higher ranks in Solo because the suite of changes

makes co-operation in PG or Open more important

And like I said, CZs are base game feature content. The same for Thargoids. You also forget that you don't have to fight- you can run as well. The main thing is that these NPCs keep you on your toes.

No issue with NPCs keeping players on their toes - how they do so and at what challenge level is at the core of the discussion.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

.... but be locked out of the higher ranks in Solo because the suite of changes

The proposal would only have them come after you if you were actively carrying Powerplay merits, as I understand it - I don't see how they differ from e.g. having a set of Deadly Anacondas come after you if you stack a bunch of BGS missions. (Which they already do in Solo, and which doesn't stop people playing in Solo if they want, though occasionally they do complain about getting shot at)

(I don't see why these NPCs shouldn't also appear in Open, though - plenty of Powerplay systems have too little player traffic to really be an issue there, unless it's got a lot busier)


Though until NPCs get better at interdiction (not just the mini-game, I mean things like "not ramming the star while trying to line up", "being aware that they can't interdict you from the side and not flying full speed at you anyway", "flying ships with enough supercruise agility to catch up if they miss the first time") then "more interdictions" doesn't really solve the problem - the whole interdiction mechanism would need throwing out and redoing for "NPCs intercepting players in supercruise" to ever really be a threat.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It's not - as I made clear in my last post.

Sadly its not clear to me.

.... but be locked out of the higher ranks in Solo because the suite of changes

You are not locked out at all- are you locked out taking a higher ranked mission currently? Are you locked out fighting a Thargoid, or prevented from entering a CZ? No, you are not. The same applies to this proposal- the threat has to be real otherwise it can't be an obstacle.

No issue with NPCs keeping players on their toes - how they do so and at what challenge level is at the core of the discussion.

If you can ignore an NPC, its not doing its job. Engineering and using whats available (exotic weapons for example) would make them something to fear and alter how you play.

The numbers of engineering capable players is only going to increase (especially with Odyssey) so it makes little sense advocating for a non-engineering route to make NPCs more dangerous. I mean, ATR are present across all editions of the game right now and feature G5 engineering plus weapons we can't have.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The proposal would only have them come after you if you were actively carrying Powerplay merits, as I understand it - I don't see how they differ from e.g. having a set of Deadly Anacondas come after you if you stack a bunch of BGS missions. (Which they already do in Solo, and which doesn't stop people playing in Solo if they want, though occasionally they do complain about getting shot at)

No issue at all with Deadly Anacondas - noting that, from memory, they don't seem to pack engineered weapons / modules / etc..

Though until NPCs get better at interdiction (not just the mini-game, I mean things like "not ramming the star while trying to line up", "being aware that they can't interdict you from the side and not flying full speed at you anyway", "flying ships with enough supercruise agility to catch up if they miss the first time") then "more interdictions" doesn't really solve the problem - the whole interdiction mechanism would need throwing out and redoing for "NPCs intercepting players in supercruise" to ever really be a threat.

Possibly - however, as I expect that the challenge posed by NPC interdictions was consciously set at the level we have at the moment, I doubt it would be made much more challenging - noting that two paths to Elite rank don't require the player to fire a shot in combat, much less fly a ship capable of surviving it.

 

[Brrokk]

Powerplay is split into two distinct phases: a collection phase and delivery phase- combat powers destroy specific ships and hauling powers collect specific cargo.

The delivery phase (i.e. traveling about) poses no NPC threat- which means near 100% efficiency and a predictable outcome.

While Open has other players with powerful ships, solo has no NPCs actively pushing back. Interdictions are currently mild, and drop zones around stations are so small no rival Power NPC can approach or attack.

Idea:

Taking elements already in game (spec ops, engineering, interdictions, Powewrplay rank and Powerplay merit count) you introduce targeted interdictions to pose a challenge and disrupt routine travel- after all, Powers are rival gangs and are hostile to each other (bar certain exemptions).

A targeted interdiction is when a player gets pursued by increasingly powerful ships based on merits generated and rank for that cycle.

Rank selects how difficult your opposition will be:

Rank 1: no engineering

Rank 2: (up to) G1 engineering

Rank 3: up to G3 engineering

Rank 4: up to G4 engineering

Rank 5: up to G5 engineering

Merit count dictates how often these NPCs will spawn (mixed with RNG). This would also influence wing size.

Thus NPC resistance only increases with participation- and that at a high level of rank and merit count it makes co-operation in PG or Open more important.

In game:

Players will get messages from their power, for example "enemy agents have noted your presence, they have sent their best to kill you". This in turn would spawn roving wings that would act like hostile security (i.e. they would be red on the radar HUD, and chase you).

I don't PP, but the way I see it this is a well worked-out suggestion for improving the challenge it offers, avoiding the frequently seen "make people do it in Open" thing. Therefore I find it a bit depressing that some dive in with another modes argument.

Come on people, Hotel California isn't really that much fun, and as a bystander even I can see that PP has flaws which the OP suggestion might address. How about discussing the suggestion instead of riding hobbyhorses?

 

[Rubbernuke]

The proposal would only have them come after you if you were actively carrying Powerplay merits, as I understand it - I don't see how they differ from e.g. having a set of Deadly Anacondas come after you if you stack a bunch of BGS missions. (Which they already do in Solo, and which doesn't stop people playing in Solo if they want, though occasionally they do complain about getting shot at)

(I don't see why these NPCs shouldn't also appear in Open, though - plenty of Powerplay systems have too little player traffic to really be an issue there, unless it's got a lot busier)


Though until NPCs get better at interdiction (not just the mini-game, I mean things like "not ramming the star while trying to line up", "being aware that they can't interdict you from the side and not flying full speed at you anyway", "flying ships with enough supercruise agility to catch up if they miss the first time") then "more interdictions" doesn't really solve the problem - the whole interdiction mechanism would need throwing out and redoing for "NPCs intercepting players in supercruise" to ever really be a threat.

What I'd love to see is this really:

Please scale station drop zones according to BGS criteria

Currently station drop zones are tiny - you drop inside them and are instantly protected by the stations guns. This totally negates the 'no mans land' that exists around the station and the gameplay it would generate- for example Powerplay NPCs and players could attack in this space, pirates...

forums.frontier.co.uk

Interdictions are an overused crutch, but for Powerplay they are the only real way to disrupt hauling and general travel. My idea in the suggestion is good because targeted interdictions also covers bounty hunter like behaviour so PP NPCs pop up whereever you go- so a combat expansion might see some, you flying about hauling too.

Scaling is based on merits held, but on reflection I'd like merits held and handed in to reflect difficulty- in the end if you are doing escalating amounts work for your power I'd consider it logical you'd be targeted to a corresponding level.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I don't PP, but the way I see it this is a well worked-out suggestion for improving the challenge it offers, avoiding the frequently seen "make people do it in Open" thing. Therefore I find it a bit depressing that some dive in with another modes argument.

Come on people, Hotel California isn't really that much fun, and as a bystander even I can see that PP has flaws which the OP suggestion might address. How about discussing the suggestion instead of riding hobbyhorses?

The "make it more difficult for those in modes other than Open" seems to be a fallback position as "Open only" doesn't seem to be happening.

It can be looked on as a "make them play the way I want them to" proposal in a game where we are free to play the way we want to.

Hotel California exists because some players can't accept that other players don't need to play with them to engage in the game's features, which means that players can't set the level of challenge for other players - that one's been trundling along for well over seven years now with no sign of stopping.

 

[Northpin]

Well, this disregards a simple fact:
For pvp-ers, the PVE pose no challenge.
For pve-ers, the PVE seems to be challenging enough...

Maybe it's a reason that all the calls for harder NPC are coming from the PVP micro-neighborhood and none from the PVE side.

If people that demand harder NPC would fly for a month non-engineered ships... If only.
Think of the children less-than-pro players

 

[Ian Doncaster]

No issue at all with Deadly Anacondas - noting that, from memory, they don't seem to pack engineered weapons / modules / etc..

They don't have weapon experimentals (which in practice are more for intimidation than effect on the NPCs which do have them), but NPCs Dangerous and above can have low-level engineering. It's just difficult to tell exactly how much.

Possibly - however, as I expect that the challenge posed by NPC interdictions was consciously set at the level we have at the moment, I doubt it would be made much more challenging - noting that two paths to Elite rank don't require the player to fire a shot in combat, much less fly a ship capable of surviving it.

All four Elite ranks can be obtained without firing a shot / owning a survivable ship, in theory, though Combat and CQC would be incredibly slow and painful to get that way, but given that Frontier drops pirates into rings, sends them after players in supercruise, adds them as mission wrinkles, etc. there's certainly an intention - as there was in the three previous games - that trading requires at least some active avoidance of hostile ships (and really, the previous games didn't give you much choice about shooting them).

(Exploration, sure, fair enough)

Well, this disregards a simple fact:
For pvp-ers, the PVE pose no challenge.
For pve-ers, the PVE seems to be challenging enough...

Sure, but the question is really about whether Powerplay is a "beginner activity" or an "expert activity".

Thargoids and High CZs are too dangerous for beginners, and that's fine because they're for experts. Powerplay hauling is actually less dangerous than BGS/trade hauling because the Power NPCs are so weak, which seems somewhat odd.

 

[Northpin]

Sure, but the question is really about whether Powerplay is a "beginner activity" or an "expert activity".

Thargoids and High CZs are too dangerous for beginners, and that's fine because they're for experts. Powerplay hauling is actually less dangerous than BGS/trade hauling because the Power NPCs are so weak, which seems somewhat odd.

... odd or intended.

If they make the "fill this bucket" a hard endeavour, then someone less skilled/equipped what is supposed to do? They cant really go in a PP CZ, do they?

 

[Robert Maynard]

They don't have weapon experimentals (which in practice are more for intimidation than effect on the NPCs which do have them), but NPCs Dangerous and above can have low-level engineering. It's just difficult to tell exactly how much.

Thanks, for the clarification ID. Sounds like a very few general purpose NPCs have even as much a low level engineering then.

All four Elite ranks can be obtained without firing a shot / owning a survivable ship, in theory, though Combat and CQC would be incredibly slow and painful to get that way, but given that Frontier drops pirates into rings, sends them after players in supercruise, adds them as mission wrinkles, etc. there's certainly an intention - as there was in the three previous games - that trading requires at least some active avoidance of hostile ships (and really, the previous games didn't give you much choice about shooting them).

(Exploration, sure, fair enough)

In the previous games there was only ever one Elite rank - combat. This game turned that on its head with the addition of Exploration and Trade - with Xeno-Biologist being added in Odyssey. Which may explain why there's less of requirement to engage in combat in this iteration of the series.

 

[Tifu]

Getting a bit confused by the crosstalk so I just want to get this clear.

The proposal would throw engineered NPC ships which belong to an opposing PP superpower faction if:

1. You are pledged to a PP superpower faction.

2. You are playing in PG or solo mode.

3. The deadliness of the NPC scales up as your PP ranking goes up.

Did I get it right?

 

[Ian Doncaster]

... odd or intended.

If they make the "fill this bucket" a hard endeavour, then someone less skilled/equipped what is supposed to do? They cant really go in a PP CZ, do they?

Sure, which means Powerplay is intended as a beginner activity, then.

But it's horribly unsuited for being a beginner activity, because it costs significant money to participate in, a naive PP merit action is usually actively bad for the power, it makes you a valid PvP target in large parts of space, and the rewards are trivial by the standards of almost anything else.

If it's supposed to be a beginner activity, it needs a complete rewrite to make it actually beginner-friendly beyond "well, the NPCs don't really try to shoot you". If it's supposed to be an expert activity, it also needs a complete rewrite, but in a very different way. (Sandro's proposals suggested that he, at least, thought it was supposed to be an expert activity, not that that should stop Frontier making a proper beginner-friendly rewrite of it instead if they wanted to go that way)

 

[Northpin]

If it's supposed to be an expert activity then so be it... but all the changes should apply on all modes equally.
After all, the modes are nothing else than a way to filter people out. And it's the reason I'm (and probably many others) opposing to any "mode-only" changes

 

[GloatingSwine]

Getting a bit confused by the crosstalk so I just want to get this clear.

The proposal would throw engineered NPC ships which belong to an opposing PP superpower faction if:

1. You are pledged to a PP superpower faction.

2. You are playing in PG or solo mode.

3. The deadliness of the NPC scales up as your PP ranking goes up.

Did I get it right?

I think it's supposed to be

1. You are pledged to a PP faction.

2. You have current PP merits.

3. Threat scales with merits.

It would be active in all modes (because the playerbase is sufficiently spread out that you barely encounter anyone in open, so being pledged and carrying merits doesn't feel different to not doing so anyway.

The main problem I see with it is that in basically everything except a type 9 that was parked when you started, NPC interdictions are trivial to defeat. So it's not really a way to make Powerplay dangerous, just a bit more annoying.

And that's a problem that's difficult to solve because there's a limit to how good you can make the AI be at interdicting. Like in theory it could be perfect every time because it's the AI and not limited by human ability, but because everyone knows that if it is perfect it doesn't feel like the player is in a contest with it, they either have a ship able to escape every time or never depending on what they fly.

Edit: It also means that the primary determinant of how smoothly you can do Powerplay isn't your level of skill or engineering, it's the base supercruise agility of the ship you choose to do it in, which you can't actually change or progress it's inherent to the ship.

 

[Tifu]

The main problem I see with it is that in basically everything except a type 9 that was parked when you started, NPC interdictions are trivial to defeat. So it's not really a way to make Powerplay dangerous, just a bit more annoying.

And that's a problem that's difficult to solve because there's a limit to how good you can make the AI be at interdicting. Like in theory it could be perfect every time because it's the AI and not limited by human ability, but because everyone knows that if it is perfect it doesn't feel like the player is in a contest with it, they either have a ship able to escape every time or never depending on what they fly.

Thanks for the clarification

I agree about NPCs being just an annoyance. Even if NPC ships have FSD modules engineered for the wide angle mod - it'll just slow the haulers down. In a close fight like the recent Imperial-Fed tussle over Mbambiva it could be a factor but otherwise...