No Single Player Offline Mode then? [Part 2]

[Wellington]

Michael can you explain WHY the refund process is taking so long? Surely the people who work on this are not devs OR the people who are attending the launch gig? It beggars belief that FD would willingly hold back refunds for any reason and a blind man could see that a little good will would go a long way to ending this current storm that FD has made for itself?

 

[Michael Brookes]

Michael can you explain WHY the refund process is taking so long? Surely the people who work on this are not devs OR the people who are attending the launch gig? It beggars belief that FD would willingly hold back refunds for any reason and a blind man could see that a little good will would go a long way to ending this current storm that FD has made for itself?

That's simply down to how busy everything is with this weekend's launch.

Michael

 

[piotrr]

tbh i going to try and get a refund on my unlimited expansion,as i prob wont get one for the game.
Will it really be a unlimited expansion? As there word means nothing to me now.

That also means you won't get planetary landings though. :/

I've said this before, but I don't want a refund. I also don't want anyone at all to suffer, at all. Like ever. But I do want an offline mode, I want to be able to disconnect and just ... zone. Just me and the "static" game. It's my dream since Frontier First Encounters. I even wrote one or two design documents for a follow-up game while I was at Massive Entertainment for that very reason. Man that was ages ago. Point is: I'm not some wild angry drunk, I'm not out for vengeance, I'm not in this to hurt anybody. I had a dream and that doesn't seem to be happening. I am hurt and sad and a little bit fragile. Other people express those emotions differently. Some even turn paranoid over it. Me, I'm mostly sad and trying to deal with it.

If I had my way, I wouldn't even need to do this, put myself out here with you ... human beings. I just wanted to play my game in peace without you. Not because I hate you, but because I prefer my escapism ... err ... escaped.

 

[kwh]

This would effectively be a new project. The code for the old versions of the game won't just drop into the new game.

Michael

Has somebody actually looked at this? I'm a software developer, all be it not any kind of game or graphics developer, and it seems to me the FFE D3D was a reskinning of the gameplay of FFE, which sort of implies that in the implementation of FFE, the front end of FFE & the back end must be sufficiently seperable that it _could_ be reskinned without rewriting it from scratch. Meanwhile, ED's tutorial missions demonstrate that not everything in the ED client has to happen in the live universe. Without seeing either codebase, it surely seems possible that using the FFE engine to set commodity prices at stations in a static galaxy translated like for like as far as possible from the FFE galaxy, and generate NPC encounters would be something doable. Probably even doable without branching into two codebases - either use compiler/pre-processor directives to handle compilation for either online or offline play so that changes that affect both only need to be applied once, or use flags if you want the offline mode built in to the client... it seems to me that any time solo online calls the server to get some information, the code could call the old FFE equivalent code to get analgous information, and any time it wants to tell the server something that a local static engine doesn't want to know, it can share it with /dev/null instead. Add a pause hotkey offline, completely replace supercruise offline with old school elite time dilation, and you have a functional and amazing looking offline game in the Elite tradition. Was this one of the options that was explored in any depth & dismissed as being uneconomic? Is it still looking uneconomic?

 

[piotrr]

Why would offline players buy ship skins? NPCs aren't gonna be impressed!

Maybe because I like the way my ship looks? The wireframe was a cute idea. Not going to buy any though.

 

[Wellington]

That's simply down to how busy everything is with this weekend's launch.

Michael

See, THAT sort of reply is why people are so miffed with FD...This was YOUR mess, readily admitted by YOU! Yet you treat disgruntled customers like the proverbial ginger step-child I KNOW its approaching launch, I couldnt really miss it could I? So what you are saying is that customer satisfaction is so low on your list of priorities that you will not get people in to put right the mess you created.....way to inspire good will Seriously though, thats really bad business practice.

 

[Zetta]

Not everyone is interested in buying into an ambiguous vision.
Many people bought into it for the list of features which were presented.
If this features list was just this line :'Whatever that may fit into the vision' , i doubt any people, except for a few dedicated worshipers, would have bought into it.
One can only wonder about what will be axed next cause it didn't conform to 'the vision', because none of us can peer into DB's mind.

Let's not forget, features presented with a huge caveat.
I dare say people would have backed on such vagaries because what they're after is the style of gameplay that Elite is known for.

The flip-side to your thinking is to only buy games that are built in their entirety and buy them with no knowledge of any planned features to avoid disappointment, even then I dare say that keeping such an inflexible mindset would lead to anguish due to post release patches.

See, THAT sort of reply is why people are so miffed with FD...This was YOUR mess, readily admitted by YOU! Yet you treat disgruntled customers like the proverbial ginger step-child I KNOW its approaching launch, I couldnt really miss it could I? So what you are saying is that customer satisfaction is so low on your list of priorities that you will not get people in to put right the mess you created.....way to inspire good will Seriously though, thats really bad business practice.

Well, it is the weekend. I'd imagine the majority of CS doesn't work weekends.

 

[Adept]

If you want all that is contained here to explode all over the whole forum, sure.

There is a good reason to keep one thread open and merge into it all posts about the same topic; it's standard practice not only here, but in about every game forum I've participated that is controlled by the dev or publisher. If you think having this thread is bad, not having it would be far worse.

Sadly you are probably right. The alternative would be to summarily issue timeout bans for those who persist in the dead horse flogging, and they probably get even more spiteful as a consequence. Sometimes one has to pick the least bad option.

 

[Zuikaku]

Michael this was wrong. If you misspoke and think it should be said better then edit your own post. Getting the moderator to do it (or the mods deciding to do it off their own back which is far worse) is not a good thing.

The sinister thing was correctly said but could be interpreted both ways but only if taken completely out of context. You would be right to fix it but there are better ways than this.

This "we coul'd not support both versions" is just fueling war within comunity. I never believed that this (fueling thing) is done intentionally, but FDs are trying hard to prove me wrong.

Are FDs really interested in such a split in comunity?

Why are they insisting on all these "we coul'd not do it", when DB itself said it was possible, but they just didn't want it to do? Even when offliners clearly stated that they woul'd be satisfied with non-dynamic, cut-down version of the game.

And another thing to all the online players attacking us here for being selfish. It is also easy to prove that you are just like us. Selfish. Just look at the all the ranting and crying you do when server is needed to do wipeout. And we are not even talking about feature or the way game is supposed to be played removed. so, please, stop patronizing us for failing to se some grater vision or accussing us for being selfish. cause seems we are all the same. You are not any better. You tend to cry for online save game lost As you woul'd cry and rant for feature you like lost. Although you knew well this is going to happen (we did not know since we trusted FDs on theeir word). It is a part of game development

 

[Adept]

Michael can you explain WHY the refund process is taking so long? Surely the people who work on this are not devs OR the people who are attending the launch gig? It beggars belief that FD would willingly hold back refunds for any reason and a blind man could see that a little good will would go a long way to ending this current storm that FD has made for itself?

While Frontier is not a small company, they are small enough that people have to wear several hats. The marketing, sales and PR people are also involved with Gamma launch and the premier event (and deserve to have the party!)

Please give them time. Next next week should be a little better, even though they will be squishing Gamma bugs and giving interviews like crazy, I bet.

 

[Wellington]

Well, it is the weekend. I'd imagine the majority of CS doesn't work weekends.

You mean they are not willing to pay overtime to sort out the mess they created? Seems to me they should be bending over backwards to regain some of the rep they have lost. Two wrongs do not make a right........

Customer: I am not satisfied with your product and cannot use it in the way I was told I could, due to your "design decision" Please refund my purchase costs?

FD: NO! NO NO! ER wait we cant say that because its against consumer law..........just wait there till we are good and ready, we have your cash what ya gonna do brah?

Customer then proceeds to post his opinions on the forums and is hounded by fanbois and white knights while trying to get some less vague explanation from FD.......

You couldnt write better comedy, my good will towards FD is spent. I will treat them as they treat me, in a like fashion and with disdain.

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[piotrr]

This would effectively be a new project. The code for the old versions of the game won't just drop into the new game.

I have no problem believing that.

But wouldn't you say that this whole "archived server" thing could double as an "offline server" function? A game where the universe doesn't change? So if that's a feature to be added going forward, could it not be repurposed for those of us who prefer a "static" world?

 

[Zuikaku]

And just one other thing. In last week FDs made following statements:

1. We worked hard on offline mode but it is just not possible due to server/content/engine
2. Offline mode just can not give you quality we want you to have
3. We developed this game with online play in mind
4. we scrapped the offline mode due to piracy/hack/secret concerns
5. No, we didn't abandon offline mode due to copyright/piracy concerns
6. Offline mode is possible, we scrapped it, it was design decision
7. We can not support both offline and online mode
8. ED can not be played without complex background server calculations
9. ED can be played without complex server calculations but that would mean modifying engine which cost resources (and refunds and potential customers lost do not cost at all?)

Doesn't this feeds those conspiracy theories just a little bit? Giving different statements many of which are contradictory?!

all you shoul'd you do was:

1. We can not give you offline mode, guys. we are very sorry about that. All of you who hoped for offline gameplay will be refunded unconditionally.
2. Gee, we didn't know offline mode means so much for part of our fanbase. Please, accept our apologies, we were carried away. We'll start working to implement offline mode soon after the release.

 

[synchromesh]

Ultimately we reached a point where it wasn't going to happen so we announced it. We would much rather not had to release such news a week before a launch event, but we had to tell people what was happening.

Michael

To be honest Michael had you have announced "No Offline Mode " AFTER Delivery I think FD could have had a real legal issue so it had to be announced before release.....Im not having a dig though....For me this means you must have been struggling to do it literally right up to the last minute.....Otherwise you could have announced it 6 months ago and it would have been all done and dusted by now.... For me that's validation that its a development issue rather than a scam which are pretty stupid accusations ..

 

[mipko]

That's simply down to how busy everything is with this weekend's launch.

Michael

Go do some work, be productive

 

[piotrr]

That was never the intended interpretation. We set out to make a vision of a game which we're proud of and we're achieving. We had intended to do a cut down version to support offline. The scope of the game has increased dramatically since Kickstarter and more of the game has needed to be done online. This has meant that we're unable to support offline. I completely understand that this upsets some people, I wouldn't pretend otherwise. But the fact came that we had to make a tough decision and we've made it. There has been quite a few posts that this was deliberate in some way to serve an agenda.

I understand that. I have no problem accepting that you have a vision and you sincerely wanted an offline mode and you made the hard choice to cut it when it turned into too much work and too little of the vision.

But hard choices, what make them really truly hard, is not that we feel bad about them, but that hard choices have hard consequences. This hard choice not to support offline mode means that a whole bunch of people want to not support you. As a hard consequence of a hard choice, let them go.

I'm ... probably not leaving. But I want to know that I can leave now that the game I've been dreaming about for seventeen years will not happen, because you chose not to support it. I want to have the choice of a refund, nevermind the legal implications. Just let me go, if I want to. In fact, let all of my people go, if they want to. That's the hard consequence to the hard choice. That's what truly makes it hard - not that we disappoint ourselves, but that we disappoint others who cared about us.

 

[piotrr]

I have been horrified by how such a small change to the game could turn so bitter.

I hope you made an effort to understand it despite being horrified, but I am making an assumption that you were honestly surprised and perplexed. Perhaps that wasn't the case.

Let's move forwards guys, we are so close the release now. This game is going to be incredible and the best thing we can do is play as much as we can and pour our constructive feedback onto these forums.

To some, "let's move forward" sounds like "please drop this subject that is important to you" and that's not something easily done at the mere asking.

My constructive feedback is that offline mode was important to me. A dynamic universe affected by other players wasn't just unimportant, it was the exact reason I didn't want it. My very first words on this forum was that I am a single player and my wife is too. We don't want other people in our games. We want to pause the games we play. All of these many many good reasons, and none of them are happening now. That makes me sad. Sadness doesn't make me angry per se, but when people make fun or demean or ignore someone else's sadness and disappointment, well that... that can infuriate me.

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Go do some work, be productive

Michael probably isn't immediately included in all of the launch development, or even the customer relation part of returns, but I don't know. Personally, I'm glad he fit a visit here into his schedule. Release is hell... post-release can be even worse, if you're unlucky. It takes quite a while before he can relax, and I can empathize from experience.

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It is very hard to stay positive on this matter. Especially without support or emphaty from the rest of community (who obviously consider us as a threat now) and unknown status of refunds or possible future of offline mode (remember that many of us are still pending requests for refunds because of that). So excuse us in advance if we can not be overly positive at the moment, since we would like to be

It tells me, more than anything, that I am justified in wanting a game that is unaffected by other members of the "community". I am right to want an offline single player mode. It fits me just fine.

 

[DarkWalker]

Sadly you are probably right. The alternative would be to summarily issue timeout bans for those who persist in the dead horse flogging, and they probably get even more spiteful as a consequence. Sometimes one has to pick the least bad option.

Don't forget that, if they start deleting posts and issuing bans over this, people will seek other forums, and there is a good chance the gaming press will start circulating a story about how they are stifling legitimate complaints. Going nuclear is only an option for those that can afford to take the PR hit (or whose image is already so negative that the PR hit won't matter; EA could likely do this with impunity, since people already expect them to do this kind of thing).

While Frontier is not a small company, they are small enough that people have to wear several hats. The marketing, sales and PR people are also involved with Gamma launch and the premier event (and deserve to have the party!)

Please give them time. Next next week should be a little better, even though they will be squishing Gamma bugs and giving interviews like crazy, I bet.

I partially agree. Though I do think Frontier should have already posted the revised refund policy they will be using when processing those requests or, if that is not yet ready, at least the guiding principles they will be using to craft the policy. Right now I believe the silence works against them and is undermining the goodwill they still have with the affected players.

Those early refund denials, IMHO, did a huge damage to their image. Re-oppening them was the right move, but fixing the issue after it already happened isn't nearly as effective as doing it right the first time.

Maybe because I like the way my ship looks? The wireframe was a cute idea. Not going to buy any though.

If I truly like a game I'm open to purchasing extras. Not sure if ED would qualify for me, since not only I never got past the tutorial, I never truly experienced how flying in it feels (joystick issues), but there are a number of games where I've purchased way more than the basic package.

 

[piotrr]

So I have this personal rule.

The more of a problem I have with something - the more I find it disagreeable, dangerous or in need of correction - the more I try to start off saying something positive about it. In extreme cases, I make sure to weigh every negative statement with a strong, heartfelt positive. That discipline helps you see things from the other guy's perspective, which in turn makes it easier for said guy to accept criticism as a problem you can resolve together to everyone's benefit. I mention this for two reasons, and the first reason is because it's a very effective technique everyone in this thread should try.

I will begin by saying that I appreciate - I find it positive - that you decided to share your personal rule. Such open sharing is difficult to criticize, and I'm not going to.

I also have a few personal rules:

One of them is "Start with the most difficult thing". That way, you have it out of the way first, you can quickly move on to more pleasing things and once you end off, you might even have a positive tone to finish with. That's very much what was done with the announcement. It was late, sure, but at least they got it out of the way and they even finished off by saying that this gives FD more time to focus on other things.

Another rule I have is a Swedish variety of a well-known concept: "Once is nothing. Twice is two too many." This one is more difficult since it lets things slide despite being wrong, and once it's too (two) wrong for your tastes, you're probably going to react to EVERYTHING that's been wrong so far and all the bitterness you felt from the first time comes swelling out alongside the bitterness from this second time.

What's even worse is when you give it a second or third chance. Once your cup runneth over, you're going to be very very upset. If someone, anyone, at that point suggests you should weigh all of the negative things you are feeling, with a positive, well... you're going to need a psychiatrist to work your kinks out afterwards.


(Once was the talk about multiplayer. Twice was when postage and packaging was £15 for physical rewards and the download was extra. something. Third was when planetfalls were delayed to a DLC and I had to get the DLCs. So No Offline was actually my fourth. I am not in a good place right now. I should have bailed on 2.)



Now. I'm not going to help heal the community. I wanted to be left alone with my beautiful, fantastic, enormous, gorgeous, enchanting space game, and I was just told I'm not going to be able to. I wasn't going to ask for a refund; I was going to try to enjoy the game anyway... but I'm inching closer and closer to the nuclear options the more of these helpfully nice and positive things that are being said about my long-held desire being scrapped and people calling it an improvement.

 

[piotrr]

What's the endgame to this action? Is there some sort of satisfaction to be garnered from attempting to cause the game to fail because of the absence of a certain feature? Personally I think it smacks of "If I can't have the game I want then no-one can have it". If that sits well with you... well I know it wouldn't with me.

First of all, I appreciate you are posting as a fellow member rather than a moderator. I know that's a hard line to walk, but I'll answer you as a member rather than a moderator since that's what you indicate.

The end game as in "what do I really want"? We'd really like an offline mode. Dead and non-dynamic and static and all, we'd still like it, please. That's the end game. Barring that, I'd like to become comfortable with the idea that online single player won't actually be that bad - people won't affect my market prices, planets won't show as explored when I visit them, the game universe can be paused and resumed at will, the game will still start without an internet connection, all the little niggling things like that. That would be a good second place end game, because we want non-linear endgames here, don't we?

Of course I don't want the game to fail. But for someone so fed up that they don't even want to stay with "the community", or so disappointed that they just want to get out, find out they CAN'T get out, well... you're going to have a few very desperate people around.

Personally, I am still hoping I can change myself and grow confident that solo online won't be so bad. So far, the community has given me very little positive to go by there, and a lot of lack of understanding, a lot of spite, a lot of blank looks.

Two good and positive things I could end on though:
1. I liked the person who tried to calculate how far you would have to jump before you ought to find entirely unexplored star systems. I like rational arguments like that. It didn't convince me because there were quite a few variables not accounted for, but I liked the effort.
2. Forgot the second. sorry about that. My wife is falling asleep at my shoulder, which I guess is also a positive.

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If I truly like a game I'm open to purchasing extras. Not sure if ED would qualify for me, since not only I never got past the tutorial, I never truly experienced how flying in it feels (joystick issues), but there are a number of games where I've purchased way more than the basic package.

I can understand that.

I've bought almost every single DLC for all of the games I have played online. I have never, ever, purchased a visual DLC like a new head for Borderlands or a new paint job for flying cars in Saints Row. And besides, E Already had my support back on the KS. No need to "support" them with paint jobs now.