rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
Great idea! +rep
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Great idea! +rep
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
What about Solo mode then? That's a single player PVE mode. Not only you're vulnerable to player fire, you are completely invisible by them.
Yes, it's silly, but it's not going away at all, so while we already have Solo, we might as well have Open PVE mode, which would be multiplayer and PVE only equivalent of Solo mode. (And no, groups are not that - see my posts above about that).
I must disagree that since we have one it's no step at all to have the other. Even in solo an NPC can attack you for no reason- and your choices are to fight or flee, not "lol this is the mode where I'm invincible". The difference is that human players are typically far more deadly, and some people derive real offense from assumed malevolent intent.
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
NPC's never attack you for no reason. And yes, the intent is a massive difference. And even if some people do take offence, is that such a bad thing? Who said it's not OK to take offence at such a thing?
PvP is a Co-Op gameplay as well though...
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
Irrelevant in the context of this thread.
And who's to be the judge of that in this case?
Thank god i was quoting someone...
Also, it is not irrelevant because Co-Op does not mean PvE only.
I agree. But, that's why I used the word "only" in my description of Co-Op mode ("A multiplayer co-operative only experience"). Open will remain the mode where everything is possible, including co-operative gameplay. Co-Op is simply Open -PvP, everything except PvP. The other modes follow this pattern, they are Open minus something.
True, but that's exactly why I think the mode should be called Co-Op and not OpenPVE, because the mode (as described by the OP) is not just PvE, it's also multiplayer co-operative only gameplay.
Every mode is PvE, after all. It's just that some modes also have PvP (PG, Open).
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Sole Hunter
Banned
When you click on open, you inherently agree with the consequences associated with playing in such conditions.
if you take offense to other players playing the game differently then switch mode or go play Jurassic park.
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It wasn't logic, its history. Read it, its fun. It also shows how when a society decides to divide itself along the lines of absolutism it then falls into inevitable decline and destruction.
What I propose is inclusive, all players in one mode, open. We all, fight, trade, explore, mine, pirate and bounty hunt together, either as an alliance or in opposition. That's society.
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rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
Yes I agree. (No need for a snarky comment though).
That's the whole point of this thread - to provide an open environment for the people that want to have multiplayer experience in an open environment, without the PVP.
That's all there is to it. Currently they play in Solo or Group. Or Jurassic Park. So you can't see them in your game anyway. Keeping that in mind, 2 questions then:
1. Why are you so opposed to Open PVE mode?
2. What difference does it make to you if I play in Solo or hypothetical Open PVE mode?
Sole Hunter
Banned
Because the community is already enough divided as it is and it's a waste of resources that could be spent somewhere else like creating new content.
You already have private groups for that sole purpose. As much as I despise Mobius, they are the perfect example of such an environment of your so described "open" PVE.
All we need is private groups to have parameter group options.
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How about this. One mode. Open. With a player flag to enable PvE mode. If you have your PvE mode set then you appear as a NPC solid block to PvP players, if a PvP attacks a PvE then it spawns an NPC for them to 'defeat' whilst the PvE player continues without realising.
PvE players see all humans as empty blocks but PvP cannot attack them without the spawn happening. PvE players cannot attack humans at all. Simple?
I'm sure some will find some flaws...
PvE players see all humans as empty blocks but PvP cannot attack them without the spawn happening. PvE players cannot attack humans at all. Simple?
I'm sure some will find some flaws...
Mobius is far from a "perfect example" of the sort of environment a significant portion of the player base want. I suspect there are technical limitations to private groups, after all there is this big list of players which has to be managed. A Co-op (OpenPVE) mode wouldn't need a member list and wouldn't be limited by it.
Sole Hunter
Banned
Right because they don't have group options and like you just pointed out private groups have limitations which wouldn't be the case if fdevs could give private groups some extra love.
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rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
OK, the division argument. The community is already divided. Most the vitriol on the forums begins with "I was shot for the lulz" to which we usually see "Git gut" kind of argument. There are people out there that want the sociable experience without the PVP whether you like it or not. They are currently spread across Solo, multiple Groups and also Open (because they decide to risk experiencing PVP in hopes to also get a more friendly social experience).
How is bringing all those people together dividing the community? I think it's actually uniting a certain part of the community that currently doesn't have the opportunity to play together. Why? Because the Private Groups are nowhere close to Open PVE, I have already said why I think so:
They are not fit for that purpose. They are a compete nightmare to manage and operate, from admin perspective. Now if they've had the functionalities I listed above - fine. I would then agree that Open PVE is a waste of resources and should not be developed.
Sadly it's not the case and in the current situation it's definitely worth at least looking at by the developers. Mobius has what, 40k-50k players spread across 3 different groups? How is the fact that all those people would have their own official mode going to affect you, apart from the development time being spent on something you personally don't want? (I didn't ask for multi crew and yet it was developed. I'm also not asking for mining updates and yet we're getting them in Q4. You should be by now used to the fact that the devs aren't always working on the features that you personally want).
And yes, I fully agree there are much more important aspects of the game than Open PVE. That doesn't mean it's not a feature desired by quite a substantial amount of the player base and it's not worth looking at at some point in time.
I'm not saying "implement it tomorrow". I'm saying "FDEV, consider implementing it at some point, because in my opinion it will have a positive effect on the community of your game".
Sole Hunter
Banned
Sorry but your argument is garbage, if this game had 2 million concurrent active players on steam maybe that would be the case but there's very few people still playing this game.
It's been almost 5 years since the release of this game and there's barely any meaningful content that was developed in the last year. Elite genre is niche and whether you like it or not splitting the players in a different game mode to please the tears of the few would be no different than the monstrosity known as CQC.
Instead, fdev should focus their precious hard earned money from selling banana skins on producing high quality content and improving what we already have as a foundation for this game.
We already have an open mode. it wouldn't suck to have safe zones or take full advantage of the system wide security system to enforce "PVE ONLY" content zones like the incursions in EVE online.
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I've been thinking about the flag idea and how it's functionally identical to a new mode.. except you have to create rules around when someone can/cannot alter their flag setting and I think you basically come back to wanting to limit it to a login/logout scenario, so perhaps simply making it a mode is easier/simpler to understand and actually a little better as you can leverage the existing in-combat logout timer to prevent a flag switch in combat.
But, I do like the players appear as NPCs idea, it would have to tie in with instancing tho as the PvP player (or wing) would have to see the real player signature disappear as it is being replaced by the NPC (rather then it splitting in two). I think you'd also have to ensure you never instance PvP on and PvP off players in the same realspace instance because performing the same switcheroo there might be problematic from a technical standpoint, I know Frontier have said they cannot spawn in an NPC when someone combat logs, for example.
I was thinking of another off the wall idea.
After watching this video
[video=youtube;gEtHu3AXw2Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEtHu3AXw2Q&t=42m30s[/video]
I thought...
Imagine a Co-op mode which is identical to Open, with one change. Players in this mode are never instanced with Open players. Of course, this doesn't solve anything, right.. the PvP player will simply enter that mode and engage players. Ok, agreed, but now imagine if Sandro has implemented his Karma system in Open, in all it's glory, such that it tracks player behaviour and can confidently apply mode bans for bad behaviour like ramming, logging, etc. Now, apply Karma to the Co-op mode but increase it's reactiveness 10x so that it applies a mode ban for Co-op for a relatively small number of infractions, next we include a few extra infraction specific to Co-Op and not Open, and PvP action we want to avoid in the mode, like attacking another player outside a CZ, for example.
This idea avoids the issues David was worried about, by not actually removing them altogether but relying on the fact that serial offenders will be mode banned in relatively short order. This mode ban can be thought of, from the perspective of other players in Co-op as being a bit like a prison sentence for crimes committed, except the terms (length of mode ban) would be much shorter.. something like a couple of weeks or so. Sure, some players might accidentally trigger the mode ban, reckless flying causing deaths being the most likely, but the price they pay is perhaps 2 weeks ban from one mode and they still have Open, PG and solo to play in so it's not the end of the world for them.
It's crazy, but it just might work. And.. it doesn't appear to me to require a lot of extra work over and above the already proposed Karma system and a small (hopefully) tweak to instancing. It doesn't break immersion, and yet it still manages to strongly discourage PvP behaviours.
The point is, however, that I suspect (I don't know) that there is a technical limitation which will prevent them ever being as good as a Co-op mode would be.
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
OK, we clearly have a different opinion, so at this point I will just agree to disagree. Further discussion is pointless, as we'll never reach the consensus. You won't convince me and vice versa.
Thanks for a constructive discussion though. It's always good to see that rather than handbags.
(I do partially agree with you on lack of meaningful content. We could use some proper improvements to the existing features. See what the rest of this season brings - but that's offtopic.)
::EDIT::
Also, just to add, Steam stats are pretty much irrelevant, as those users are only a subset of the whole community. Only FDEV have any meaningful stats when it comes to players activity and other MI.
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