Only you, FdEv, only you...

[dxm55]

I'm all ears to a robust discussion about rebalancing engineering, but to suggest "newbies" need access to apex-level engineering mods out the door just because others might have it is a garbage argument.

Sure, it doesn't take skill to engineer, but it should take planning. You shouldn't just be starting out and going "Right, time to whack on that G5 mod". If that's the case, then what the heck is the point of G1-4 mods? Just remove them, collapse the requisite costs of G1-4 into the cost of the G5, rebadge the G5 mod as simply "the mod" and be done with it.

All the complaints about Palin's temporary disappearance is fomenting the fact that engineering mods are too accissble, and too permanent, and that the player-base is now over-reliant on having "G5 mods or gtfo".

There's heaps of room for a discussion about rebalancing engineering mods. Maybe mods need to be more like Synthesis, in that any one of, or all of the following:

• Maybe you can't repair a module with a modification. Repairing it removes the mod.
• Maybe you can't remove a module with a modification. Removing it removes the mod.
• Maybe engineering modifications shouldn't be rebuyable on ship loss.
• Maybe modifications need more substantial negative drawbacks at the higher-end.
• Maybe (for a single example of the above) G5 dirty drives should result in overheating your ship every time you boost?
• Maybe prolonged use of a modified fitting causes degradation over time.

Suddenly, G1-G3 becomes your go-to every-day engineering, because it's cheap to replace and gives you a routine advantage in the fight, but when you want to guarantee being at peak performance, you mod a G4-5 module, knowing it'll be dead at the end of the day. The materials needed to do a G5 mod could fit out =~ 10 G3 mods, or even 80-odd G1 mods...

Then engineering, and specifically when and how you undertake that engineering, becomes an actual planned process which affects your game on a day-to-day basis, and not just a set-and-forget thing. Of course, someone might scream "But what about my optimised FSD while i'm 20KLY in the black?!?!". Again... robust discussion...

• Maybe (more expensive than the mod) synthesis can repair damage to an engineered module
• Maybe engineering can be done with a module in the field
• Heaps of other things I haven't thought of, or have but haven't written here.

Again, all this Palin stuff has brought to the surface the fact that Engineering is in a pretty sorry state at the moment, where people consider G5 mods as needing to be "Noob-accessible" where the reality is they were intended for end-game outfitting. So yeah, a robust discussion on the problems with engineering... got all day for that. But the concept that G5 should be readily accessible to the new player is trashbin stuff.

Hey, honestly, I'm all for doing engineering with actual gameplay elements than to run the repeated gauntlet of bloody "Fetch, Rover... fetch boy" material runs.


See how KSP does it. Encourages players to fit modules here and there and then see if it works or blows up. I wouldn't mind screwing around with something like that.
Gathering mats and then putting them together in an engine "schematic" to try for a G5 thruster.
Then take it out for a test run. And if doesn't work.... BOOM. The mats go up in smoke. My ship takes damage, my modules take damage, and it's back to the drawing board.

At least it would be goddamned more interesting, and entertaining even, then the current materials grind.

 

[Alec Turner]

Sigh, not this again. Having the inter-species war which has been raging in the galaxy for months (years?) now actually have a tangible effect on players is fantastic! More of this please FD.

Case in point, the recent heightened Thargoid activity in the Pleiedes wreaked havoc with the tale end of last week's Buckyball Race, with it becoming almost impossible to complete a run without being hyperdicted. I think I speak for most of the club when I say we are not bitter about this. It was hilarious and awesome!

 

[galahad2069]

• Maybe you can't repair a module with a modification. Repairing it removes the mod.
• Maybe you can't remove a module with a modification. Removing it removes the mod.
• Maybe engineering modifications shouldn't be rebuyable on ship loss.
• Maybe modifications need more substantial negative drawbacks at the higher-end.
• Maybe (for a single example of the above) G5 dirty drives should result in overheating your ship every time you boost?
• Maybe prolonged use of a modified fitting causes degradation over time.

Worst ideas I've ever heard.

Engineering a single ship from the ground up is quite a huge grind. Having to do it all over again just because you had an unlucky training / tournament fight with your friends would be the worst kind of gameplay ever.

 

[Jmanis]

Worst ideas I've ever heard.

Engineering a single ship from the ground up is quite a huge grind. Having to do it all over again just because you had an unlucky training / tournament fight with your friends would be the worst kind of gameplay ever.

DD G3 is 1 x T3, 1 x T2, 1 x T1 mats. That's a cakewalk. Or are you talking about re-engineering G5 every single time, in which case I guess you didn't read a word of my post.

 

[galahad2069]

G5 DD is hardly a requirement

G5 DD is the single most important upgrade in the game.

 

[dxm55]

G5 DD is the single most important upgrade in the game.

Actually the G5 Increased Range FSD mod with either Mass Mgr or Deep Charge is the most important one.

 

[Saool]

... could have seriiously have had the idea of locking down an Engineer needed to up your drives to the max while simultaneously trying to make the game more newb friendly.

Only you.

Monday AM - FDEV office, Cambridge.

Dev: "How are the forums looking following our new update. Are they excited?"

Community team: "You don't know how to program apparently, and are in idiot."

Dev: "what?"

Community team: "Wide spread complaints and we are being slagged off."

Dev: "what? They said they wanted stuff like this?"

Community team: "Nope, this is the worst game ever."

Dev: "Right #&@! it. Stop telling them stuff. Sod listening to them. We will do what we think is good and they can like it or #&#/ off and play something else. They can winge on the forums all they like, I'm not listening any more."

Community team: "Obviously we still need to talk to them and be polite as that is our job."

Dev: "Whatever."

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

I'm all ears to a robust discussion about rebalancing engineering, but to suggest "newbies" need access to apex-level engineering mods out the door just because others might have it is a garbage argument.

Yes, this is getting overlooked a lot. In the original Red Dead online you had to grind a lot to get the best guns and horse to ride. In the GTA with CJ (story mode) you started out on a bicycle You had neither the weapons or the health to break into the military facility and take the jet plane. Assassins Creed, you progress up to the best weapons.

Every game has a grind for progression. Every noob in an online arena is going to be inferior to more established players, that is progression. It would be terrible if you had played a game solid for 6 months and a new user has access to all that you have within a week.

I’ve been going through that “What are you doing” thread (I think it was designed for newcomers), many in there seem happy to be grading up in a slightly protracted way, the sense of achievement when it’s done is something more experienced players may have forgotten.

I’ve got over 100,000,000cr in the game and tons of mats through my style of play. It’s so damn easy for me to buy a cheap ship (up to about Python level), A-Grade it, mod everything up to G3 level (at least), fly it for a couple of days and ditch it. Nice for me that I can afford to experiment with different builds and configurations and it makes me feel a bit like one of the other kids on the Wonka tour of the chocolate factory but then I remember, I started out in a Sidewinder just like everyone else. I ran a few missions without re-buy funds like we all know you shouldn’t but do at some point. I kind of miss that edginess, that risk. I cant remember the last time I ever worried about re-buy and my mainstay is a Python that costs around 11mil a pop. With careful manipulation of a mission board or load out, I can earn that in one mission, 3 at most.

The point I suppose is, every single game has progression, you’d get bored quickly if they didn’t and hardly anyone would bother playing after, say, 6 months, if a brand new commander could have what you have within a week.

It’s funny but I’m not seeing many noobs complaining about this issue, only people who bang on about how long they’ve been playing this game. If you want a game where you start with everything you’re going to get, go and play Sonic the Hedgehog.

I think the grind is important, it separates new from experienced as both would really wish it to do, otherwise the shelf life of this game is doomed. If that sounds elitist, it’s the name of the game.

 

[dxm55]

There is NO progression in this game because there is no semblence of levelling up or ranking up in the traditional RPG sense.

You can go from starter to Anaconda in 12 hours, depending on your SKILL alone.
Your PF rank is just mostly a status symbol, with the one exception of accessing Shinrarta Dezhra. And even then, once you can buy an Annie, you should be there for Trade rank at least.
Maybe your Fed/Imperial rank will mean something as they get you access to ships, but even those can be breezed through with a little help from the Internet about where to Grind.

So how can you stop a returning player who's reset his account from starting the engineering game early on? You can''t.
As long as he's done the prequisites..... Traveled more than 300Ly from his start point for Martuuk, for eg... he gets an invitation and can hit the road immediately.

But things like this are not apparent from the true blue newbie.

So really, it all comes down to the actual player him/herself.

There is no need for any sort of artificial wall to prevent someone from going for G5 right off the bat, just because some of you veterans feel insecure and elitist about your place in the pecking order.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

G5 DD is the single most important upgrade in the game.

Going to disagree here. I was completing elite level assassination missions in my Clipper with g3 dirty drives before I unlocked Palin. The only mod I'd not want to give up is the increased range FSD.

 

[Jmanis]

G5 DD is the single most important upgrade in the game.

If you can't achieve anything without G5 DD, the problem is in your ballcourt.

 

[Rat Catcher]

G5 DD is the single most important upgrade in the game.

No, G5 Increased Range with Mass Manager is.

 

[Northpin]

Chill out, omg such ❄❄❄

Palin will settle downtown, Arque 4E

 

[galahad2069]

DD G3 is 1 x T3, 1 x T2, 1 x T1 mats. That's a cakewalk. Or are you talking about re-engineering G5 every single time, in which case I guess you didn't read a word of my post.

I read every single word of your post. Including these ones: "Maybe engineering modifications shouldn't be rebuyable on ship loss".

Okay, let's say you were participating in a PvP League / Prism's SFN wingfight. You ended up at the rebuy screen. You lost all engineering mods on all modules. Next round in 15 minutes. You either have to reengineer everything to G5 or content yourself with G3 mods and be pretty damn sure that you won't stand a chance against G5 modded ships. Wow, great game design.

And all that at the cost of a heck of a lot of materials you'll have to grind your stern off not to run out of.
No thanks.

And what would be the benefits of such a system? Because I cannot see any. It certainly wouldn't balance anything, quite the contrary. The difference between a G3 modded and a G5 modded ship is substantial in almost every single aspect.

There really are severe balance issues in the game (like, for instance, uncounterable no-skill weapons like packhounds against the weapons on hulltanks, damage-increasing ammo, the idiotic canopy mechanism and countless others), but those have nothing to do with the grades of engineering.

 

[dxm55]

I read every single word of your post. Including these ones: "Maybe engineering modifications shouldn't be rebuyable on ship loss".

Okay, let's say you were participating in a PvP League / Prism's SFN wingfight. You ended up at the rebuy screen. You lost all engineering mods on all modules. Next round in 15 minutes. You either have to reengineer everything to G5 or content yourself with G3 mods and be pretty damn sure that you won't stand a chance against G5 modded ships. Wow, great game design.

And all that at the cost of a heck of a lot of materials you'll have to grind your stern off not to run out of.
No thanks.

And what would be the benefits of such a system? Because I cannot see any. It certainly wouldn't balance anything, quite the contrary. The difference between a G3 modded and a G5 modded ship is substantial in almost every single aspect.

There really are severe balance issues in the game (like, for instance, uncounterable no-skill weapons like packhounds against the weapons on hulltanks, damage-increasing ammo, the idiotic canopy mechanism and countless others), but those have nothing to do with the grades of engineering.

Maybe the PVP league should rule out engineering as a test of player skills rather than ship stats.

Then again, PVP ships were really built to gank weren't they?

 

[galahad2069]

If you can't achieve anything without G5 DD, the problem is in your ballcourt.

Sure, I must be a really, really bad pilot, although I don't remember your name in any of the top PvP teams TBH.
Which one was it exactly in which you were using G3 DD's against other players?

 

[Jmanis]

Sure, I must be a really, really bad pilot, although I don't remember your name in any of the top PvP teams TBH.
Which one was it exactly in which you were using G3 DD's against other players?

Ah yes, there it is, the one, niche example out of the entire game, which apparently justifies the entire direction the game has to take.

Bravo, bravo.

 

[galahad2069]

No, G5 Increased Range with Mass Manager is.

Come to think of it, you must be right. Even I have one of those in my taxi DBX.

 

[galahad2069]

Ah yes, there it is, the one, niche example out of the entire game, which apparently justifies the entire direction the game has to take.

Bravo, bravo.

Well you were the one who started to speak about balance. But feel free to name another niche example out of the entire game in which balance is more important than in competitive PvP.

 

[Jmanis]

Well you were the one who started to speak about balance. But feel free to name another niche example out of the entire game in which balance is more important than in competitive PvP.

And you really think "Everyone must have this mod" is balance in PvP?