My new player experience (262 hours of play time) - It doesn't have to be this way

There's plenty to like about ED, and "not being Eve" is certainly not one of its problems.
But it has problems - they all fall into one category though, that of the game saying "screw you, play more". I mean, while the game has added more convenience features like SCO drives to avoid the insane tedium of long flights, there's plenty that need updating too. Such as:

exobiology data being lost on death. Why? There's no reason to do this except to annoy you. You keep materials, why not data? You spend a long time on a somewhat frustrating gameplay loop only to die and be told "tough, do it again sucker". There's no trip computer on the SRV so you can't see how far you've gone to the next plant. Why? So the game can laugh at you as you get out to scan a plant only for it to tell you "too bad, you didn't go far enough". When the game refuses to tell you how far you've gone. Why - to create a false engagement of wasting your time on crappy bits.

Why does player convenience features like the autopilots take up slots? So you have to choose between convenience for you as a player, and ship builds. There's literally no sane reason to do this except to annoy the player and create a false sense of engagement again.

Why does cargo carry with the player and not the ship? The game obviously wants us to try different ships and builds, yet then makes moving between them a painful experience. I've even travelled in a shuttle to my mining ship for a bit of mining that I wanted to do, for fun, only to be told I coulnd't get in the ship because my other one had cargo in it (ie limpets) so too bad - the game laughs at me and says I can't play. Even switching ships at the same place switches cargo, which again was a "screw you" moment as the corrosive item I had in my main ship suddenly appeared in my non-resistant ship's cargo bay to burn it up. Again, the game tells me I cannot play because it hates me.

And limpets - why do they take up cargo space, and are not reusable like ammo or fighters? Because the game designer has this idea that gameplay requires you to be forced to make build choices that restrict your gameplay. You want to do some salvage or rescue, well, you have to equip the right limpet controller that is dedicated to that. Which generally means you never do it, because rescue/salvage tends to be something you'd do as a side thing. But in order to do it you have to be dedicated to the task. So nobody really does it. that choice of specialised limpet controllers serves only 1 outcome: saying "screw you player, you cannot have fun". I'd like to do some of that gameplay loops occasionally, but because I don't have these limpet controllers all the time, I can't. Hence, again, the game limits you and says "no".

Why even are limpets held as cargo? Why can't they put themselves back in the cargo bay they came out of? Why do you need to go into a sub menu of a sub menu and click buy/sell limpets (note, doesn't even tell you how many you have so you have to click click click through to find out) in order to buy some, and cannot then restock in a single click. Because the game loves making life hard for you to limit your experience.
Imagine if all limpet controllers could do all tasks, and had a reusable number of limpets in the controller module, and the size and class of controller determined the number of limpets available. Then the game would be better, there's no need to limit players to do only certain tasks when the game design shoudl be all about making all gameplay loops as available as possible. Sure you may specialise between tdae or combat, but limpets are not a dedicated task build. Instead, artificial limitations are imposed solely to make bad design into the gameplay itself.

Why do you have to get out of your ship and walk all the way to the concourse to get odyssey missions? Why is there not a terminal on the hanger lobby where the lifts are? Becuase the game wants to make this time-wasting travel to the concourse part of the gameplay experience, to drag it out as much as possible. Of course I can hand in odyssey missions on the main ship screen... so why is the odyssey terminal missions not even on the same ship mission panel that I can hand them in on?

Why even do we not have a button for supercruise assist? Because the same design philosophy exists that says if its convenient to you, then its no good. You have to suffer to play, because that creates some braindead idea of gameplay. Message to game designer - scrollng through a long list to find the barely highlighted target to use the damn feature I spent a slot on is not good design.

The game should be emphasising the good, fun parts and minimising the friction to being able to play those parts. It tries very hard to do the opposite, for no good reason. So whilst I enjoy the game overall, these design "features" actively make me want to play something else every time I open it up. Its a shame, so my "new player experience" of 3 weeks now, is full of joy at the good bits and head-shaking, and some serious tutting, at the design parts that try hard to deny you that enjoyment.

My ultimate new player experience is that every time I think of playing, something in my head says "why? it hates you" and I can feel that one day I will simply agree with it and stop playing. Probably never to come back. And that would be a shame.
 
To be honest, I have absolutely no idea why I like ED and why I keep playing it actively almost every day, and have been doing so for two years now.

This is because I don't really like "endless" games, games that don't have a clear "main quest" line and a a clear ending to the story. I mean, there are some endless games (say, for example, Cities Skylines) that I have played for something like 10-20 hours, but eventually I always get tired of them. And even in the case of the most enjoyable such games I usually get tired of them much sooner than with many of the best storyline-based games that have an ending.

When I purchased ED on the PlayStation 4, just for the sake of it, I fully expected to play it something like 10 hours, perhaps 20 at most. Yet here I am, several thousands of hours of gameplay behind me, and still actively playing. And this is literally the only game I have ever played even close to this long (I think my second-longest might be in the low hundreds of hours.)

And to be completely honest, for the life of me I couldn't explain to you why. Why from all the games I have ever played, particularly of the "endless" kind, why this one and none of the others? It just ticks the right buttons for me, somehow. It just does the right things... right.

On a side note (ie. not the main reason why I still keep playing the game), one of the things I appreciate about ED is the very minimalistic design when it comes to tutorials.

Over the decades, particularly in the last 5-10 years, I have grown to absolutely hate excessive amounts of tutorials in games. I particularly detest an excessive amount of forced tutorials in the form of consecutive text boxes that interrupt your gameplay. I also detest the excessive amount of tutorials (that seem to be particularly common in certain sub-genres of JRPGs) that explain absolute trivialities. Like "press this button to go back to the previous menu". Sigh. In the worst cases, after the 10th-or-so tutorial textbox pops up on screen explaining trivialities, I usually just start spamming the "ok" button without even reading anything. If the game isn't playable without having to read two dozen tutorial textboxes, then I don't really even want to play such a game. It's an indication of a badly designed game.

ED, on the other hand, is notorious for its lack of player hand-holding. It explains very little. It literally took me over a year to understand every detail of a ship's dashboard because the game doesn't explain it (or, at least, it hasn't shoved me the explanation onto my face.) And as unintuitive as that might sound, I actually like that. I like how it has been designed so that you can still play the game without understanding every single intricate detail of the ship's dashboard, but once you figure out what something means or does, it gives you a sense of accomplishment, of having actually deduced something for yourself and learned it that way.

Of course sometimes this lack of on-your-face tutorials means that you have to look up things online, or else you'll never figure them out. But that's ok too. That actually increases the social aspect of the game, and player interaction. People figuring out things for themselves and writing tutorials or tools for those things.
 
I was just flying around building things and I expected at least SOME danger in a game with "Dangerous" in the title. Heck, my standards for PVP are low. I expected to maybe see somebody else doing something interesting? Some emergent gameplay maybe?
Ironic that you decided to skip engineering. Had you actually decided to work on that you'd have been up to your eyeballs in emergent gameplay once you decided to engineer your FSDs at Felicity's place...
 
  • 2015:
    1. "Hey man, what's that game. Is it like EVE Online? I'll give it a try."
    2. "Cool we made lots of money trading. Did it actually matter though? Does it get used to build anything or is it just something to waste my time? Oh... well can you attack starports or cut off trade routes or actually affect anything? No. Meh..."
  • 2025:
    1. "It's been 10 years since I last tried Elite Dangerous. Let's see what it's like now. COLONIZATION!?!?!?! IT JUST CAME OUT LAST MONTH!?!?!?!? LET'S GOOOOOOOOOO!"
    2. Mining for money. Easy.
    3. Type-9. Find a system. "Cool I got a semi-rare star with lots of places to build."
    4. Hauling. zzzzzzzzzz
    5. "Well that sucked but at least it's done. Now what else can I build? There's no steel near me so let's do a refinery and some extraction facilities."
    6. Refinery done. Surface military outpost for more security. Nice! Can't land at the refinery though. Also the extraction facility (near a red dwarf with metal rings) construction pad is inside the red dwarf influence. Can't get to it. Ok... beta.
    7. Extraction around a small gas giant with metal rings. "Ok cool. Done. Wait... I left the system and came back and it isn't completing. And the construction yard is still there? Oh well."
    8. Try to build an agriculture facility around a moon in co-orbit with another moon. Can't land with any ship. It's moving too fast. Not even turning off flight assist works.
    9. "Is anybody else running into this? How am I supposed to make this refinery work so I can land there?" (Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSuzxnuOdLg) "Oh it's totally broken. Well great. I'll wait until it gets fixed before building anything else."
    10. "I guess I'll explore around and do some combat." Saw a neutron star and a black hole. Probably the most fun I've had this whole game.
    11. "Let's try Powerplay!!!!!" Had some success. "Nice, but... any epic battles against players? In fact, are any of these other ships even players? Oh..." Apparently I've never seen another player in this game. "Ehh.... I like the different characters and stuff but I'm not grinding just so I can turn some triangles from one color to another on the map if it doesn't actually do anything meaningful."
    12. "Ok well let's go fight in one of those civil wars I saw on the map once." (A few moments later...) "Good god these guys take a lot of shots. I'm not really affecting anything at all. I must be doing something wrong. Let me go watch a combat guide...
    13. "Oh... I guess I need to do engineering. Let's figure out what that is. (One minute later) "Yeah no way, I'm not doing some galactic where's Waldo scavenger hunt" (Note: It has no impact on the galaxy or other players or the story or anything other than my ship capabilities. It's literally just a time sink for a game that isn't even paid for monthly. THERE'S NO REASON FOR YOU TO WASTE MY TIME JUMPING AROUND THE GALAXY NOT INTERACTING WITH OTHER PLAYERS. !!!!! WHO DESIGNED THIS ?!?!?!?!)
    14. "Well what do I do now?" ... look around the map "Hey cool that extraction facility back in my colony is finished. Let's go see what it does."
    15. "Oh it does nothing. I can't land at it either. I swear it said medium landing pads in the description. Also why is it an Industrial Facility? Not extraction?" (Bug I guess)
    16. BEEP BEEP BEEP! ALERT! THE FACILITY IS UNDER ATTACK WE NEED YOUR HELP! "Yeah! Dynamic event!" Eventually I figured out how to respond in the chat menu.
    17. I throw everything I have at them but barely get their shields down before they destroy 10/10 of the plasma cells or whatever. They jump away. "Engineering... why???????????? Well did they actually affect anything? Can't tell by looking at the stats on the facility. Oh well I guess it didn't matter."
    18. "Yeah this isn't working. I think I'm done. Everything in this game is a grind or a dead end. I'll log out in my colony station. Maybe it will still be here in 10 years when I try again.
    19. I fly back to the little outpost station that took me forever to build. Docking request denied. "Sometimes there's a slow ship taking off the only medium pad. No big deal. It'll be 30s at most."
    20. A Krait with a wanted tag lands on the pad and sits there for over a minute.
    21. I shoot the Krait. It's wanted right? I'll just pay the fine. No damage. "You can't damage ships sitting vulnerable on a pad in this game? Come on...."
    22. "What if I shoot the outpost?" <dies> "lol"
    23. "Well I'm 14 jumps away getting out of a prison. Let's disembark maybe the station is different than all the other stations."
    24. "Oh cool it is different! And there are some prison cells." Walks back to the ship. "Wait... nah what am I going home for?" Back into the prison cell. Close the door. Exit to desktop. Uninstall.
My experience wasn't that bad. There are far worse space games. What hurts the most is that this game has so much potential. So much low-hanging fruit. And all the developer effort put into this game is just to make more grind (Engineering, Powerplay, and maybe Thargoids although I never tried them).

This isn't a subscription game. You don't need to give me a grind to keep me chasing the end game so I keep paying monthly. Let the players make the game fun for you. Let them make their own powerplay. Just give them some simple trade, resource, territorial, and political tools to make all that happen themselves. Sure, give them some characters or something to champion, but you don't need to build a grind system for them. Let them blow up each other's stuff and fight over who controls the galaxy.

Speaking of blowing each other up. Where is everybody? I played open the whole time and maybe I saw a player once near the end when I went to Achenar. Are you all hiding in solo mode? Why does an "MMO" even have a solo mode? What is this game? Who is in charge here? How does a game have so many really awesome little things in it and then also just so many confusingly terrible things in it?

It's soooo sad that it's been 10 years and this game hasn't built on any of the things that made it so hypeable back in 2015. Also forget these Thargoids. There are no aliens. Humans only. Let us fight eachother in space. It's what humans do. I don't need some elaborate alien civilization backstory. I just want to defeat enemies for the Empire and expand humanity to Sagittarius A.

See you all in another 10 years. It was... sorta fun?
Have you considered playing Eve Online? I hear it's absolutely up your street! :p

Sarcasm aside, it appears ED isn't your sort of game. Thanks for (briefly) joining us and thanks for provoking this discussion. However, judging by the replies, the players who seem to make up the majority around here aren't keen on your ideas and seem to refute your criticism of key game features. Elite's going through something of a renaissance at the moment, I'd say that what the team are doing sems to scratch that itch for a lot of players. As a Frontier shareholder that's music to my ears! As a fellow player I'm just glad that they're enjoying themselves as much as I am. I'm not keen on Frontier changing this new course they're on while they're making so many players (myself included) happy with their product- happier than many of us have been in years.

If there's any chance of our beloved game becoming 'Eve with cockpits' I'll join an exodus away from it. I don't think Frontier would have much luck attracting alternative players to replace us- they're already busy playing Eve!

Just as an aside, I think you've missed some of the depth of gameplay available. There are a gazillion 'miles wide, inch deep' threads on here and they all seem to be started by people who're unaware of the consequences of their actions in game. The background simulation is player controlled, but most players aren't aware of the fact, or simply don't care. It's possible for relatively small groups of players, or even individuals, to sculpt- or wreck!- the local economy or political landscape in any part of inhabited space. It doesn't require vast fleets of simulated warships, but it's no less satisfying to successfully pull the strings and achieve your Machiavellian aims by running a multitude of different game loops. It's not for everyone, but I find it far more satisfying to actually fly the kind of activities that can pull a system into a boom state, or trash it's economy, or even start a war, than to pore over spreadsheets Eve style, engaging in point and click manoeuvrers to get my fleet to where they need to be. There's nothing wrong with that style of play, Eve's a very popular game, but it's not for me.

It's as if we're all looking at a camel. You're getting upset that it's not a horse, whereas the Elite players are busy appreciating the different qualities enjoyed by Dromedaries and Bactrians. ;)
 
Is this the right time to do the "space is big" spiel?

Apart from that, the first misconception is that Elite is an MMO comparable to tradtional MMOs. Ask me, it isn't one in the first place, it is a space game with a shared universe and optional multiplayer, and placing it against traditional MMOs by using "massively multiplayer space epic" might have been a mistake.

Tying into that, it's also a misconception that gameplay is player driven in any way. It isn't, this isn't EVE. If you expected EVE with cockpits, it is understandable you are disappointed.
It’s never the right time to do that spiel IMO since we have to travel at incomprehensibly fast speeds/ long distances to get things done, say, in around the time it takes to go to the chemist’s vs not being able to get much farther than our solar system within the span of our lifetimes.
 
It might be that the developers set out to just make a fancy looking version of the 1980s game, and multiplayer was an afterthought.
It's more subtle than that.

They set out to make a fancy version of the 1980s game (or more precisely, the 90s sequels to it) but this time multiplayer.

Multiplayer wasn't an afterthought in 2012 - it was the whole point of doing it, and large numbers of game systems are designed in ways which would have been unnecessarily complex for a single-player game - but it wasn't even a thought of any type in 1984/1992/1995, so the early design ends up with this massive tension [1] between making it recognisably a sequel to those games, and also making it multiplayer, and also as the company's first real multiplayer game (and certainly first MMO-like).

Some of the design issues that caused they've managed to largely fix since.
Some of them are sufficiently baked-in as to be impossible to fix and the best they can do is at least be consistent about them.

On the other hand, virtually no-one else is trying to make multiplayer spaceship games at all, and even fewer are succeeding (because it's really difficult!), so "it mostly works most of the time" ends up a fair amount in ED's favour. For any individual ED feature you can almost certainly find at least one game which does it better. But it'll do that feature better by not doing at all half the other things ED does.


[1] An easy example: as you noticed, you virtually never meet another player. That's primarily because the galaxy is the size of the galaxy, containing star systems the size of a star system, but there's only maybe 5-digit numbers of players online at once. So the average player population of a system at any given time is essentially zero, and even for the inhabited bubble which focuses activity a lot it's still quite a bit less than 1, and even if there happens to be another player in the system at the same time as you there's perhaps 30-40 other "obvious" locations they could be in plus unimaginably many cubic kilometres of empty space or planet surface and you still might never see them.

But why is the bubble so large? It's because this a sequel to the 1995 Frontier: First Encounters, which had superpower capitals at Sol, Achenar and Alioth. And if you put those in their astronomically realistic places (because that was one of the other design goals) and then make a roughly spherical inhabited region around them, it ends up being that big. And that was prioritised over making it "small enough that people might meet up" not because multiplayer was an afterthought but because the Frontier of 2012 didn't realise it needed to run the numbers on that.

There are a gazillion 'miles wide, inch deep' threads on here and they all seem to be started by people who're unaware of the consequences of their actions in game.
It's one of the interesting things about ED that it has huge amounts of depth, carefully positioned so no-one has to be bothered by it because it doesn't noticeably affect the actual gameplay (and people will complain it's a bug when it occasionally does).

The economic simulation which governs exactly what commodities a station sells and buys, for what prices and in what quantities and how quickly it returns to equilibrium after a player trades there is hugely complex. Abstracted, yes - it's not the "track every barrel" of the X series - but a basic question such as "how much Clothing can I expect to get out of a station" is not a quick one to answer. And until very recently, >99% of the time a player didn't have to care about that in the slightest, because a crowdsourced database of current prices would get a good enough answer to "where can I trade profitably", so how it worked behind the scenes was irrelevant.

It's gained slightly more relevance with colonisation because suddenly lots of people are starting to notice that mixed-economy stations don't work anything like their "intuition" formed by paying no attention for the last decade said they "should". But even then it's possible to sum up what you actually need to know in a sentence or two and go back to ignoring the rest of it.
 
So the average player population of a system at any given time is essentially zero…
“It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.”

- Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

😝
 
So I went and played some different space games this past week.
  • Star Citizen - I backed it in 2012 but didn't bother with it until now specifically because I wanted to compare the experience to Elite. I was waiting for 1.0 to even pay attention but curiosity got he better of me.
  • EVE Online - Of course.
  • Stellaris - "What? That's a 4X strategy game how is it even remotely related to Elite?", you might say. Calm down I'll explain and you won't get it, but that's ok.
Star Citizen
First, Star Citizen gets a pass on a lot of things because its scope was set in 2012 and it never planned to have more than 100 star systems (probably more like 10 or something?). Even then, it has suffered from massive scope creep as a project because Chris Roberts is insane. If he manages to pull it off in 20 years when the game comes out, it will be awesome, but nothing compared to what Elite could be. Star Citizen goes very micro and focuses on the minute details of everything. "Space Second Life" they call it. It's an exceptionally hand-crafted experience and that was always the plan.

That kind of game has its place, but Elite's advantage is 300B+ star systems with an appropriate level of detail. Then FDev ignored that advantage, chased after Star Citizen, and bolted on a sub-par FPS experience. The Elite FPS experience is basically the same as the ship-based experience, but in an FPS environment. You do exactly the same things, but on foot. Meh. With colonization, Elite is finally taking advantage of its appropriate scale to let players build the world themselves. Great! Colonization is awesome even if it's currently broken. Letting players do the hand-crafting themselves is part of the fun and FDev should have realized that a decade ago rather than bolting on more sub-par hand-crafted features themselves.

Ultimately Star Citizen has a very long way to go before it will be any good (if it ever even gets there). However, unlike Elite, what was the first thing I encountered after I entered the game and went down the elevator? PLAYERS! Not 1, not 2, but 3 players within the first 5 minutes and I was able to interact with them immediately over proximity-based voice chat. Yes, yes I know galaxy size and so on... I understand. But Elite does not leverage its good qualities to encourage or facilitate player interaction of any type, so even when I explored systems with lots of carriers or where player activity appeared to be taking place, I saw nobody. I saw one player in Achenar once. That's it. Elite can do better without sacrificing any of the good qualities that we all love. Just dare to imagine and definitely don't chase after Star Citizen and not intended to have the scale or scope that Elite does. Having said that, why does Star Citizen have 4 times the active player count that Elite does? And how the heck is it still pulling in $100M per year in crowd funding at this point? Could it be that despite the game being buggy as heck and 90% incomplete, players actually can interact with each other and that creates compelling experiences that people will throw their money at? That $800M should have come to Elite to support making a grand space multiplayer experience, but FDev dropped the ball. Dare to dream, FDev.

EVE Online
Many people in this thread ask why compare Elite to EVE? Well... I'll tell you. EVE is a multiplayer space game released in 2003 with engineering constraints that existed in 2003. It achieved a grand scope for the time and was heavily rewarded for that. Elite is a multiplayer space game released in 2014 with engineering constraints that existed in 2014. It achieved a grand scope for the time and was heavily rewarded for that. They share similar audiences, but not the same audience (clearly). Many of the in-game activities are the same. Mining, exploring, trading, hauling, PvE.

The key difference between them is that EVE built systems that strongly encouraged player interaction (to a fault), and Elite did not. The best things about EVE are the same things that cause most people prefer to read about it online and never play. There are almost no guardrails, but 90% of the compelling gameplay comes from the outer rim of systems where there are no guardrails at all. The solution to that is to quit your job and dedicate your life to EVE, which is simply not accessible to most people. Despite that, it has 2x the active player base even though the core game requires a subscription to play.

I don't want Elite to be EVE even though I've been accused of that here. I simply see that Elite has all the pieces in place to encourage player interaction and allow player-driven creation of events or artifacts in the galaxy, just like EVE. FDev simply choose not to capitalize on that until now with colonization. One small step for FDev (even if fumbling), one giant leap for Elite players.

Again. Elite should never be EVE online. What it should be, however, is a game where players can have a real impact on the galaxy, the economy, faction interactions, faction goals, faction strategy, colonization, resource abundance or scacity, etc. Yes yes "BGS" I hear you say. Despite the BGS being the most compelling part of this game, it misses that one key component I keep coming back to; player interaction. Players in Elite don't interact with each other. They interact with the BGS. That's fun, but it could be so much more. Tell me what aspect of Elite goes away by adopting and embracing these things? Nothing. It's the same game on steroids.

Here are some ideas, admittedly with many kinks that need working out but some ideas worth considering:
  • Let players drive SOME faction decisions and relations for both major and minor factions. Remove the reputation cap and allow players with the highest reputation to have some controls over faction priorities, goals, events, and other BGS-related things. Maybe players get to vote or depose faction leaders depending on their government type (democracy, corporation, dictatorship, patronage, etc). Or if pirate/smuggler players flip a system to anarchy then nobody is in charge and chaos ensues? Now that sounds fun. There's a small amount of this already in place with squad factions. Take it up a notch. Players are SO HUNGRY for this kind of thing they are already doing it outside of the gameplay mechanics. For example, ALD, AD, ZT, Sen Patreus, and YG made an alliance for Power Play. And yet, the game doesn't recognize that at all. People are absolutely starving for this stuff so they have to fake it up outside of the game. And good on them for trying to make it work.
  • Unlike EVE, allow the core of the bubble to be where the action happens. EVE has new player protections in the core of the galaxy, but I actually think that's backwards. It made sense for EVE in 2003 but Elite is so big that if players want safety they should be able to find it in the more remote systems. The BGS already handles system stability so leave that one alone as far as PvE is concerned. Elite already handles new player zones properly too. If I recall, after you leave the tutorial zone you can't go back? Good.
  • Allow starbases or other assets to be destroyed in player-scheduled faction combat events. Compared to EVE, keep combat events slower. Maybe one faction decides to launch a major assault on some infrastructure. Instead of everybody's pagers going off at 3AM (yes this happens in EVE), schedule the event and notify everybody about it. Make the battle take place over several days or weeks, and resolve it when some criteria is met. This is similar to the weekly Power Play tick, but results in more tangible outcomes than "hurray! point go up!". Funily enough, this could be used for Thargoids too. I noticed a Thargoid titan at Sol. How long has it been there? Any way to resolve it? Why not have player actions remove it or something? Seems like it's just there for fun and eventually FDev will see fit to manually change it and advance the story. What if all the factions get together to help out Sol? What if some refuse? Ahhhh... that's where player-driven faction relations come in. INTRIGUE AND DIPLOMACY rather than just wait a few weeks for FDev to do something.
  • Let players trade and enhance the BGS with real resource scarcity. No, loading up your carrier with CM Composites and Titanium is not the same thing. With colonization, players can create assets that acquire these resources, and fulfil demand. Have a player-driven economy, but don't require every unit to come from a player manually mining resources. Let some player-guided NPCs acquire resources instead. And also let players hire haulers (don't tell me you don't want that because I've seen lots of other people requesting this). Have some kind of limit, of course, so that NPC hauling doesn't scale out of control. But after players have gone through trading and mining themselves, let asteroid mining and refining facilities (placed in the appropriate locations) generate the materials and then ALSO let NPCs do some of the hauling. Seriously, how many more times do you guys want to press the J key?

There are more ideas but those are the core ones. Again, colonization looks promising long term.

EVE's galaxy has already been conquered and is nowhere near as big as Elite. That said, I still enjoyed playing it again, and it was tempting to jump back into the full-time experience.

Stellaris
To keep this simple, I played Stellaris to get some of what I was missing from Elite. The major difference is it's managed from a top-down faction leader perspective rather than a bottom-up pilot perspective. Where do we explore? Where do we build this facility? What planet do we colonize? How do we manage relations with this faction next to us? How do we address this resource shortage? Where do we attack? Where do we defend? It's all in Stellaris for the player to decide. Beauty.

Stellaris also makes these things available to player where Elite does not. Yes you can hammer on the BGS in a few ways but the same levers and knobs are not available to the players, which is where Elite falls short.

Summary
The "mile wide and inch deep" people are right. Here's a 9 year old video calling for very similar things that I am. It seems like it keeps coming up over and over and over again. Here is a counter-argument where colonizing the Pleiades to attack the Thargoids counts as "deep". And "the depth won't be found in the code". He's got that right. The game does not give a damn if you colonize the Pleiades and it has no idea why you all went there. You're role-playing. While role-playing is a great substitute for open-ended in-game mechanics, it doesn't make the game deep. It just means the players are deep. Just like the Star Wars Expanded Universe books added a lot of depth even though it didn't change the movies at all. But just imagine if Episodes 7, 8, and 9 took their stories and characters from the Star Wars Expanded Universe books? :cool:

I had fun writing this post and thinking about these things. Long post. I know.

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Why are you comparing Elite to EVE? It's not correct, it's like comparing Civilization to Half-Life, just because the action takes place on Earth. The only thing they have in common is that the action takes place in space. Elite is a first-person pilot simulator, in EVE you don't control the ship yourself, you just give commands.
See my comparison of Stellaris to Elite Dangerous above. ;)


Scale. Elite Dangerous is the only game I know of that actually lets one fly a proper spaceship around the Milky Way at a 1:1 scale. Space Engine is pretty to look at, but has no gameplay, EVE doesn't let you actually fly your ships, and Star Citizen is a mess due to being in development hell for over a decade.
Yes. Indeed the scale of the Elite Dangerous galaxy and the fact that there is so much left to conquer is part of the reason why Elite has so much untapped potential. Also yes the ship controls in Elite are great. Third-person was likely an engineering restriction on EVE. They were REALLY tight on cash before EVE launched. It's a miracle they launched it.


Flight model. With my HOSAS controller setup (what I moved on to since starting with a HOTAS), the complexity of operations, and the choices in modules and engineering, it feels damn close to actually piloting a spacecraft. Each ship feels distinctive in motion. This enhances the experiences of flying and outfitting them.
Yes this is one of the things Elite has going for it. Star Citizen is also good and I like their afterburner system better, but really I don't need to go into the kitchen and make a cup of coffee while waiting to arrive at my next warp destination. Elite has the proper level of detail for space. Star Citizen is way too micro. Fun, but not compelling like Elite could be.

Community. I've had some great times with other players of this game, both online and in meatspace. There are YouTube channels, Discord servers, conventions, and third-party tools and resources that are an excellent supplement to the game itself.
Agreed. I appreciated the tools a lot and enjoy the YT videos from time to time.

There's plenty to like about ED, and "not being Eve" is certainly not one of its problems.
ED not capitalizing on its great core features to add depth and encourage player interaction, however, is one of its problems. EVE capitalized on those aspects in spades.

My ultimate new player experience is that every time I think of playing, something in my head says "why? it hates you" and I can feel that one day I will simply agree with it and stop playing. Probably never to come back. And that would be a shame.
If these stats are correct, almost 20M copes of Elite have been sold. Yet, so few players stick with it. Surprisingly even Star Citizen has a larger and more active player base, and that game is... not ready. Not at all.

Ironic that you decided to skip engineering. Had you actually decided to work on that you'd have been up to your eyeballs in emergent gameplay once you decided to engineer your FSDs at Felicity's place...
Ahhh yes so emergent.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ohRI9a4c1BM



The background simulation is player controlled, but most players aren't aware of the fact, or simply don't care. It's possible for relatively small groups of players, or even individuals, to sculpt- or wreck!- the local economy or political landscape in any part of inhabited space.
Yes I was having fun sculpting the system I colonized, and then realized a lot of things are gated by engineering. Bad game design.

It's as if we're all looking at a camel. You're getting upset that it's not a horse, whereas the Elite players are busy appreciating the different qualities enjoyed by Dromedaries and Bactrians.
Camels are quite entertaining and useful animals. I'm simply suggesting we let it out of its pen. Don't worry, we'll put a harness on it first. We don't want it to run wild like EVE the horse did.

I don't think you do
I probably understand better than 99% of current Elite players at this point. I've enjoyed analyzing this quite a bit including looking back at historical discussions and how FDev reacted to them. Despite FDevs failure to execute, Elite offers some things you can't find anywhere else. And that's why it maintains a small but dedicated player base. It doesn't have to be this way. It could be a large and dedicated player base. I'm sorry that does not interest you.

It's more subtle than that.

They set out to make a fancy version of the 1980s game (or more precisely, the 90s sequels to it) but this time multiplayer.

Multiplayer wasn't an afterthought in 2012 - it was the whole point of doing it, and large numbers of game systems are designed in ways which would have been unnecessarily complex for a single-player game - but it wasn't even a thought of any type in 1984/1992/1995, so the early design ends up with this massive tension [1] between making it recognisably a sequel to those games, and also making it multiplayer, and also as the company's first real multiplayer game (and certainly first MMO-like).
So I have some Elite players in this thread telling me multiplayer was bolted on as an optional experience, and you're telling me the opposite. Which is it? So you're telling me Elite is a multiplayer-first project? Then why has it refused to take advantage of multiplayer capability in any way beyond uploading some data to the shared BGS database?

That's primarily because the galaxy is the size of the galaxy, containing star systems the size of a star system, but there's only maybe 5-digit numbers of players online at once.
Yes and the available activities and incentives in the game currently give me almost no reason to seek them out or interact with them in any way. Otherwise, Achenar might actually be exciting.

OP as you are from.EVE, can I have your stuff?
Yes. You can have it all. Just send me a trade contract asking for all my ships and credits.

Oh wait... there's no player contract system or player trade system of any kind. I can't give you ships (people complain about not being able to help their friends out all the time), and transferring credits to you would be a long system of me dropping bertrandite for you or hauling back and forth to take it to your carrier.

So no. You can't. Because FDev refuses to build systems that facilitate player interaction in any meaningful way.

I think I've made my point. ♥️
 
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I hate how accurate the engineering video is. There's way too much mental gymnastics that goes into justifying grinds that are worse than some korean free to play money treadmills that this game shoves down our throats for no reason.

You can get a character to max level in lost ark and get them geared for endgame raiding in the time it takes to completely engineer one ship from scratch.
 
I hate how accurate the engineering video is. There's way too much mental gymnastics that goes into justifying grinds that are worse than some korean free to play money treadmills that this game shoves down our throats for no reason.

You can get a character to max level in lost ark and get them geared for endgame raiding in the time it takes to completely engineer one ship from scratch.

Also this one.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8U3VKw9gHBc

And this one.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0KvsCyaDxVU

And this one.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/K-BLJ-vRJ_M


All are accurate.
 
Nope. All you need to do is gather some G5 materials from every category and trade them down with a material trader. G5s are really easy to get now. For example one signal source of G5s will completely fill your inventory of that material.
So yes, you not only had materials on hand, but also had material traders unlocked. This is completely against when I said "from scratch". Not every player is sitting on piles of T5's.
 
So yes, you not only had materials on hand, but also had material traders unlocked. This is completely against when I said "from scratch". Not every player is sitting on piles of T5's.
I did not have the G5s on hand. I had to go get them. You can fill up on a single G5 in 15 minutes.

Your "get a character to max level in lost ark" claim is beyond ridiculous.

What do you mean "material traders unlocked"? They don't need to be unlocked.
 
I did not have the G5s on hand. I had to go get them. You can fill up on a single G5 in 15 minutes.

Your "get a character to max level in lost ark" claim is beyond ridiculous.

What do you mean "material traders unlocked"? They don't need to be unlocked.

You can get to max level in lost ark in an evening tho. It's really alt friendly.
 
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