Odyssey space has "too much contrast" - breaking down the rendering of a frame

Well, Elite was already polished, until they un-polished it (visually speaking now).
It was not completed.
And still not completed.
And won't be completed for next several years.
And I think it will last for 20 years in total instead of planned 10.
Main problem of the product is an attempt to make moneys instead of providing good product.
I am not sure that they do understand that target audience is rather grown up people who will pay money for the game without any problems.
So to make people happy just make good product and fast. Implementing stuff by milestones most likely will lead to "just make this work" approach which demands high responsibility and qualified personnel later to make decisions about how to expand the code in right direction.
But there are attempts to make production cheaper, right, money win again.
Yet another problem: developers will leave the process due to various reasons. And new (probably cheaper ones) will arrive bringing new issues.
David Braben said that they did great job delivering EDO. He did not specify what exactly was great: I suspect that it was about new team, new features, timeline and integration with the old code. From this point of view they did great job indeed.

Edit: I am not judging or protecting; only observing.
I am not interested in the legs. I have done with the spaceships everything I wanted. I will wait for final product.
 
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That is pretty much the mentality I was referring to. :)
Well, after 35 years of gaming I have certain expectations for full price (DLC) releases, being a combination of time spent on the product and the resulting quantity and quality. Suffice to say that Odyssey has left me whelmed.
 
I think we need more people on that one.
Yeah just saw another thread where a ticket related to being able to find odyssey combat zones was "expired" because there weren't enough participants on the ticket, despite a pretty active thread on it. That's um ... not a great way to treat customers IMO. Let's hope we can get this gamma ticket up to 10 responses at least!
 

Deleted member 182079

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Sorry, not interested in such straw men. What I mean is this:

ED: 76% on steam
NMS: 70% on steam
X4: 74% on steam

These are all massive projects with insane value for money. And the space game community can muster little more than a lethargic 'meh, its okayish I guess, we deserve moar!!!!'. That people look at EDO and say "looks like it was made by three people!" is why UbiSoft says:"Lol to those losers, lets make Assassins Creed 17 and grab another easy 85% score instead.".

But people here can feel victimized as much as they want, and bemoan their terrible fate, if they want. Perspective is relative in the end.
Yeah sure, I was a bit snappy there, sorry.

I'm talking about Odyssey specifically here, not Elite as a whole. Horizons is still a great game, and the score of 70+ is fair imo as it's also a very marmite game, which personally is more owned towards the particular ideas Frontier has of what constitutes game loops (simple activities) and progression (repetition). I get along with it (despite both aspects) but I can see how others might bounce off hard instead. Takes a particular mindset to enjoy it after all.

I just don't think it's right to paint those who constructively criticise Odyssey and Frontier's handling of its issues as entitled, whiny nerds who are impossible to make happy. I give credit where it's due, have done so plentiful in the past with Elite (and boy do I still remember myself defending Odyssey to those who, in hindsight rightfully, called release public Beta), it's just that Odyssey hasn't really given me anything to work with here.
 
Yeah sure, I was a bit snappy there, sorry.

I'm talking about Odyssey specifically here, not Elite as a whole. Horizons is still a great game, and the score of 70+ is fair imo as it's also a very marmite game, which personally is more owned towards the particular ideas Frontier has of what constitutes game loops (simple activities) and progression (repetition). I get along with it (despite both aspects) but I can see how others might bounce off hard instead. Takes a particular mindset to enjoy it after all.

I just don't think it's right to paint those who constructively criticise Odyssey and Frontier's handling of its issues as entitled, whiny nerds who are impossible to make happy. I give credit where it's due, have done so plentiful in the past with Elite (and boy do I still remember myself defending Odyssey to those who, in hindsight rightfully, called release public Beta), it's just that Odyssey hasn't really given me anything to work with here.
Well, I think it is a bit of both. The space game community IMHO absolutely has a disproportionate amount of entitled, whiny nerds who are impossible to make happy. I also think the EDO launch was pretty unacceptable, both the product itself and the communication surrounding it. That they already communicated that there will be only limited performance improvements in update seven(!), with the first bits of the 'real improvement' coming in a future update without any kind of release windowis pretty indicative of in what state it released all those months ago. Braben's non-excuse ("We really had no clue about performance issues, pinky swear, if only someone mentioned it in the alpha, it runs great on my pc honestly, we care so much!") is still annoying to think about.

Problem is that in the DD forums both issues blend into one whiny noise. The subreddit is much more accurate a measurement of the community vibe: sometimes its happy, with the EDO launch it definitely was not and now it is slowly improving a bit. The DD forums on the other hand have been nothing but negative for at least half a decade now. The past was always glorious, the present is always depressing and the future is doom.

Seeing some of the most vocal critics of Horizons now loudly praise its former glory is laughable, really. Pretty sure that they will never be positive about EDO until Elite Dangerous: Arrival launces in 2025 when suddenly EDO will be presented as the pinnacle of entertainment the likes humanity has never seen since. :p
 

Deleted member 182079

D
Well, I think it is a bit of both. The space game community IMHO absolutely has a disproportionate amount of entitled, whiny nerds who are impossible to make happy. I also think the EDO launch was pretty unacceptable, both the product itself and the communication surrounding it. That they already communicated that there will be only limited performance improvements in update seven(!), with the first bits of the 'real improvement' coming in a future update without any kind of release windowis pretty indicative of in what state it released all those months ago. Braben's non-excuse ("We really had no clue about performance issues, pinky swear, if only someone mentioned it in the alpha, it runs great on my pc honestly, we care so much!") is still annoying to think about.

Problem is that in the DD forums both issues blend into one whiny noise. The subreddit is much more accurate a measurement of the community vibe: sometimes its happy, with the EDO launch it definitely was not and now it is slowly improving a bit. The DD forums on the other hand have been nothing but negative for at least half a decade now. The past was always glorious, the present is always depressing and the future is doom.

Seeing some of the most vocal critics of Horizons now loudly praise its former glory is laughable, really. Pretty sure that they will never be positive about EDO until Elite Dangerous: Arrival launces in 2025 when suddenly EDO will be presented as the pinnacle of entertainment the likes humanity has never seen since. :p
I think our views are largely aligned to be honest. And I'd be the last person on the planet to defend "gamers", my statements are always merely representing my own views, and perhaps may include other individuals who share similar ones (or rather vice versa!).

I also recognise that there's a good few posters here that would probably be better off abandoning the game altogether than continue to post ... I do wonder sometimes if I'm becoming one of them, but I will hang in there until patch 8 at least and see if things are changing a bit more fundamentally, and I do like the community as a whole and haven't given up on the game just yet. But what perhaps gets my back up more is those individuals who brush any criticism of the game aside and almost imply it's one's own fault for not playing the game correctly or making a fuss over nothing ("20fps is fine, and space is black, Moana Lisa!", et al).

I've not been here for as long as you, but my initial time here as well as my attitude (I hope) has been pretty positive (some major mess ups over the past by FDev notwithstanding, I consider it 'tough love'), right up until EDO's release. Not even Fleet Carriers had the same negative impact that EDO had for me in terms of turning the mood sour, I actually ended up loving them and bought plenty of cosmetics for mine and enjoyed it, despite its half-baked and buggy implementation after all the initial hype.

Suppose trust (and/or faith if you want to call it that) is lost a lot quicker than it is regained, and I do feel a bit misled by Frontier based on how the communication and details around the Alpha and eventually final release panned out. Always gave them the benefit of the doubt, even during the Alpha still, and have since release felt like a fool who's been taken for a ride (paying a premium to 'test' a buggy product/early access would've never crossed my mind in the past, but there I was) so don't find a lot of energy to remain optimistic, especially in light of them doubling down on some of the more debatable design choices that come with the DLC, while seemingly ignoring very obvious issues that I notice straightaway when I play the game.

Not much I can do about though other than venting my mild frustration over it here every now and then. If/when they turn things around I won't be shy in giving praise again ;)
 
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And I'd be the last person on the planet to defend "gamers", my statements are always merely representing my own views, and perhaps may include other individuals who share similar ones (or rather vice versa!).
You quote me often, on, both... It is the way things are! :ROFLMAO:
I also recognise that there's a good few posters here that would probably be better off abandoning the game altogether than continue to post ... I do wonder sometimes if I'm becoming one of them
No, stick around, please.
Not much I can do about though other than venting my mild frustration over it here every now and then. If/when they turn things around I won't be shy in giving praise again
We'll have to wait until Update 8 for the praise, I think.
 
But what perhaps gets my back up more is those individuals who brush any criticism of the game aside and almost imply it's one's own fault for not playing the game correctly or making a fuss over nothing ("20fps is fine, and space is black, Moana Lisa!", et al).
Yep, that's something I fully agree with. But the problem is the weird "us vs them" mentality that's come out of it all. For every person brushing off valid criticism of the game in its current state, there's another who refuse to give it ANY credit whatsoever. So just as annoying as the "there's nothing wrong, you need to get over it or play something else" people can get, the "Nobody actually likes this game, the ones who claim they do are just sheep or FDev employees pretending to be players" are as bad. It's almost tribal now, where anyone who's mildly content with the game gets tagged as a white knight, anyone who's mildly critical of the game gets tagged as a doom/salt merchant. (See quote in my sig for an example of that, haha)

People get attacked for mild opinions, they become entrenched, and things go to pot.

I mean, its as Ian said - the forums have been incessantly negative for the best part of half a decade now, and many times the tune is the same. "The current version of the game is awful, they should never have changed it. So they need to change it. But when they do, I'll complain about that change, and look back on this with rose-tinted glasses."
 
I think our views are largely aligned to be honest.
I think so too. :)
but I will hang in there until patch 8 at least and see if things are changing a bit more fundamentally,
Honestly, I think that is when we'll see the start of it. If I were a betting man I'd say we'll have to wait till the end of december for most of the real improvements to arrive. U7 will bring very little performance improvements, U8 will bring some of the main chunks and U9 should bring enough. If January 1st performance is still crap that would indicate to me they simply can't get it right. Until than I'll assume they'll fix it before the year''s end.

Then add proper AA and we'll look at a very pretty and nicely running game. :p

But what perhaps gets my back up more is those individuals who brush any criticism of the game aside and almost imply it's one's own fault for not playing the game correctly or making a fuss over nothing ("20fps is fine, and space is black, Moana Lisa!", et al).
;)

Yup, they suck too. There is one gentleman here who is particularly annoying like that, but I don't think he means to be an obvious white knight. But one small nuance: performance sensitivity is very much variable. Some people legit can feel sick when FPS frequently dips below 60FPS (on a non-VRR monitor), whereas others legit dont mind stupidly low FPS. Some folks might be perceived as 'haters' for sincerely complaining about what others may think is perfectly fine performance, while they themselves enjoy performance that to others surely cannot legit be enjoyable. Objectively speaking EDO runs poorly. Whether it is acceptable, perfectly fine, annoyingly poor or downright unplayable is subjective though, and all these opinions can be sincerely held by different people even if they were playing on the same rig.

As for the lightning; its mixed. Sometimes EDO looks better than any space game I have seen, which perfect contrast on my OLED screen. Sometimes it looks ridiculously over-exposed, or incredibly dark. I dont feel it is working as it should, but its hard to make overall statements like 'EDO is better/worse than Horizons'. Its really very contextual. I dont have even remotely the expertise to respond to OP, and all I got from it was that rendering in 2021 is way more complex than it was in 1994. :p
 
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As for the lightning; its mixed. Sometimes EDO looks better than any space game I have seen, which perfect contrast on my OLED screen. Sometimes it looks ridiculously over-exposed, or incredibly dark. I dont feel it is working as it should, but its hard to make overall statements like 'EDO is better/worse than Horizons'. Its really very contextual. I dont have even remotely the expertise to respond to OP, and all I got from it was that rendering in 2021 is way more complex than it was in 1994. :p
I just wished they would either confirm or disprove OP's analysis so we can put this thread to bed. That said, don't forget to upvote the issue.
 

Deleted member 182079

D
I think so too. :)

Honestly, I think that is when we'll see the start of it. If I were a betting man I'd say we'll have to wait till the end of december for most of the real improvements to arrive. U7 will bring very little performance improvements, U8 will bring some of the main chunks and U9 should bring enough. If January 1st performance is still crap that would indicate to me they simply can't get it right. Until than I'll assume they'll fix it before the year''s end.

Then add proper AA and we'll look at a very pretty and nicely running game. :p
Could be. Though it's a bit crazy to consider another 3-4 months wait before the game runs acceptably - despite being a bug-ridden mess CP2077 ran great on my PC from the get go, and looked lovely at the same time. The fact that Frontier are adding back CAS suggests to me they're nowhere near sorting out the underlying issues properly and will rely on band aids like it and FSR for the foreseeable future. And even with FSR enabled the game struggles to hit 60fps in concourses for me, while looking noticeably worse.

I'm curious though about the AA change - this was always a real eyesore in Elite, which only playing with SS above 1.0 and/or at 1440p sorted out even in Horizons.
Yup, they suck too. There is one gentleman here who is particularly annoying like that, but I don't think he means to be an obvious white knight.
I think I know who you mean, and while I'm inclined to agree they may not do it on purpose/to troll others, this "I'm alright Jack" attitude is just as irritating, I wish people like that would just remain silent on the topic if they don't have any issues if they don't have anything useful to say since others clearly do have problems (been playing again last night in the concourses and settlements, with FSR disabled at SS1.0 it still is such a janky, juddery mess it at times makes me literally feel queasy - and with FSR on, it's the aliasing and fuzzy text that does it instead).
But one small nuance: performance sensitivity is very much variable. Some people legit can feel sick when FPS frequently dips below 60FPS (on a non-VRR monitor), whereas others legit dont mind stupidly low FPS. Some folks might be perceived as 'haters' for sincerely complaining about what others may think is perfectly fine performance, while they themselves enjoy performance that to others surely cannot legit be enjoyable. Objectively speaking EDO runs poorly. Whether it is acceptable, perfectly fine, annoyingly poor or downright unplayable is subjective though, and all these opinions can be sincerely held by different people even if they were playing on the same rig.
I get that - and I'm one of the unfortunate ones who notices the difference between 120 and 60, and even 58 and 60. I used to play ED at locked 30fps because my laptop couldn't handle more, but since I upgraded to a proper PC I got used to the buttery smooth 60 very quickly. It's really more the variation in rates that makes things uncomfortable, if it was a lower but stable framerate I'd cope. Though given that Elite ran very well in Horizons, and that Odyssey's new environments aren't even remotely as complex and pretty as what I can experience in other games, I cannot accept the excuse some bring forward in that it justifies a higher strain on your hardware. I do wish that those who don't have these sensitivities would refrain from suggesting "it's not that bad get over it" but I suppose some people find it hard to see things from anothers' perspective, so 🤷‍♂️
As for the lightning; its mixed. Sometimes EDO looks better than any space game I have seen, which perfect contrast on my OLED screen. Sometimes it looks ridiculously over-exposed, or incredibly dark. I dont feel it is working as it should, but its hard to make overall statements like 'EDO is better/worse than Horizons'. Its really very contextual. I dont have even remotely the expertise to respond to OP, and all I got from it was that rendering in 2021 is way more complex than it was in 1994. :p
There's some really weird stuff going on in EDO (the FSS heatmap when in vanity cam mode seems to emit light which reflects on your ship for example), and this dynamic lighting effect that is supposed to simulate your eyes getting used to bright/dark environments is way too aggressive and simple. If I look up and away from the cockpit UI (bright orange) things including gas giants suddenly become brighter. It really takes me out of the game, and sometimes this happens without any bright light source in your view (say you look into a different direction on the dark side of a planet, brightness changes willy-nilly). Or when you're docked at a planetary port during nighttime, when you appear from the docking bay towards the surface, the planet surface is bright as day, until you reach about 100-200m altitude when it goes back to pitch black again. There's countless more examples that would fill up the top 20 charts very quickly. But Frontier says it's fixed - all that proves is that they either don't play their own game, or they want to avoid fixing remaining issues, or it's by design (as shocking as that would be I'd have to accept that), possibly a bit of all 3.

On top of that there are many SFX that are either subdued, or missing completely - check out your ship in vanity cam while in normal space, and observe the difference when it comes to bloom and thruster effects, and engine trails. Horizons looks so much better here. Cosmetics I won't go into any further, this is particularly bad since these things cost money and when you compare the thumbnails to what the game renders, it's not the same. I'd almost call it false advertising but this isn't acknowledged by Frontier apart from them addressing a handful of paintjobs, while leaving the vast majority the way it is. Not cool.

-------

So those are just the visual issues.... what really makes me wonder whether I still play by January is whether they'll address the various issues with underlying game mechanics... for example, last night I went to Orrere (Anarchy system) and raided a settlement - no mission, just a random visit to mess about and gather some mats - switched off the alarm, and then picked off various NPCs. Not only did the game count each bounty (in an anarchy? the faction of the settlement wasn't one, but the controlling faction in the system is) despite me not leaving any witnesses nor were they able to radio in help, but the game also slapped some notoriety on my CMDR for good measure.

I logged off shaking my head - why did I bother to travel to Orrere in the first place then? Could've done it anywhere else and just face the music the same way (bounties + notoriety). It's just one example but these internal inconsistencies will likely remain in the game unless groups of players lobby for them, and even then it's pot luck whether anything is done about it or not. On top of wondering why I even went there to gather mats in the first place - I already have a good selection of pre-engineered gear that I can win High CZs with, and roflstomp entire settlements. But to what goal? And this is why the entire EDO section of gameplay content leaves me cold more and more. The spaceship stuff is as fun as ever but after thousands of hours and no recent updates to it it does get boring also, naturally.

So what was the point I was trying to make again? I forgot :) Sorry for the wall of text, though glad I could get this off my chest so thanks for reading (or not) ;)
 
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So those are just the visual issues.... what really makes me wonder whether I still play by January is whether they'll address the various issues with underlying game mechanics... for example, last night I went to Orrere (Anarchy system) and raided a settlement - no mission, just a random visit to mess about and gather some mats - switched off the alarm, and then picked off various NPCs. Not only did the game count each bounty (in an anarchy? the faction of the settlement wasn't one, but the controlling faction in the system is)

I logged off shaking my head - why did I bother to travel to Orrere in the first place then? Could've done it anywhere else and just face the music the same way (bounties + notoriety). It's just one example but these internal inconsistencies will likely remain in the game unless groups of players lobby for them, and even then it's pot luck whether anything is done about it or not. O

;)
Just a small FYI, but I think you just misunderstood how it works. It actually is quite consistent, and if you understand it, very much useful.

1) There is no system-wide BGS state. This was changed years ago.
2) Every part in a system is owned by one specific faction; the rules of that faction applies to that bit of space.

So as a crude example, if Afghanistan could be considered anarchy the last few years, what you did was go there and shoot up some NATO bases. Thing is that the rule of law very much was applied there. You cant then go back to western Europe and go:"Oh, I couldnt do that? I thought the whole countrie was a free for al!" :) This means you can go to an 'anarchy system' (i.e. a system where the dominant faction is anarchy) and make one of the non-anarchy bases your temp home. As you raid the anarchy bases over and over you wont get a bounty on your head or notoriety on your head, the faction will hate you more and more but you'll always have shelter at the non-anarchy base where you gain rep as you hand in your bounties.

The opposite also works (more my style): I pick a small anarchy base in a non-anarchy system as my home, and raid all other bases. I may be wanted in 99% of the system, but there will be small pockets where I can safely dock, refuel and repair. Like guerilla warfare. :)

So no, you dont need to travel to a anarchy system but to an anarchy base if you want to loot without notoriety or bounties. And they are everywhere. These are all the anarchy bases near Sol:

I agree stealth should be improved further with regards to consequences: with disabled alarms and stealth kills its daft to get bounties or notoriety. :/
 

Deleted member 182079

D
Just a small FYI, but I think you just misunderstood how it works. It actually is quite consistent, and if you understand it, very much useful.

1) There is no system-wide BGS state. This was changed years ago.
2) Every part in a system is owned by one specific faction; the rules of that faction applies to that bit of space.

So as a crude example, if Afghanistan could be considered anarchy the last few years, what you did was go there and shoot up some NATO bases. Thing is that the rule of law very much was applied there. You cant then go back to western Europe and go:"Oh, I couldnt do that? I thought the whole countrie was a free for al!" :) This means you can go to an 'anarchy system' (i.e. a system where the dominant faction is anarchy) and make one of the non-anarchy bases your temp home. As you raid the anarchy bases over and over you wont get a bounty on your head or notoriety on your head, the faction will hate you more and more but you'll always have shelter at the non-anarchy base where you gain rep as you hand in your bounties.

The opposite also works (more my style): I pick a small anarchy base in a non-anarchy system as my home, and raid all other bases. I may be wanted in 99% of the system, but there will be small pockets where I can safely dock, refuel and repair. Like guerilla warfare. :)

So no, you dont need to travel to a anarchy system but to an anarchy base if you want to loot without notoriety or bounties. And they are everywhere. These are all the anarchy bases near Sol:

I agree stealth should be improved further with regards to consequences: with disabled alarms and stealth kills its daft to get bounties or notoriety. :/
If that's how it's supposed to work, fair enough. Although are RES zones 'owned' by the controlling faction then at all times? Because I was able to slaughter miners (farming for mats, as you do) there last night by the dozen - no repercussions at all, not even a bounty. I thought the controlling faction had jurisdiction over the entire system including ground bases, does the same apply then to Horizons settlements?
 

Deleted member 182079

D
Yep, that's something I fully agree with. But the problem is the weird "us vs them" mentality that's come out of it all. For every person brushing off valid criticism of the game in its current state, there's another who refuse to give it ANY credit whatsoever. So just as annoying as the "there's nothing wrong, you need to get over it or play something else" people can get, the "Nobody actually likes this game, the ones who claim they do are just sheep or FDev employees pretending to be players" are as bad. It's almost tribal now, where anyone who's mildly content with the game gets tagged as a white knight, anyone who's mildly critical of the game gets tagged as a doom/salt merchant. (See quote in my sig for an example of that, haha)

People get attacked for mild opinions, they become entrenched, and things go to pot.

I mean, its as Ian said - the forums have been incessantly negative for the best part of half a decade now, and many times the tune is the same. "The current version of the game is awful, they should never have changed it. So they need to change it. But when they do, I'll complain about that change, and look back on this with rose-tinted glasses."
The tribalism hasn't gone unnoticed for me either, it's very unfortunate and I find it's gotten worse particularly since EDO released (no real surprise about the dynamics I suppose). What gets to me a lot more than a few habitual complainers (I know them by now so usually just skip reading their posts) though is the gang of a few posters who are intent on derailing every single critical (even if it's well argued and has merit) thread with the same old tired meme posting, until the thread gets closed eventually, while that thread is kept open despite it being the ultimate derail exercise (fwiw I didn't like the OP but it should've just been closed just like the rest of it then). It's a pity because I enjoy well reasoned debates, something that drew me here in the first place.
 
I couldn't resist it: How 'fixed' the lighting is - I bought this Anaconda this afternoon and grabbed the start screen in both Horizons & Odyssey. Tactical Graphite PJ and Lunar Hunter Decal.
Horizons.jpg

Odyssey.jpg

Which version did Frontier intend us to be flying?
 
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