Navigation Computer needed ?

[veryinky]

so you're saying you don't want to fly your space ship in this flying space ships game... Right.

Are you arguing that nobody flew their ships back during Elite 2, Elite First Encounters? Right?

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If the player's ship is destroyed I'm sure a few will contact CS claiming the AP failed and demand a refund of the lost ship. If the player is attentive they still have to watch the "boring" parts, all the AP does is save a few steps with every jump.

So this is what the against side has been reduced to. Can't implement a feature that's been in almost every single Elite game to date because people might contact customer support because of something they did or didn't do. Not because of the Autopilot itself mind you, but heavens to betsy, think of the customers who might whine about something new, let's never implement anything ever again.

 

[MAUXUS]

One of the reasons why they still have pilots on planes is because they have to monitor the autopilot, among other systems and other things. Pilots are supposed to take over if at any time the autopilot does not behave as expected. It would be the same if AP would be implemented in ED. It would be your responsibility to monitor navigation progress and be ready to take over at any time. Are pilots not flying their "ships" too then, when the autopilot is ON?

 

[MahdDogg]

Are you arguing that nobody flew their ships back during Elite 2, Elite First Encounters? Right?

nope.

 

[SatansMittens]

I said I skimmed it the 2nd time; I have read the entire thread and kept up with it since the OP started the thread. Reading comprehension an issue for you?

I was starting to wonder the same about you

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Are you arguing that nobody flew their ships back during Elite 2, Elite First Encounters? Right?

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So this is what the against side has been reduced to. Can't implement a feature that's been in almost every single Elite game to date because people might contact customer support because of something they did or didn't do. Not because of the Autopilot itself mind you, but heavens to betsy, think of the customers who might whine about something new, let's never implement anything ever again.

I didn't say I was against the idea of an AP in game due to this reason, although FD might take it into consideration. They do have to pay those CS people.

I'm against just about any automation in the game due to the slippery slope concerns. I've seen thread after thread complaining about how boring the game is and how "if only FD would add x" the game would be less grindy, or something to that effect. The problem as I see it is adding these QoL items would make the game less "boring" for some until they get bored again and ask for some other QoL thing that is supposed to reduce the boredom again. I think for some of these players they will always find a reason to be bored and will eventually leave. I've seen threads asking for hyperspace jumps directly to a station, mining rigs that you can leave in place and just come back and cash in. Some people would like to have multiple commanders so they can just appear where ever they have a ship. I could go on as there are many other examples.

I guess I just see the game differently than some. I wiped my save and am now back in a SideWinder. Before that all I had was a Cobra Mk III and Mk IV. I have never gotten bored with jumping from system to system or traveling many 1000s of Ls to a system. Every time I jump or am in SC I keep a close eye on any ships and am extremely ready for an interdiction event. If I get interdicted I have to decide if I'll flee or fight. I find no boredom in this game.

Now, I've never been out exploring but even then I don't imagine I'll get bored, for me it will be the exploration and not the jump and honk that seems to bore some players. I don't understand that kind of "exploration", does anyone think that how Magellan or Sir Francis Drake explored? I do plan on waiting until we can land on planets with atmospheres before I seriously get into exploration. When I go exploring I'll probably scan a system and stay there for days if there are landable planets with atmospheres. Then I'll move on to the next closest system.

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I was starting to wonder the same about you

I thought you were going to give up?

 

[Zambrick]

I didn't say I was against the idea of an AP in game due to this reason, although FD might take it into consideration. They do have to pay those CS people.

I'm against just about any automation in the game due to the slippery slope concerns. I've seen thread after thread complaining about how boring the game is and how "if only FD would add x" the game would be less grindy, or something to that effect. The problem as I see it is adding these QoL items would make the game less "boring" for some until they get bored again and ask for some other QoL thing that is supposed to reduce the boredom again. I think for some of these players they will always find a reason to be bored and will eventually leave. I've seen threads asking for hyperspace jumps directly to a station, mining rigs that you can leave in place and just come back and cash in. Some people would like to have multiple commanders so they can just appear where ever they have a ship. I could go on as there are many other examples.

I guess I just see the game differently than some. I wiped my save and am now back in a SideWinder. Before that all I had was a Cobra Mk III and Mk IV. I have never gotten bored with jumping from system to system or traveling many 1000s of Ls to a system. Every time I jump or am in SC I keep a close eye on any ships and am extremely ready for an interdiction event. If I get interdicted I have to decide if I'll flee or fight. I find no boredom in this game.

Now, I've never been out exploring but even then I don't imagine I'll get bored, for me it will be the exploration and not the jump and honk that seems to bore some players. I don't understand that kind of "exploration", does anyone think that how Magellan or Sir Francis Drake explored? I do plan on waiting until we can land on planets with atmospheres before I seriously get into exploration. When I go exploring I'll probably scan a system and stay there for days if there are landable planets with atmospheres. Then I'll move on to the next closest system.

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I thought you were going to give up?

Exploration was never an issue. Especially for an Auto pilot. The issue is flying 2000 to 10000 lys through space that has already been explored several times and holds no real mysteries to be found by anyone. If you are going to a known destination with no intention of scanning or exploring, then an Auto Pilot function makes perfect sense.

Also being an explorer and scientist in this game myself be aware that space crazy is a real thing. Sometimes you have been out there for a month and you couldnt care less if you saw a giant flying toilet seat 10 lys from the bubble. You just have to get home before you lose it. Most of us already do spend several hours if not days in a system just looking around. I highly recommend the exploration life.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

I can only say that I feel it devalues the scale of the Galaxy as it trivialises one of the main mechanics (travel) of the game if there is too much automation. I actually think that travel over such distances to Jacques and the core should be a lot more hazardous and take longer. This is coming from someone that has been to Jacques and the core and sprinted back 22,000lys to the bubble in roughly 8 hours.
It was too easy, it can be done too fast. Travel should be fleshed out more with more dangers, gameplay, maybe the FSD should be only capable of x amount of jumps before a cool down is needed, if the cool down is disregarded then serious damage could be incurred resulting in the need of a planetside excursion for raw materials to fix and an EVA for repair (space legs). The game is still in development with lots of potential for new gameplay and mechanics, automating travel before it can be expanded upon would I believe be a mistake.

I have no problem with the trip to Jacques being 100% harder, you know as well as I do its not hard its just a test of ones endurance and will power to get it done. If that is its purpose fine it's an endurance test make players do it but don't make them repeat it that is not good gameplay and it makes a mockery of a space sim. An autopilot doesn't make the journey easier or faster (in fact you could make it slower) it makes it more enjoyable. I believe you could introduce more danger and longer journey times and FDev could invest more effort as a result of more pilots willing to undertake long journeys. You are not automating travel, you are 'automating the trivial non-skill elements of travel' the skill imho would be you deciding to do it manually and potentially rewarded for doing a better job such as a reduced journey time in much the same way you can dock faster without the docking computer.

 

[SatansMittens]

I.

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I thought you were going to give up?

Yeah, give up explaining the idea presented in the thread. Not give up talking to you entirely.

 

[MAUXUS]

I didn't say I was against the idea of an AP in game due to this reason, although FD might take it into consideration. They do have to pay those CS people.

To be fair, this is something that they have to worry about from day 1 of game release anyway. I don't see much difference if AP is implemented. It's part of their job, right?

I'm against just about any automation in the game due to the slippery slope concerns. I've seen thread after thread complaining about how boring the game is and how "if only FD would add x" the game would be less grindy, or something to that effect. The problem as I see it is adding these QoL items would make the game less "boring" for some until they get bored again and ask for some other QoL thing that is supposed to reduce the boredom again. I think for some of these players they will always find a reason to be bored and will eventually leave. I've seen threads asking for hyperspace jumps directly to a station, mining rigs that you can leave in place and just come back and cash in. Some people would like to have multiple commanders so they can just appear where ever they have a ship. I could go on as there are many other examples.

I see AP as the natural evolution of ED, not as an added feature. It doesn't make sense that in 3302 we can travel as far as Jacques's but we still don't have the choice of using the autopilot. And we are not asking for "hyperspace jumps directly to a station, mining rigs that you can leave in place and just come back and cash in", or that ED makes espressos while en route and delivers them to your home. This thread is about autopilot. And i think that so far it hasn't been implemented yet mostly because of technical limitations, which with 2.2 might have been significantly reduced. AP is the next logical step.

I guess I just see the game differently than some. I wiped my save and am now back in a SideWinder. Before that all I had was a Cobra Mk III and Mk IV. I have never gotten bored with jumping from system to system or traveling many 1000s of Ls to a system. Every time I jump or am in SC I keep a close eye on any ships and am extremely ready for an interdiction event. If I get interdicted I have to decide if I'll flee or fight. I find no boredom in this game.

Great! You have the freedom to play however you like! That's the beauty of it, AP would be a module, which you don't have to equip if you don't want. Why do you want to force others to play the way you want to play and not allow them to have an alternative?

Now, I've never been out exploring but even then I don't imagine I'll get bored...

Do you think it's fair to ask that perhaps you try exploring first and get back to us on this later on? I suggest a "quick" 6500LY trip (+ 6500LY to get back to the bubble), just to get your feet wet. Here is a tested route, with NAV points you can punch directly into the galmap, at this thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/295074-NGC-6820-Nebula-My-route-for-Pailin-Screenie . The reason why there are 7 waypoints is because currently the galmap cannot plot more than 1000LY at a time. Let me know if you have any questions or need help.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

To be fair, this is something that they have to worry about from day 1 of game release anyway. I don't see much difference if AP is implemented. It's part of their job, right?

It is part of their job but I'm sure any game addition that adds to support costs is going to get looked at closely.

I see AP as the natural evolution of ED, not as an added feature. It doesn't make sense that in 3302 we can travel as far as Jacques's but we still don't have the choice of using the autopilot. And we are not asking for "hyperspace jumps directly to a station, mining rigs that you can leave in place and just come back and cash in", or that ED makes espressos while en route and delivers them to your home. This thread is about autopilot. And i think that so far it hasn't been implemented yet mostly because of technical limitations, which with 2.2 might have been significantly reduced. AP is the next logical step.

I understand there can be a difference between some of the QoL items I've mentioned and others have created threads about but where does it stop? At what point does it stop being a game and just a log in and see what you get for a reward?

I doubt it's technical limitations though. We already have NPCs that can fly their own ships, AI to fly your ship or fly SLFs, and docking computers. The AP shouldn't be difficult to implement; I think it's definitely something FD doesn't want and won't implement.

Great! You have the freedom to play however you like! That's the beauty of it, AP would be a module, which you don't have to equip if you don't want. Why do you want to force others to play the way you want to play and not allow them to have an alternative?

I have the freedom to play in the universe that FD develops. If they create an AP module that's their decision and I won't use it; you will be free to. Until that time I reserve to hold the opinion that if I don't want something in the game then it shouldn't be added. That's especially true if I feel, IMO, that it changes the nature of the game or puts additional development and support costs on FD.

Do you think it's fair to ask that perhaps you try exploring first and get back to us on this later on?

No, it's not fair. Autopilot is the idea in this thread and it's implementation is not restricted to exploration, I only mentioned it in passing.

 

[SatansMittens]

It is part of their job but I'm sure any game addition that adds to support costs is going to get looked at closely.



I understand there can be a difference between some of the QoL items I've mentioned and others have created threads about but where does it stop? At what point does it stop being a game and just a log in and see what you get for a reward?

I doubt it's technical limitations though. We already have NPCs that can fly their own ships, AI to fly your ship or fly SLFs, and docking computers. The AP shouldn't be difficult to implement; I think it's definitely something FD doesn't want and won't implement.



I have the freedom to play in the universe that FD develops. If they create an AP module that's their decision and I won't use it; you will be free to. Until that time I reserve to hold the opinion that if I don't want something in the game then it shouldn't be added. That's especially true if I feel, IMO, that it changes the nature of the game or puts additional development and support costs on FD.



No, it's not fair. Autopilot is the idea in this thread and it's implementation is not restricted to exploration, I only mentioned it in passing.

Fair enough...

 

[MAUXUS]

It is part of their job but I'm sure any game addition that adds to support costs is going to get looked at closely.

Again, this is for them to worry about and I don't think of it as a valid reason to oppose asking for the game to evolve. Implementing new things also has the potential to bring in more players and consequently more money, not just more potential "expenses". They have support ppl there anyway to handle requests and just because requests could increase if AP is implemented doesn't necessarily mean that they would have to spend more money/time. So what about 2.2 then? Should they have left the game at 2.1 just because now a lot of ppl will start creating support requests about the new features? By your reasoning then FD should have never started ED because there is too much money to be spent in support requests.

I understand there can be a difference between some of the QoL items I've mentioned and others have created threads about but where does it stop? At what point does it stop being a game and just a log in and see what you get for a reward?

Game development never stops though. When it stops it's most of the times because it was abandoned. You have to give old players new things to keep them interested and new players better things as well, to win them over the competition.

I doubt it's technical limitations though. We already have NPCs that can fly their own ships, AI to fly your ship or fly SLFs, and docking computers. The AP shouldn't be difficult to implement; I think it's definitely something FD doesn't want and won't implement.

Yes, this is possible but it shouldn't be used as an argument to not request something or talk about requesting something...I mean this is non constructive and here we are trying to have a constructive conversation, right?

I have the freedom to play in the universe that FD develops. If they create an AP module that's their decision and I won't use it; you will be free to. Until that time I reserve to hold the opinion that if I don't want something in the game then it shouldn't be added. That's especially true if I feel, IMO, that it changes the nature of the game or puts additional development and support costs on FD.

It wouldn't change the nature of the game as long as you don't install and use that module. In other words, everyone is happy. But if you force me to not consider something just because "you don't think it should be added" then you are forcing your will on mine and this is not a discussion anymore. We are trying to avoid this. And again, let the developers worry about the cost/gain part, considering that a non-evolving game can also cost you in customers (and that's why they have ED 1.5, 2, 2.1, 2.2 etc...)

No, it's not fair. Autopilot is the idea in this thread and it's implementation is not restricted to exploration, I only mentioned it in passing.

Ok, no problem, I understand.

 

[drzdeano]

I've seen threads asking for hyperspace jumps directly to a station, mining rigs that you can leave in place and just come back and cash in.

Then post in those threads, don't argue against points that were never raised here.

And as for the mining rigs. They ask for those because they were in previous elite games. Anyway doesn't sound that bad. It's not worse that the weekly bonus powerplay might give you.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Again, this is for them to worry about and I don't think of it as a valid reason to oppose asking for the game to evolve. Implementing new things also has the potential to bring in more players and consequently more money, not just more potential "expenses". They have support ppl there anyway to handle requests and just because requests could increase if AP is implemented doesn't necessarily mean that they would have to spend more money/time. So what about 2.2 then? Should they have left the game at 2.1 just because now a lot of ppl will start creating support requests about the new features? By your reasoning then FD should have never started ED because there is too much money to be spent in support requests.




Game development never stops though. When it stops it's most of the times because it was abandoned. You have to give old players new things to keep them interested and new players better things as well, to win them over the competition.



Yes, this is possible but it shouldn't be used as an argument to not request something or talk about requesting something...I mean this is non constructive and here we are trying to have a constructive conversation, right?




It wouldn't change the nature of the game as long as you don't install and use that module. In other words, everyone is happy. But if you force me to not consider something just because "you don't think it should be added" then you are forcing your will on mine and this is not a discussion anymore. We are trying to avoid this. And again, let the developers worry about the cost/gain part, considering that a non-evolving game can also cost you in customers (and that's why they have ED 1.5, 2, 2.1, 2.2 etc...)




Ok, no problem, I understand.

Yeah, I'm not really arguing that the support costs are a reason I wouldn't want them to implement any enhancements to the game. That is, and always will be their concern. But, that said, my preference is for FD to add gameplay enhancements to the game over any QoL items that are meant to relieve perceived boredom. I see such QoL items as a kind of palliative to the symptoms vs. fixing the core issues of limited gameplay. For instance I'm very pro space legs, others are not. My being pro on that upcoming enhancement is predicated on the feature also adding gameplay. If all it adds is the ability to walk around my cockpit I'm not so sure I'd want them to spend the time implementing. I don't think that's the case so I'm pro space legs.

I'll put it this way: if players are so bored with the game that they would like to add an autopilot so that they can watch Netflix on another screen without having to constantly realign the ship and press J then maybe there's a bigger issue with the game design or the expectations of the player. So my question would be is there something that could be redesigned in the game that would keep a player from watching Netflix and stay glued to ED?

As for the forcing my will on anyone, I would never do that. All players are free to suggest and request changes to the game and I'm not in a position to prevent them. I don't want to limit in any way how other players play the game we have but I'll always hold an opinion on how the game I play is impacted by what other players want to see added, nerf, buffed, etc., even if I don't post about it. I can only add my opinion so that FD knows that there are those that are nay to someone else's yay or vice versa.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Then post in those threads, don't argue against points that were never raised here.

And as for the mining rigs. They ask for those because they were in previous elite games. Anyway doesn't sound that bad. It's not worse that the weekly bonus powerplay might give you.

I do argue in those threads, when I have time and when they come up. I have raised the points since they are related to my concerns over requested changes to the game I play. So please don't go telling me where I should post or how I should argue. You may report me if you feel I have violated a forum rule.

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

I actually agree, to a point.
Nav computers could be handy for those extra long stretches between binary, tertiary etc star systems, anything more than 300,000+ LS can be a bit of a drag.
I'm all for hands on control of our ships but I can also see when something like this could be helpful, right now I tend to eyeball and line up my destination, then go do something else like make a cuppa, toilet break etc, and quite often when I've returned my ship has veered way off course.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

I actually agree, to a point.
Nav computers could be handy for those extra long stretches between binary, tertiary etc star systems, anything more than 300,000+ LS can be a bit of a drag.
I'm all for hands on control of our ships but I can also see when something like this could be helpful, right now I tend to eyeball and line up my destination, then go do something else like make a cuppa, toilet break etc, and quite often when I've returned my ship has veered way off course.

I kind of like the idea of a SC nav computer, according to an earlier post FFE had an autopilot like that. You'd have to take your chances of course, when you return you may face a rebuy screen. No guarantee that some NPC or CMDR might not want all that tasty cargo. I've traveled to Hutton quite a few times, once I got up to deal with the ship's laundry and thought I had time to get a refreshing drink from the galley only to come back and be 10,000 ls past! Sure, the AP would have dropped me right at the outpost but where the fun in that! Plus, no more loops of shame.

Hyperspace autopilots, not for me. Seeing how badly the docking computer handles docking I'm not sure I'd trust the AP to not crash into a star at full speed. Remember: "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy. Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova, and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?" (I guess supernovas were quite common in the SW galaxy to be so concerned about them.)

 

[SatansMittens]

Yeah, I'm not really arguing that the support costs are a reason I wouldn't want them to implement any enhancements to the game. That is, and always will be their concern. But, that said, my preference is for FD to add gameplay enhancements to the game over any QoL items that are meant to relieve perceived boredom. I see such QoL items as a kind of palliative to the symptoms vs. fixing the core issues of limited gameplay. For instance I'm very pro space legs, others are not. My being pro on that upcoming enhancement is predicated on the feature also adding gameplay. If all it adds is the ability to walk around my cockpit I'm not so sure I'd want them to spend the time implementing. I don't think that's the case so I'm pro space legs.

I'll put it this way: if players are so bored with the game that they would like to add an autopilot so that they can watch Netflix on another screen without having to constantly realign the ship and press J then maybe there's a bigger issue with the game design or the expectations of the player. So my question would be is there something that could be redesigned in the game that would keep a player from watching Netflix and stay glued to ED?

As for the forcing my will on anyone, I would never do that. All players are free to suggest and request changes to the game and I'm not in a position to prevent them. I don't want to limit in any way how other players play the game we have but I'll always hold an opinion on how the game I play is impacted by what other players want to see added, nerf, buffed, etc., even if I don't post about it. I can only add my opinion so that FD knows that there are those that are nay to someone else's yay or vice versa.

Not every jump can be filled with some exciting gameplay though. If that were to happen i could imagine it getting very annoying when all you want to do is get to your destination. Don't get me wrong, they could definitely work on the core gameplay as well. I fully agree with what you're saying. But at some point travel in ED has to be a long process because of the scale of the galaxy. I don't think any amount of interesting gameplay elements will make a very long journey any less tedious than it already is. If i was trying to travel 100 or more jumps and i kept encountering things that interupted that, no matter how interesting or exciting, it might get kind of annoying after awile.
Best possible outcome would be for what you are suggesting and an autopilot to both be added to the game.

 

[MAUXUS]

Yeah, I'm not really arguing that the support costs are a reason I wouldn't want them to implement any enhancements to the game. That is, and always will be their concern. But, that said, my preference is for FD to add gameplay enhancements to the game over any QoL items that are meant to relieve perceived boredom. I see such QoL items as a kind of palliative to the symptoms vs. fixing the core issues of limited gameplay. For instance I'm very pro space legs, others are not. My being pro on that upcoming enhancement is predicated on the feature also adding gameplay. If all it adds is the ability to walk around my cockpit I'm not so sure I'd want them to spend the time implementing. I don't think that's the case so I'm pro space legs

I'll put it this way: if players are so bored with the game that they would like to add an autopilot so that they can watch Netflix on another screen without having to constantly realign the ship and press J then maybe there's a bigger issue with the game design or the expectations of the player. So my question would be is there something that could be redesigned in the game that would keep a player from watching Netflix and stay glued to ED?.

If there is a bigger issue, I think that until FDevs can manage to implement the missing exploring features that cause ppl to ask for an AP, it will take some time. The AP MODULE could be the first step, so that they don't lose ppl who prefer having the AP option, while at the same time they do not upset ppl who are not looking for one, and who are happy to wait any amount of time needed (AP would be a module and you don't need to fit it to your ship if you don't want it). It's a win win. Any other direction (Yes AP or No AP) might cause ppl in either of the respective parties to react negatively, or cause discontent at the very least. Unless of course FDevs can manage to fill the void before losing either of the parties' interest, that would be the third option. But I don't believe that developing these new features is a quick thing.

Just adding a reminder that the autopilot still needs to be monitored by the pilot and either disengaged automatically or by the pilot if there are any issues, so that the pilot can take over, correct the issue, then re-engage the autopilot. It would not be a set it and forget it type of thing.

 

[Luponator]

I guess I just see the game differently than some. I wiped my save and am now back in a SideWinder. Before that all I had was a Cobra Mk III and Mk IV. I have never gotten bored with jumping from system to system or traveling many 1000s of Ls to a system. Every time I jump or am in SC I keep a close eye on any ships and am extremely ready for an interdiction event. If I get interdicted I have to decide if I'll flee or fight. I find no boredom in this game.

Good for you. And just as not everyone is self-inflicting save game wiping on themselves, so are you free to not inflict an AP upon yourself. You, by your own words, play the game differently, yet you want to deny others to play their game different from you because you don't like their game?

You've added no counter argument, but thrown in a lot of unrelated topics and allegations.

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I have the freedom to play in the universe that FD develops. If they create an AP module that's their decision and I won't use it; you will be free to. Until that time I reserve to hold the opinion that if I don't want something in the game then it shouldn't be added. That's especially true if I feel, IMO, that it changes the nature of the game or puts additional development and support costs on FD.

Don't take this personal but wow, what a point of view. Because you don't like something, it should not be implemented, regardless of if alot of other players would like it? That's about as self-centered as it gets.
Nothing personal, just stunned by the approach to the argument.