Odyssey - what's the point?

[Flimley]

Reading through the odyssey forums since it’s release. The general overtone to me is one of, (for want of a better word) Meh.
Not really seeing a plethora of awesome comments or discussions about any particular aspect. No copious threads discussing game play tactics. The odyssey engineering system doesnt appear to be going down to well, along with many other aspects. The odyssey screenshot thread is nice though.

Development of this game seems like the gaming equivalent of word salad. Non focused and throw everything in (CQC.Powerplay,multiplap) until something works. Anyway, let’s hope it all ends well.

Flimley

 

[Darkfyre99]

I've been thinking about this ...

People say Elite is a mile wide and an inch deep yes? So - while a mile WIDE is not in dispute - let's say each activity IS only an inch deep. You can combine them though. Taking a loose example, you can trade for personal profit, to assist a faction, in support of a power or as part of a community goal .. what about personal profit IN a community goal? Using what they call in maths a factorial, 4 options combined in all possible ways gives 4 x 3 x 2 x1 (24) possible combinations.

How many different activities in Elite? (remember, it IS a mile wide) .. Thargoid pew pew, Thargoid codex, Guardian Tech, Guardian lore, trading, smuggling, piracy, mining, combat zone, resource extraction sites, nav beacon security, bounty hunting, assassination missions, fetch missions, passenger missions, geology, biology, exploration, scavenging, ship engineering .. I'll stop there, there are more, but that's 20.

20! (factorial) is what we like to call a REALLY big number .. 2.4 E+18 inches (deep) to be precise and - since there are 63,360 inches in a mile, ED can i fact be said to be one mile wide .. 38,398,074,624,000 miles deep!


(for sake of interest you break one mile deep at 9 activities)

Yes… there’s a lot of activities to choose from in this game.

Of course, when most players talk about depth, they’re ultimately talking about the number of meaningful decisions… not just number of activities in the game. Which is something this game used to have more of, back in the day. Frontier, in general, seems to be afraid of allowing players to fail. Credit rewards have been steadily increasing over the years, making credits largely meaningless. Faction reputations, both major and minor, gave been disconnected from each other… making who you want to take missions from largely meaningless. The BGS was changed so that missions only have a positive effect on the issuing faction, making the types of missions you take for them largely meaningless.

This has largely been the pattern since Alpha Four… until EDO. For the first time in years, I feel like I’m making meaningful decisions in this again. A less than legal attempt to get a sensitive sample has me weighing the advantages and disadvantages of murdering an NPC who refused to move away from my target. A visit to a nearby offline site on the way back from a mission has me debating whether I can take down one scavenger without alerting the others. The new exploration heat maps has me flicking between filters to find a worthwhile landing zone.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

On that note, here are some more X4 screenshots I grabbed. This picture is from the flight deck of my destroyer, which has docks for four small ships. Unlike ED, I can actually display my ships on my "personal fleet carrier" and walk around them, board them, etc. Notice that when the lighting is right, this game can look surprisingly realistic (more akin to Elite).

Spoiler

View attachment 240572

Here's a view of the flight deck from the bridge. Yes, this "fleet carrier" has a bridge where I can walk around or take control and fly myself. I'm pressed up against the window as far as I can go, so the actual bridge is behind me, but I wanted to show the view of my small collection of little ships - a scout, a heavy fighter, and a "racer".

Spoiler

View attachment 240573

Here's an external view of my destroyer, showing my little fleet docked below. I can place all these ships in the hanger just like in ED, which is a good idea should I come under attack (except for the heavy fighter which I'll be jumping into).

Spoiler

View attachment 240574

This beauty was just floating adrift in a backwater system. It needed some fixing up, but it's now the fastest ship in my fleet. I can't normally buy this ship, because it belongs to a faction I'm not aligned with. Seeing that I need to "win a race" to unlock research to improve my engines, the timing of finding this racer is perfect!

Spoiler

View attachment 240575

I know that I'm supposed to play this as a menu / map driven game like Stellaris, but I keep returning to playing it like it's ED, flying my own ships, fighting my own fights (who told you X4 wasn't a detailed combat space sim?), exploring, etc. Sure, I've got mining ships that work for me while I'm out having fun, and I'm producing silicon wafers as fast as my humble little station can pump them out, but most my time is spent flying, not map-sitting. Of course, I'm still early game and in my honeymoon phase, so perhaps this will change with time.

While the graphics may not be that impressive on the surface, it's the scope and coherence (based on what I read) that does it for me. Putting your ships into dock to protect them from an attack? Makes sense - compare and contrast with how things work in Elite. I can see myself losing hundreds of hours in that game. It seems there's a lot of scope for differing gameplay styles and how small/big your piloting career could be - sounds very intriguing and reminds of something else.

As a kid I used to be all over a little game called Starflight; bought a copy (with my pocket money - one of the few legitimate copies I owned back then!) for my C64, it was completely broken, as was my heart (no patches, the game was basically DOA for me) until I re-purchased it years later for the Mega Drive. Graphics rubbish, sound was close to non-existent but the scope ... explore a galaxy with solar systems, planets to land on, deal with alien races, while outfitting your ship based on your needs (cargo vs weapons etc.).. all in its lovely pixelated glory. I was in heaven. Even back then Elite (also on my C64 though without manual as so often the case... so the learning curve was even steeper) didn't quite capture my imagination and sense of exploring space as much as Starflight did. Never completed it, funnily enough.

My head would have literally exploded if I was able to witness back then what we're able to play nowadays.

 

[Amy Pendergast]

I didn't like the first incarnation of Bio-Scanner, as many others did. But I was hoping for something much more engaging and sophisticated - as I suspect many others were as well. It was a bitter moment when I realized they were going to trim it down like that. The strange thing is that I now think differently, having used it extensively over the last few days. And it suddenly makes a lot more sense when you realize what the biologists were possibly meant for: As an incentive to fly low over large parts of the planet's surface.

This flying very quickly became the main activity, and the bioscan just a quick reward check. I had to bend my expectations quite a bit at first, but now it feels ok to me. Although I still love the idea that I'm now in the shoes of the old ADS fans. They were in love with fast exploration too, so they missed the ADS. I hope that one day the bioscanner will get the update it deserves and I would like. I certainly wouldn't be against some well designed mini-game that would bring a bit skill and reward into the process. But I have no doubt that should this ever happen, many 'biologists' will start complaining, no matter how well designed the scanner will be then.

I don't exactly understand why you quote me if you write something completely unrelated.

 

[Old Duck]

The odyssey engineering system doesnt appear to be going down to well, along with many other aspects.

Let's talk about engineering in general in ED. I just unlocked drive enhancement research in X4. In order to do this, I had fly from point A to point B within a short time limit. It took me swapping out drives three times on my fastest ship to get this right! Why? Because I assumed the drive with the highest top speed would win. What I didn't take into consideration is how much acceleration would play a role. Come to find out, it took the drive with the lowest top speed to win, because that drive also happens to have the highest acceleration. Huh! I actually learned something about drives in this game as part of researching how to improve drives.

Now tell me, what lessons are to be learned by delivering Fujin Tea?

 

[Flimley]

Now tell me, what lessons are to be learned by delivering Fujin Tea?

it’s most likely a good diuretic, keeping you out of the cockpit.

Flimley

 

[Sysmon]

Sorry, I should have made myself clearer.

I find it fascinating how people invent excuses for something that's just tedious unfunny game design masquerading as "content" and "gameplay loop".

At least having the scanner upgradeable would add a bit to the incentive to do anything more than buying a dumb suit with the new content for non pew-pew people.

In RL we usually take and process more samples than just three. However, we also get much more detailed results and get to spend time analysing them. That would probably be considered busywork by many though.

EDOs science is more like stamp collection, unfortunately. A loop where skill (not reaction times or rhythm sense) would determine the sample quality and thereby how many samples were needed and perhaps the payout (quality) as well, could be fun.

S

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Elite Feet gameplay loop where you spend most of the time flying your ship using eyeball mk1 because of inadequate on-foot gameplay mechanics.

Classic.

 

[Melvich]

Elite Feet gameplay loop where you spend most of the time flying your ship using eyeball mk1 because of inadequate on-foot gameplay mechanics.

Classic.

Don't forget the bit where the planets are all so boring to fly over too! Spotting plastic plants is now the highlight

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Don't forget the bit where the planets are all so boring to fly over too! Spotting plastic plants is now the highlight

I mean, I do get the appeal of just flying across planetary surfaces and I've come across a few pretty ones, but as I said earlier it's all ruined due to the engine not being able to decide what it wants to render and as such it's a juddery, glitchy mess.

I really hope FDev will be able to get a handle on this.

 

[sandkid]

Reading through the odyssey forums since it’s release. The general overtone to me is one of, (for want of a better word) Meh.
Not really seeing a plethora of awesome comments or discussions about any particular aspect. No copious threads discussing game play tactics. The odyssey engineering system doesnt appear to be going down to well, along with many other aspects. The odyssey screenshot thread is nice though.

Development of this game seems like the gaming equivalent of word salad. Non focused and throw everything in (CQC.Powerplay,multiplap) until something works. Anyway, let’s hope it all ends well.

Flimley

This has been my impression as well. Elite has always produced beautiful screenshots and that is good gameplay unto itself (yet another tally for the value of immersion sans 'gameplay loops'). That said, even those seem less frequent than normal. Our exploration crowd seems a lot quieter (to me), too. Could be waiting for the next lore drop beyond Salvation, or just piddling about on legs but not finding much else new...

I know my personal opinion is 'meh', but I'm console so my opinion is generally ignored.
That said...the recent news of no VR work for Odyssey, at all, has really cemented my decision to not buy come Fall.

I was really hoping for VR content on console, as well as ship interiors eventually (back when it launched on console)...but it just seems that, for the last year now, each piece of bad news is just followed by more bad news. An alpha mere weeks before launch. FCs that are glorified stations and cost billions to buy, millions to maintain. CGs that require materials to complete. It just...it keeps getting worse with no end in sight.

Space Legs looks cool, but it also looks really shallow. Not full expansion feature-rich. I dunno...getting excited for Elite was hard enough during a multi-year content drought. Heck, there hasn't been a new ship in over a year...now? Now it's more of a game of guessing what else FDev isn't going to do.

 

[PureEvilPie]

I will give Odyssey this - the actual settlements themselves are good. They are detailed and there are a fair few mechanics involved with them. Unfortunately they are not integrated with Elite as a whole so it feels like a bit of a waste of time. Also, spending $40 on just that single good gameplay feature is mad. Everything else in Odyssey sucks - the concourses are boring, the 'atmo planets' are just horizons non-atmo planets but with a tinted skybox, exploration now has some static plants that do nothing and conflict zones are some bizarre zone capture gamemode with no variation at all unlike the space conflict zones where you could get capital ships arriving.

They kept banging on about the sphere of combat but there are no enemy ships or SRV's!! They couldn't even be bothered to update the old Horizon's places of interest to keep up with Odyssey, they look TERRIBLE and you can't even do anything with them.

 

[Lone_star]

 

[Ronzer]

I'm going to use just one example of what Frontier could've easily implemented in terms of gameplay:

Artemis suit engineering - create a mod that allows the concurrent collection of data samples when plant scanning (you could argue that the existing loop is already poor design and nothing but artificially extending the time it takes to complete this task, but let's not go there now).

Bam, just like that, not very complicated to implement, and would've provided a meaningful QoL improvement that players could aim for when it comes to the engineering grind loop.

But nope. Instead we get the exact same copy/paste mods we get for the more combat focused suits, which you could consider nigh on useless on the Artemis - I scored a pre-engineered G2 Artemis with an added melee mod. For what? Punch plants?

This is just one example but I could give you countless more across EDH & EDO, and I'm not a game designer but a non-creative working in Finance of all places.

Frontier have hired people who are supposed to design gameplay for a living, and yet they can't even come up with basics such as the above.

You mean things that are grating? I do have a list for that. Over the years, I have the distinct impression they see all the options, and they implement the least enjoyable one. Why? It's possible it keeps more people engaged, and hopeful. Im not even kidding. But I'd say it only seems like there's more of that in EDO, since EDO has more stuff to do. But yeah, some things I didn't like about EDH are still in EDO, and they seem like simple things to fix. I, for one, liked the bio scanner as it was, but was excited they may change it after so many requests. Then they remove it, instead of just trying something different. Missed oppurtunity, among others.

 

[Montgomery Dog]

You mean things that are grating? I do have a list for that. Over the years, I have the distinct impression they see all the options, and they implement the least enjoyable one. Why? It's possible it keeps more people engaged, and hopeful. Im not even kidding. But I'd say it only seems like there's more of that in EDO, since EDO has more stuff to do. But yeah, some things I didn't like about EDH are still in EDO, and they seem like simple things to fix. I, for one, liked the bio scanner as it was, but was excited they may change it after so many requests. Then they remove it, instead of just trying something different. Missed oppurtunity, among others.

They didn't even remove it. It just plays itself.

 

[Ronzer]

hey didn't even remove it. It just plays itself

Oh, I meant they removed any sort of interaction to get a sample, other than holding the trigger down. The thing still spins, so naturally I tried getting rings to line up, but it forces you to just hold the button long, and voila.
How about this? On foot, I have ground icons that shows where my ship and SRV are, and where turrets are, etc. If I get in my SRV or ship, those are gone. Why not just have it so the icons show up in the ship and SRV in EDO and Horizons by the way.
It's possible the on-foot stuff uses a completely new, better system. Have you noticed you can jump and walk around on top of your ship, SRV, anything, but an SRV or ship cant do anything like that. Apply it to ships, thanks.

 

[Sossidgeman]

People for years demanded FD do space legs.

FD did space legs.

Apparently what some people imagined it would be turned out to be not what they imagined.

Is anyone even slightly surprised?

The space legs aren't the problem.
Nobody expected the UI to rearranged into time wasting or for planets to be turned into boring flat copies of each other.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The space legs aren't the problem.
Nobody expected the UI to rearranged into time wasting or for planets to be turned into boring flat copies of each other.

Yeah, can't say i'm amused with the UI changes. The planet generation is also a head scratcher. I mean, FD wanted to improve the terrain generation, this certainly wasn't their aim so i'll put that down to the technical challenges with the hope they improve things. With the legs activities though, that was clearly designed with intent.

 

[askavir]

Elite Feet gameplay loop where you spend most of the time flying your ship using eyeball mk1 because of inadequate on-foot gameplay mechanics.

Classic.

Well since your thread's point is that EDO is too detached from the rest of the game, this comment seems quite contradictory, the issue now is that the exobiology loop also requires flying the ship? So the EDO gameplay should blend into the rest of the game, or not?

If there is something in EDO that is quite blended into the rest of the game is the exo-biology loop.

1 - Use the FSS from your ship in space to locate planets with biological signals.

2 - Fly your ship into those planets and use the DSS probes to generate the blue map.

3 - Filter the map to which type of signals you wish to look for and fly down to the surface.

4 - Either fly your ship at low altitude to look for stuff, or use the SRV. I prefer to use the ship, it usually takes about 20 seconds tops to spot the first plant pockets flying low over the surface. Once you pick a plant pocket to land / stop, you can usually already see more pockets of planets in the distance. I would prefer it was a bit more difficult to find, but at least it's better than the old quest marker arrows "special things exactly here!" we had before. The new system also spreads the POIs much more naturally across the entire planet, instead of having empty 1:1 planets with only a handful of small places with POIs.

5 - Disembark on foot or with SRV, scan the first sample. Either go on foot, or use the SRV, or use the ship to move to other pockets, depending on distance and how many pockets you can see from your location. If I can see the pockets I use the SRV, else I take the ship.

6 - After collecting all the samples (or scanning additional signals), run / drive back to the ship, fly back to a port, and deliver the samples.

 

[Monk]

Like the rest of the game...ya know...to do...stuff.

^seriously...I play ED and now EDO to just do whatever fancies me that the game enables. Granted, I find myself back in my ship more and more now that I've pew pewed a few baddies and played with the tools. EDO is really now just an extension of what I've always done...whatever