I just realised this thread gives me an opportunity to shamelessly plug my third party tool, see signature 
NO to "third party tools" for ED
- Thread starter Cmdr Eagleboy
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The reason the 3rd party tool offerings are so robust and ubiquitous is because the game does a poor job explaining anything at all. There are many things in this game that should NOT need to be explained and should NOT be a function of external tools:
1.) Power/balancing for loadouts - Why is this not in the game already?
2.) Detailed information about how different class and size modules interact - Why is this a mystery? Why, for example, did I have to play the game for 3 months before learning that Class D modules are the lightest? Why is that sort of information not in tool tips?
3.) Why do I have to spend 3 hours bouncing around from high-tech station to high-tech station to find a C3 Gimballed beam laser? Why wouldn't they have a way to call and ask before venturing out across the galaxy hundreds of years into the future?
4.) Why is there no notation system inside the ship to help me keep track of places I've been and what goods were available where?
If you like everything being opaque, more power to you. Enjoy yourself. I, however, don't enjoy wasting 2 hours of my very limited gaming time doing things like #3 (did that a couple of weeks ago and am still about it). If there was no need, the tools wouldn't exist. Even with the tools, people are going to do plenty of trial and error as they come up with setups that work best for them. And in the end, that's what matters, right? Whether people start with a recommended build and branch off or start with nothing and build something that they think will work well, there is no shortage of things to sink time into. Worry less about how other people enjoy the game and don't presume anyone needs to or should join you in your crusade of silliness.
1.) Power/balancing for loadouts - Why is this not in the game already?
2.) Detailed information about how different class and size modules interact - Why is this a mystery? Why, for example, did I have to play the game for 3 months before learning that Class D modules are the lightest? Why is that sort of information not in tool tips?
3.) Why do I have to spend 3 hours bouncing around from high-tech station to high-tech station to find a C3 Gimballed beam laser? Why wouldn't they have a way to call and ask before venturing out across the galaxy hundreds of years into the future?
4.) Why is there no notation system inside the ship to help me keep track of places I've been and what goods were available where?
If you like everything being opaque, more power to you. Enjoy yourself. I, however, don't enjoy wasting 2 hours of my very limited gaming time doing things like #3 (did that a couple of weeks ago and am still about it). If there was no need, the tools wouldn't exist. Even with the tools, people are going to do plenty of trial and error as they come up with setups that work best for them. And in the end, that's what matters, right? Whether people start with a recommended build and branch off or start with nothing and build something that they think will work well, there is no shortage of things to sink time into. Worry less about how other people enjoy the game and don't presume anyone needs to or should join you in your crusade of silliness.
Disagree, I think the third party tools are extremely useful and add a lot to the game - a lot of which is stuff that SHOULD be in-game but isn't.
The outfitting websites are great for helping me figure out a basic build and more importantly cost. But I always end up tinkering with it to get a build that suits me. I don't care about min/maxing. The websites saves me time.
Trade tools I used to use a lot more, but ever since powerplay started I have been keeping my own logs since i now actually stick to a particular region of space and do my trading while also carrying out PP stuff.
It's ridiculous to think that some people would not share/use this information. It is also ridiculous to expect some people to NOT use things that help them and saves them time! If they end up getting bored with the game being a grind I really do not think it is the fault of the 3rd party tools.
Don't like them? Don't use them. No elephant in the room cos it really is not a big issue IMO.
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The outfitting websites are great for helping me figure out a basic build and more importantly cost. But I always end up tinkering with it to get a build that suits me. I don't care about min/maxing. The websites saves me time.
Trade tools I used to use a lot more, but ever since powerplay started I have been keeping my own logs since i now actually stick to a particular region of space and do my trading while also carrying out PP stuff.
It's ridiculous to think that some people would not share/use this information. It is also ridiculous to expect some people to NOT use things that help them and saves them time! If they end up getting bored with the game being a grind I really do not think it is the fault of the 3rd party tools.
Don't like them? Don't use them. No elephant in the room cos it really is not a big issue IMO.
(\(\;;/)/)
Reading the post would have disabused you of that idea. Ironic, given your post.
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THIS.
I mean, how come there is no advertisement *at all* in this universe?
IRL you open your mail box, BAM, you may already be a winner.
You open your inbox, SPAM.
You open your favorite site, ADS.
You turn on the radio, ADS.
You get in the car, BILLBOARDS.
You lock yourself inside a dark room and some idiot is right across the street, peddling their goods with a god damn bullhorn.
Anywhere you go, people are trying to sell you something.
But in ED, you have to hop from one star system to another until you find the vegetables you need.
Come on.
I think I understand what you mean...
When you use a Third-Party-Tool there is a serious risk of destroying the sence of what makes a game fun, enjoyable, lovely...etc. ...
For example, Years ago, when I got my hands on some cheats for GTA: It was fun, but it didn't last long... I got bored quick, they destroyed my interest for the game!
Believe it or not: I never searched for an "Exploit" or something that would make me rich or rank up quickly in elite-
I would be ashamed of myself! But, I admit, I searched for some good trading tipps and this is nothing anybody needs to be ashamed for! A trader in 3000 would also do some research first, before he starts his trip!
When you use a Third-Party-Tool there is a serious risk of destroying the sence of what makes a game fun, enjoyable, lovely...etc. ...
For example, Years ago, when I got my hands on some cheats for GTA: It was fun, but it didn't last long... I got bored quick, they destroyed my interest for the game!
Believe it or not: I never searched for an "Exploit" or something that would make me rich or rank up quickly in elite-
I would be ashamed of myself! But, I admit, I searched for some good trading tipps and this is nothing anybody needs to be ashamed for! A trader in 3000 would also do some research first, before he starts his trip!
And if your character had it communicated to them via in-game comms, fair enough. That's not what happens though, is it?
Well, yeah. If it's not official, or it's presenting information that should take you some time to discover, then it's allowing you to skip time, as if you had a jump range hack running. It's not illegal to cheat (it might violate the EULA in some cases, but mostly not). I don't know why you are so worked up that someone considers something to be cheating when you don't...guilty conscience?
I don't intentionally read threads on trade routes, the locations of rares or other artefacts, and the intricacies of any game mechanics that I shouldn't be privy to. Part of the fun of games, for me, is dsicovery. If I already know it all, it takes away from the experience. So you can keep your shame to yourself, please.
Not at all. They are just mainly irrelevant, because we have fiber-optics and all live on a small world (relatively speaking), and aren't spread across space. Latency.
Now, if zero-latency galaxy-wide comms are a common thing in ED (as the cheattools would imply by dint of the fact that they allow information to travel across the galaxy into many eyeballs instantaneously), why would anyone bother putting themselves in danger? Self-preservation is a human instinct too. Everyone would be remote piloting drone ships from the comfort of their futuristic chairs to wherever the greatest profit is available, and switching to the next location as soon as a sufficient change in prices occurs anywhere in the galaxy, because we'd all know about it at the same time.
And if silly arguments are the order of the day, and the fiction of ED is all down to us to decide based on what we think should be included (not what the developers think, the people who haven't included a trade tool in the client)....who's to say that technology hasn't progressed to some form of "quantum printing" in 3300 whereby items are autoassembled from a reservoir of sub-atomic particles, allowing control down to individual atoms of any constituent element? Why are we bothering with trading at all?
We should be able to replicate anything we want because I said so as a gamer, and because humans are better together or something - so "rares" should be commonplace, and shortages a thing of the past.
Our characters should probably be able to map the galaxy from the comfort of our own planetside quarters with our instacomms driven droneships, but why even bother? It's all just made of the same elements that we can cook up ourselves with our quantum printers, just further away.
Maybe we can combine the drone ship, the quantum printer, and the instananeous data transmission - and just teleport endless copies of ourselves across the galaxy to see all the sights we want without any pesky hyperspace travel? Sounds efficient, and like it might be fun for about 5 minutes.
Anyway....back to what is in the game and what isn't (like instant knowledge of trade prices across the galaxy).
Strawmen abound, it seems. That's not what I said at all.
Did you have to step outside the bounds of reality into some kind of meta-universe beyond our own in order to do any of those things? Didn't think so.
Saying "that's a weak argument" doesn't make it so. You haven't actually refuted it, anyway. You've just blown a lot of hot air about human achievement, as if cheating in a game (by giving your in-game character in-game knowledge they haven't been provided with by the game, or by others in-game using in-game tools, or discovered for themselves whilst in-game) is standing on the shoulders of giants in the same way as discovering DNA. But that's beside the point, really.
You posted a lot of useless text in response to my posts, considering you apparently don't care what I think. Methinks the lady doth protest too much. Wouldn't "LOL" have been easier?
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You use that word, "logic". I do not think it means what you think it means.
dammit why can't I just keep giving you rep again and again?! You are so right and I like the way you write it.
Wrong. I am saying that in my opinion, any third party tool that enables you to do things in-game based on abilities or knowledge that your in-game character shouldn't currently have access to is cheating. Writing stuff down for yourself, or using your own spreadsheet, consisting of knowledge that you have gathered or had communicated to your character in-game, is not cheating. Seems fairly strightforward to me, I'm surprised you're having trouble comprehending it.
Anyway, my opinion is one of many, why are people so bothered by it?
(Even if it is correct.)
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Outside of what, the universe we exist in? No. Unlike trade tools. Not the same thing.
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Wrong. I am saying that in my opinion, any third party tool that enables you to do things in-game based on abilities or knowledge that your in-game character shouldn't currently have access to is cheating. Writing stuff down for yourself, or using your own spreadsheet, consisting of knowledge that you have gathered or had communicated to your character in-game, is not cheating. Seems fairly strightforward to me, I'm surprised you're having trouble comprehending it.
Anyway, my opinion is one of many, why are people so bothered by it?
(Even if it is correct.)
Yes apart from having ACCESS to more than your own data is more than the norm these days so why shouldn't it be in the future? I myself cannot see why that is 'cheating'. People share data and info all the time in the real world. Why is that 'cheating'? I have trouble comprehending why you think it is. If people did not share information where exactly do you think we would be?
Maybe something to do with the fact that you insist on calling other people cheats, use needlessly confrontational and insulting language and generally come across as a bit of a prig? At a guess.
You want to limit your fun according to some peculiar "moral" notion of yours, suit yourself, because no one really cares.
I'm just offering you a friendly reminder that your very own notion of what constitutes cheating is so contrived and disconnected from reality that you wouldn't pass the test yourself.
This is called "ad hominem". It goes like this: I can't refute the argument of my opponent, so I will try to tarnish his character instead. It's very bad form.
Well, that's terribly convenient, uh? "I never do anything wrong ON PURPOSE". Dodging questions now, are we?
The important part, though, is that you're the only judge to what your character should or shouldn't be privy to, right?
Whatever it is that makes you think you have any say on what OTHER PEOPLES' characters should or should not know, it only exists in your head.
The tools that provide trading data don't have zero latency, on contrary. Most information are at least several hours old and some are so outdated they're no longer useful.
So I don't know what you're talking about here. Do you?
I obviously can't beat you in that regard, I won't even try.
You use that word, "strawman". I do not think it means what you think it means.
Besides, you opened your reply with an ad hominem, and NOW you're complaining about fallacies? That's rich.
And yeah, you've said at least twice that your character shouldn't be able to use any information he couldn't gather on his own.
This is a game, not an ant farm.
My character has no volition, he can't act on information, and he can't interact with its own universe, EXCEPT THROUGH ME.
I wear that character like a glove, so *I* can interact with his universe, not the other way around. Therefore, when I use information from outside the game, I'm not "stepping outside the bounds of reality into a meta-universe". I'm just getting information.
It doesn't really need refutation. The absurdity of that notion speaks for itself, and anyone with two neurons to rub together can see that.
NO U, fallacies, "because I said so".
I'm not sure why I expected anything better than that, but I did. How silly of me.
The real world, with fibre optic and satellite communications, where information can traverse the globe at the speed of light? That one? Fine, let's have that reality in-game.
How long does it take for data to travel to from your jump-in point to Hutton Orbital station? About 2.1 years.
If instantaneous datacomms were available to all, most ships wouldn't have pilots, because they could be controlled remotely like how the docking computer works. Trading would require even less risk, since everyone would know what is available, for what price, and they would know where everyone else is - if everyone had instacomms, there would soon be obligatory GPS (Galactic Positioning System) tracking on all ships, like how there is a shipboard computer that informs everyone with a scanner of your current list of crimes. Black markets simply wouldn't exist (they shouldn't be so out in the open as it is, but I digress). Piracy would be impossible. Bounty hunting would be similarly difficult. Exploration whould probably just be a case of sending a remote-control exploration drone ship with a fuel scoop to scan system after system, day after day, and send the results back instantaneously to Universal Cartographics, never having to return home, and just buying a new ship when that one finally dies rather than waste time flying back.
The guy was being ridiculous with his "pencil and paper" post, and he knew it. I was well within my rights to be a bit snarky. I didn't insult anyone. All these discussions are is people posting their opinions, and I argued for the proposition. Sorry if people felt offended by my posts (unless they were just trying to crack cheap jokes or insult rather than argue the point - a good illustration of the "win at all costs", methinks).
Galnet does it, wings do it, CQC technically does it, Powerplay does it...instantaneous comms cross galaxy exist...faster than light. FD hiding trade data in game is just a way to make an underdeveloped feature feel like a game. I'll say it again, even if you had to fly a fleet of sidewinders all around the bubble collecting market data by hand and voice comm it around, a corporation would make oodles of money doing so. Even if they had to write it all down by hand, take it all back to a central location, then redistribute it to every system, the data would be far less than a day old and you would make oodles upon oodles of money doing it. The system in the game is arbitrary and silly and a placeholder for an actual trade mechanic.
Why did you have to bring actual facts to the discussion? We were having so much fun with fabrications, wrong assumptions and IMOs.
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