Open-Only in PP2.0?

Some players are simply not fun to play with. They cheat, bully, gank, and routinely violate the unwritten rules of fair play. In every MMO I’ve ever played that has had open PvP, the usual suspects are such a huge problem that they’ll depopulate a game’s servers, until the development team either implements a PvP switch, or goes bankrupt due to lack of paying players. At best, one in twenty players will opt into PvP… if those development teams are to be believed.

Bizarrely, despite this pattern seen in other games, a significant majority of players voluntarily choose Open as their preferred mode. The usual suspects are conspicuously absent, except around CGs abdicate handful of systems known to have significant player traffic, and even then they’re not much of threat to a prepared player, or those who play outside their local prime time.

Something is keeping down the population of usual suspects, and I believe it is Frontier’s tri-mode system. When you allow players to choose, on a session by session basis, who gets play with them, you get environment that is fun to play in for everyone… except the usual suspects. Those least interested in PvP, or interacting with other players in general, get to enjoy their game in peace, while the usual suspects discover that they aren’t the mighty PvPers they picture themselves to be, but annoyances that can be ignored… or swatted if they target the wrong player. Sooner or later, unable to get kills while getting killed in return, they leave for greener pastures.

The same was true of PowerPlay 1.0, and is doubly true in PowerPlay 2.0. In 1.0, the usual suspects, not pledged to any Power, briefly swarmed around Power capitals, regardless of whether fortification merits were outgoing or incoming, They soon vanished, long before most of those interested in the idea of PowerPlay quit due to the extremely poor PvE activities forming the base of the feature. That pretty much confined spontaneous PvP to combat expansions, or the extremely rare encounter between fortifiers and underminers.

Frontier’s networking solution for this game is extremely poor for direct confrontational PvP. Players host instances, not Frontier, which is ill suited to instancing players from different geographical regions, and the number of players in an instance is capped by the hosting player’s equipment. Open is not one giant instance, but thousands of individual instances where, when the stars align, you might be matched with someone you don’t know. Furthermore, player’s frequently have to jump through hoops just to be instances with their friends, let alone strangers. And of course, the reverse is true: with instances hosted by players, it’s fairly easy to “poison the well,” guaranteeing a private instance at the expense of other player’s transition times.

Finally, there is the question of the behavior of Old School PowerPlayers themselves. Not whether they are fun to play with when encountered in the game, I have had nothing but positive encounters to date, but in general. They should be the type of player significantly more likely to choose Open than the general playerbase. And yet, with one notable exception, the message we get from them is “We bravely do our work in Open. It’s everyone else who is hiding in Solo/PG.” So the question here becomes: Is the Power Playerbase significantly less likely to freely choose Open, despite near universal claims to the contrary, or is instancing simply that bad?

Personally, I think it’s the latter, not the former. Personally, anecdotally, and experimentally, everything I’ve seen indicates that unless both players actively cooperate with each other, you’re only likely to instance with strangers physically near you, and only if a potential host can support multiple players. Which means that even if a player is online during the daily global peak, unless they live in Europe, they might as well be playing in Solo. Thus, Open Only will not produce the results you think it will.

On the other hand, if instancing is actually good, and the Power Playerbase as a whole can’t be trusted to obey their own house rules to gain what is ultimately an ephemeral advantage, then why on Earth would anyone trust them to play by the unwritten rules of fair play? That type of player is not fun to play with. And if there are enough of them, PowerPlay 2.0 will wither on the vine, just like PowerPlay 1.0 did, as will any hope of Frontier ever adding any meaningful PvP content in the future.

YMMV
You can beat any instancing and TZ issues with some commitment, and poor networking PvP has never been an obstacle... except for lag introduced by SLF order spamming. The fact is that FDEV introduced a R100 perk which seems to be missed: the -100% rebuy cost when being kaboomed by enemy pledged ships. Now that's clearly oriented, besides it doesn't seem so explicit, to encourage PvP.

On the other side, everyone can argue "credits are not a problem" true, and that makes me again thinking that it's being kaboomed by another player what makes a difference. One can go boom dozens for NPCs, but goes mad because another player nailed his/her ship... may be those are "that type of player is not fun to play with" and then goes complain "tried open, gone boom and never again".

Bottom line: it's a psychological/behavioural matter, not a technical one.
 
Bottom line: it's a psychological matter, not a technical one.

Indeed.

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Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
You said PvP kills games—that was the point. And it's a false point.
Did I? A quote from the post(s) referred to would be helpful.

While there is certainly a market for PvP games those games don't appeal to all players.

.... and I don't expect that players asking to make PvP optional on those games get a very favourable response from players who enjoy PvP. Noting that some developers do add PvE gameplay options as optional aspects of otherwise PvP only games.

In the case of this game, where PvP is entirely optional, it has attracted players with little to no interest in in-the-same-instance PvP - yet players who can't accept that the PvP is optional in this game seek to either remove content from players who choose not to play with them or penalise them for engaging in pan-modal game features from any mode other than Open.
 
Thanks for the correction... though I don't think there was a "migration" of players to Private/Solo due to the "meta," but a general movement to quit playing PowerPlay in general because the PvE was simply that bad. The only reason why I remained pledged after I quit earning merits was a) for roleplaying purposes, and b) so that the mostly hypothetical PowerPlayer opposition would be able to attack me without penalty.

But that "bemoaning others for doing the exact same thing" is what I'm talking about. Given how universal that complaint is, either the PowerPlayerbase at the time was significantly less likely to play in Open than the general playerbase, of which a significant majority played in Open, or how this game is set up is ill suited for the kind of confrontational PvP that they want. I think it's the latter, not the former, but if it is the former, I'd much rather that they stay in Solo/PG rather than ruin my experience in Open.
At the time, thats how as someone for whom it had become my primary gameplay style within Elite, it seemed. The quitting from those who did Powerplay passionately came later in two 'waves' (not literal), the initial batch being those like myself who'd realised that there was no way to compete with such a low-skill low-attention meta and didn't want to waste our time with it going forward, then a second wave as people finally became bored with the model, or moved onto the next cr/hr exploit.

What it left (I'm inferring from people like RebelYell and Rubbernukes posts) were an extremely die-hard base that seems to have been open-only in their playstyles, and perhaps didn't want to see it return to that god-awful period (post initial six months) I describe. I suspect that is where the confliction between my talking points (how it was, and what killed it) vs. theirs, in respect to your confusion in your second paragraph?
 
Powerplay pvp was always the same, it was supposed to be endgame content for people who dont find pve challanging or who find it just boring. Sadly, for those vet players. new powerplay is terrible idea, new system giving sirious rewards for noobs and casuals, make OOPP impossible (doesnt matter that devs are "moniitoring" just forget this) Also PP2.0 being something done by mass of players, will lead to siituations where solo/pg minimaxers will impact PP in significant way, it will be much worse than PP 1.0 in this regard. I m curious about state of PP2.0 when masses of grinders unlock all bonuses/modules, i dont think it will be more healthy than PP1.0, just better becouse disfunc system is now replaced with something that mostly work, but consumed BGS part of powerplay in the process, only side benefit of this, are some rather useless activities like salvaging getting new live, but overall it's dissapointment
 
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Powerplay pvp was always the same, it was supposed to be endgame content for people who dont find pve challanging or who find it just boring. Sadly, for those vet players. new powerplay is terrible idea, new system giving sirious rewards for noobs and casuals, make OOPP impossible (doesnt matter that devs are "moniitoring" just forget this) Also PP2.0 being something done by mass of players, will lead to siituations where solo/pg minimaxers will impact PP in significant way, it will be much worse than PP 1.0 in this regard. I m curious about state of PP2.0 when masses of grinders unlock all bonuses/modules, i dont think it will be more healthy than PP1.0, just better becouse disfunc system is now replaced with something that mostly work, but consumed BGS part of powerplay in the process, only side benefit of this, are some rather useless activities like salvaging getting new live, but overall it's dissapointment
They could still add +100 ranks to powers, or even add new powers, new perks... NEW MODULES.
 
So "endgame" that players can pledge immediately after being locked out of the starter system by gaining their very first rank increment.
It's by design to give incetive for more players to participate in powerplay, but I remind you, update was 3GB, there is about 0 new gameplay loops, just reactivation of rares trading and salvaging as viable economic activities, if you are really deep into, lets call this "hardcore powerplay" you get nothing in return, actully you lost incetive to participate in BGS wars, you lost incetive to commit criminal activities in BGS, and all those things were important in PP 1.0, sure, people say, you can still do them, but if you are endgame player, who dont need to grind anymore, then significant part of gameplay ceased to exist for you. I think it was possible for ED to make PP system that was fixing PP1 issues, but retained more BGS gameplay in PP 2.0, consensual pvp will be even harder to get becouse maximized rewards, as mentioned will lead to masses in solo/pg, even just bonuses to play in open would be better, instead we get even more of a SP game, cant blame people who like SP games to like new system
 
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It's by design to give incetive for more players to participate in powerplay, but I remind you, update was 3GB, there is about 0 new gameplay loops, just reactivation of rares trading and salvaging as viable economic activities, if you are really deep into, lets call this "hardcore powerplay" you get nothing in return, actully you lost incetive to participate in BGS wars, you lost incetive to commit criminal activities in BGS, and all those things were important in PP 1.0, sure, people say, you can still do them, but if you are endgame player, who dont need to grind anymore, then significant part of gameplay ceased to exist for you. I think it was possible for ED to make PP system that was fixing PP1 issues, but retained more BGS gameplay in PP 2.0, consensual pvp will be even harder to get becouse maximized rewards, as mentioned will lead to masses in solo/pg, even just bonuses to play in open would be better, instead we get even more of a SP game, cant blame people who like SP games to like new system

It’s funny, from my perspective, PowerPlay 2.0 has revitalized many of the old gameplay loops that were sacrificed to t appease the unappeasable demands of the “I want it NOW!” crowd, including their latest victim: my habit of scanning USSs along my flight path for any opportunities that may arise.

It’s also given me greater motivation to engage in PvE combat, as well as evaluating fellow players as potential targets of opportunity… though I sincerely doubt I’d ever take such an opportunity should it arise: it makes no sense from a risk/reward perspective nor a time/reward one. Still, the option is there, should I choose to indulge.

But that indulgence is contingent on Open being chosen freely by the opposition. I’ve gone “marauding” as an experiment enough times in this game to know I’d quickly get annoyed by the unsportsmanlike behavior of the usual suspects, should such behavior become the norm, rather than the rare exception.
 
It’s funny, from my perspective, PowerPlay 2.0 has revitalized many of the old gameplay loops that were sacrificed to t appease the unappeasable demands of the “I want it NOW!” crowd, including their latest victim: my habit of scanning USSs along my flight path for any opportunities that may arise.

It’s also given me greater motivation to engage in PvE combat, as well as evaluating fellow players as potential targets of opportunity… though I sincerely doubt I’d ever take such an opportunity should it arise: it makes no sense from a risk/reward perspective nor a time/reward one. Still, the option is there, should I choose to indulge.

But that indulgence is contingent on Open being chosen freely by the opposition. I’ve gone “marauding” as an experiment enough times in this game to know I’d quickly get annoyed by the unsportsmanlike behavior of the usual suspects, should such behavior become the norm, rather than the rare exception.
From risk/reward standpoint, there is nothing more rewarding than attacking fellow players, especally that in pp2.0 merits are instant, also it's rewarding to just lose other players, especially pvpers time, You involved in harrasing enemy player, may benefit your hauler that make to station, that otherise would get interdicted and likely killed, PP in solo/pg is removing those gameplay loops and also removes builds for those gameplay loops. In PP1.0, we had to take UM merits to control system for gratification, I remember in FLC, when big merits "sniper" got killed by enemy pvper, it cost us entire cycle, those big turnarounds, that are known only for people heavy involved in old PP are also missing in new PP.
 
"yet players who can't accept that the PvP is optional in this game seek to either remove content from players who choose not to play with them or penalise them for engaging in pan-modal game features from any mode other than Open."

I would think that players who can't accept the optional PvP this game provides, would prefer to play true multi-player games that don't allow this like Star Citizen or Eve? Or are they just whining because they can't force their gameplay on others?

Now if this game were to create a mechanic that would immediately make a player's ship invincible given an unprovoked attack, and give them the ability to one-shot the attacker into oblivion, I might enjoy that... :ROFLMAO:
 
I would think that players who can't accept the optional PvP this game provides, would prefer to play true multi-player games that don't allow this like Star Citizen or Eve? Or are they just whining because they can't force their gameplay on others?

Now if this game were to create a mechanic that would immediately make a player's ship invincible given an unprovoked attack, and give them the ability to one-shot the attacker into oblivion, I might enjoy that... :ROFLMAO:
I m whining, becouse solo/pg are enforcing their dull pve gameplay on me, nobody enforcing anything on anybnody would be pp with benefits in open, and those benefits would reflect denger and difficulty of obtaining merits in open mode
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I m whining, becouse solo/pg are enforcing their dull pve gameplay on me, nobody enforcing anything on anybnody would be pp with benefits in open, and those benefits would reflect denger and difficulty of obtaining merits in open mode
What is to be expected of a PvE* game with entirely optional PvP?

*: noting that while affecting the BGS, Powerplay, etc. may be considered to be indirect asynchronous competition, a.k.a. PvP, or just "playing the game".
 
I've taken to solo/pg of late. Just to get a swing on how it is as regards fun. I'll admit it is! I can move stuff unmolested apart from npcs which are at best, gnats.
I might stick to solo/pg. I can raise hell totally anonymously. I can flip systems, undermine, 5c, do whatever I like with total impunity. I'm liking 👍 this!
Truly.
But....its so predictable, so safe, so boring! Only npcs which are no match even for my type 8. And that doesn't have any weps! I can just avoid and high wake.
Yup this is the life! Piracy and chaos await.
 
What is to be expected of a PvE* game with entirely optional PvP?

*: noting that while affecting the BGS, Powerplay, etc. may be considered to be indirect asynchronous competition, a.k.a. PvP, or just "playing the game".
it's not competition, when one side can be invisible and untouchable for other side and still compete, it's called grindfest, not indirect competition
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
it's not competition, when one side can be invisible and untouchable for other side and still compete, it's called grindfest, not indirect competition
Players who may find that their actions are opposed are in competition - even if they never instance together. Just because it does not include in-the-same-instance PvP does not mean that it is not competitive - it just does not require any player to engage in PvP.
 
Players who may find that their actions are opposed are in competition - even if they never instance together. Just because it does not include in-the-same-instance PvP does not mean that it is not competitive - it just does not require any player to engage in PvP.
I may sound narcissistic, but trust me, solo/pg only guys have no idea what they are talking about, and what make a diffrence
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I may sound narcissistic, but trust me, solo/pg only guys have no idea what they are talking about, and what make a diffrence
It's a likely consequence of making an attempt to tell players who play by the rules of the game that it should be played differently just because some players like an optional aspect of the game that no player needs to engage in....
 
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