Opinions on combat logging

[Duc_Mallard]

Hey Mark H, how would you feel if every NPC disappeared just as you were about to blow him up?

There *LITERALLY* is a difference. The distinction is one of FDev's own deliberate declaration. Not just some "random" at FDev, as I've seen you write previously. This was decided, deliberately and with forethought and by careful and extended consideration, then re-considered at length on more than one occassion, by the game's LEAD DESIGNER. FDev's definition is *LITERALLY* as follows:

1. Combat Logging - (note the initial capitals - they're important) - Combat Logging is a reportable and punishable offence. Combat Logging is defined, by FDev, as ungraceful exit by means of deliberate Task Kill or deliberate Network Interruption. Combat Logging is considered an exploit.

2. Menu Logging - (note the initial capitals - again, they're important) - Exiting the game via the Menu Exit option is fair and valid at any moment of any player's choosing, regardless of in game circumstance.


Please feel free to use the words "combat logging" in reference to Menu Exit during PvP combat (without initial capitals). That is all fine.
But please also note the fact that you don't have any authority to foist your opinion of it onto any other player and say that combat logging via Menu Exit is objectively a "bad" thing. Objectively, combat logging is not a bad thing. Objectively - combat logging is fair and acceptable at any moment of any player's choosing. On the other hand - Combat Logging is not fair or acceptable, according to the game designer's set code of conduct and is therefore a bad thing.
You are, of course, totally free to state your own opinion on combat logging, noting that your own opinion is a subjective one, and not one that can be foisted onto other players as an objective truth or personal code of conduct.

Surely, by all that is conscionable, you can you see and understand the distinction by now? Using the terms combat logging and Combat Logging is just a poor choice because it leads your reader to have to think about your words more carefully and could easily be seen as a deliberate ploy to conflate the terms and confuse the situation for some reason or another

 

[philngraves]

This thread is a baby, you want to try the Modes sub forum and one of the older S.O.G threads.

That area of the forums, you need to prep for. Snacks, energy drinks, medics on standby - I've seen less vicious MMA fights than that section of the forums.

And here i was thinking 110 pages in just over a month was rather intense... lol

 

[DerBruzzler]

A long time ago i played an asian grind game for some years. There was no timer , but when you logged off, or lost your connection, you were still in game for about 3 minutes. This meant certain death if you were fighting. This would fix the Problem at once. There were no complaints about CL in the forums.
On the other side, there were more downsides to beeing "wanted" and you couldnt play the game in a normal way then. Player killers had to grind off their crimes in a very bad way, so very few people did it.
So also no complaints about murder hobos.
Was way better i think than the system in ED.

 

[Rampant]

I just found it pretty rediculous that at least 4 of those 15 had fighter bays installed, but didn't even launch.

.

Some players have zero interest in PvP combat. Perhaps those fighter bays you mention were fitted for a PvE reason and not for PvP combat - which they may have zero interest in anyway...?

Just some analysis, without condoning the actual actions you report.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Not last night but the night before, I met a wanted Novice Anaconda Cmdr in supercruise. I could have interdicted them & claimed whatever their bounty was worth, instead I asked them their story & helped them find an interstellar factor to pay it off. AFAIK they are still playing in Open. I wonder if yours is?

Not condoning CLogging by any stretch, but players aren't NPCs, there are more options available than just shooting.

Yeah, I'd have lit that dude up in a heartbeat, and let the cops help me finish him.

That's the fun of bounties

 

[philngraves]

Some players have zero interest in PvP combat. Perhaps those fighter bays you mention were fitted for a PvE reason and not for PvP combat - which they may have zero interest in anyway...?

Just some analysis, without condoning the actual actions you report.

I have do doubt that they were pve ships, however they were in open play. My point on the SLF is that they are very dangerous to a fixed weapon iEagle and launching said SLF would have driven me off immediately.

Having a pve loadout in open isn't an excuse to avoid pvp entirely, violate CoC through chat, and then claim I'm the griefer before logging. My point here is that avoiding the combat mechanics entirely (as in not launching fighter or even opening hardpoints), and avoiding the travel mechanics (trying to wake out) leaves a person wondering why they play the game at all.

Treating me like a souped up NPC would have won all of them the day yet none even cared to try.

If the go to action in a pvp encounter is to log out, then why enter open play at all? It isn't like pvp players have anywhere else to go, where as pve players have massive player groups, solo play, or just small private groups among friends where they can enjoy their content all they like.

And don't say CQC... xbox average wait time is listed in decades atm.

 

[Duc_Mallard]

To mark H

Sorry.didnt mean to repost your whole quote, mark H. I'm new to these forums. Just wondering how you would feel if every NPC menu logged on you when you were about to blow them up. Maybe that npc doesn't engage in PvE and only like EvE or is a dedicated explorer?

 

[GreyAreaUK]

Sorry.didnt mean to repost your whole quote, mark H. I'm new to these forums. Just wondering how you would feel if every NPC menu logged on you when you were about to blow them up. Maybe that npc doesn't engage in PvE and only like EvE or is a dedicated explorer?

NPCs are there specifically to be content.

Players are not.

 

[Duc_Mallard]

To grey area

If players weren't content then they would be invisible or non interactive with other players

 

[Karacetamol]

Not last night but the night before, I met a wanted Novice Anaconda Cmdr in supercruise. I could have interdicted them & claimed whatever their bounty was worth, instead I asked them their story & helped them find an interstellar factor to pay it off. AFAIK they are still playing in Open. I wonder if yours is?

Not condoning CLogging by any stretch, but players aren't NPCs, there are more options available than just shooting.

I mean. First point, he wasn’t a Novice. Second point, don’t be that guy insinusting im guilty of kickin others out of open. He was wanted, I acted according to my station. He’d still be wanted even if it wasn’t me, I just happened to act first. Third - have you ever tried to hold a communication on Xbox without a keyboard? Not easy. Faster to engage, since most are hostile on there anyways.

 

[philngraves]

NPCs are there specifically to be content.

Players are not.

The entire point of Open play is that everyone becomes the content. If they add an Open PvE option, then players will no longer be content.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

If players weren't content then they would be invisible or non interactive with other players

It's up to each individual player if they want to be a part of your game or not, and if so to what extent. I play in Open (mostly) but I rarely interact with other players. I like to see them as it adds colour and detail, but I'm content to let them be.

The entire point of Open play is that everyone becomes the content. If they add an Open PvE option, then players will no longer be content.

That's tantamount to claiming that the sole purpose of Open is PvP, which is demonstrably false.

 

[Rampant]

Bull.
First of all "griefing" is a red herring.

Most PVP players are very helpful and will absolutely teach people, so you are being dishonest.

Bull.

Citation required. Citation not available. Where would you get the "Most" from. Plucked it out of thin air. Wishful thinking. The only PvP experiences I've ever had were from being interdicted and shot at for no tangible reason other than being a human player in the instance (or that one time when I got rammed in station, but escaped scot free, LOL.) Most PvP players - in my own experience, of course - are the antithesis of "helpful".

Yours Aye

Mark H

 

[Bigmaec]

Bull.

Citation required. Citation not available. Where would you get the "Most" from. Plucked it out of thin air. Wishful thinking. The only PvP experiences I've ever had were from being interdicted and shot at for no tangible reason other than being a human player in the instance (or that one time when I got rammed in station, but escaped scot free, LOL.) Most PvP players - in my own experience, of course - are the antithesis of "helpful".

Yours Aye

Mark H

But he's right.

 

[GreyAreaUK]

But he's right.

You're saying his own experiences are wrong? So, what, he imagined them?

Interesting stance to take...


For the most part, any would-be PvP encounter I've been pulled into hasn't even had the courtesy of a 'yarr!'. It's just interdict, start firing. And when I avoid there's still no comms, no friend request, no dinner, no flowers...

 

[philngraves]

Bull.

Citation required. Citation not available. Where would you get the "Most" from. Plucked it out of thin air. Wishful thinking. The only PvP experiences I've ever had were from being interdicted and shot at for no tangible reason other than being a human player in the instance (or that one time when I got rammed in station, but escaped scot free, LOL.) Most PvP players - in my own experience, of course - are the antithesis of "helpful".

Yours Aye

Mark H

I agree that 'most' is hyperbole, however a large number of pvp players are quite knowledgable and will be glad to offer tips on avoiding death. The issue is that most people communicate to said 'murderer' in less than friendly terms.

There are a number of us that are more than happy to help players. There are also some that are more than happy to say they will help and then just kill you again.

Bears do give the best hugs afterall...

 

[Duc_Mallard]

To grey area

It's up to each individual player if they want to be a part of your game or not, and if so to what extent. I play in Open (mostly) but I rarely interact with other players. I like to see them as it adds colour and detail, but I'm content to let them be.



That's tantamount to claiming that the sole purpose of Open is PvP, which is demonstrably false.

I'm not saying they want to interact, but nevertheless they are in open mode with their in game assets to be interactive to the other players in open. It doesn't matter if they want to engage or not. My point is, if you take that reasoning further and apply it to the NPC's then if they all menu logged during combat it would help "dedicated explorer " types to understand how frustrating it is and why is doesn't make sense that people disappear. I try to always be in the hanger when I log out because I want to help encourage other players belief in the conceit of the game. I not saying people need to be that considerate to the logic of the fantasy environment but some appreciation that maintaining the facade in open mode is more important than a players perceived right to exploit the external system to keep their in game assets

 

[CMDR Cosmic Spacehead]

You're saying his own experiences are wrong? So, what, he imagined them?

Interesting stance to take...


For the most part, any would-be PvP encounter I've been pulled into hasn't even had the courtesy of a 'yarr!'. It's just interdict, start firing. And when I avoid there's still no comms, no friend request, no dinner, no flowers...

You expect too much.

While I don't usually go around murdering players, if I did, I wouldn't talk much anyway.
Mainly because I can't type and fly. That'd involve putting my gamepad down. Lol

But if the CMDR was wanted, I'm not going to give them time to escape. Shock and awe tactics. (unless they have a tiny bounty, then I'll let them go) (also, I've never seen a CMDR I think I can beat, with a large enough bounty to bother with, but that's another story or 7.)

Also I won't talk if it's a revenge kill. You know who you are, and if I see you, I will probably suicide myself off your lasers in an attempt at revenge! I may scream "revenge…!" at some point though.

That said, they two whole times I've been interdicted for cargo, the pirate has been a good sport. Only shooting if I tried to run, and leaving me be if I complied.

However, less than 2.8% of PvPers are actual pirates ..

CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

 

[Zoltah-Talion]

My point here is that avoiding the combat mechanics entirely (as in not launching fighter or even opening hardpoints), and avoiding the travel mechanics (trying to wake out) leaves a person wondering why they play the game at all.

Treating me like a souped up NPC would have won all of them the day yet none even cared to try.

If the go to action in a pvp encounter is to log out, then why enter open play at all?

First of all, there are many players (including myself) who are not playing ED because they love to pew-pew all the time. Can you accept that? As odd as it may seem to you, some just like flying spaceships, exploring space, looking at beautiful things. The game can be about role-playing, pretending, enjoying the beauty of the environment. Perhaps to PvP people that just seems silly, and oh yes, so cringe-worthy. But it's true anyway. Don't those people have as much right to enjoy their time as you?

Secondly, you're often picking on people with limited experience of PvP. I myself, to this very day, can count my PvP encounters on one hand. It's truly disconcerting (believe me) when you're just suddenly attacked, and realise that you're facing the rebuy screen within moments because the person doing the attacking is absolutely intent on your destruction. They have prepared for it, planned for it, and by Crom they're going to do it. They've got all the right tech, they begin by disabling your defences and means of escape, and this is their content, this is what they get off on.

I've tried to suggest elsewhere that PvP lovers should adopt ways of interacting with other users that give them greater satisfaction. These might include issuing a challenge using game sanctioned methods of communication. Or finding ways to attract others to what you're doing by sharing knowledge, growing your community by other means than gratuitous assault. But maybe that's just not enough fun for you.

I've been reflecting on these things lately, and I've come to the conclusion that until there's a PvE game AND a clearly defined PvP game, menu-logging (however much you may scorn and despise it) will have to remain there as an escape option, and will definitely be used by people who like Open (for whatever reason), but are not willing to lose so much to an unprovoked, unsought violent interaction with another human player. And I think you guys will just have to come to terms with that.

And ftr, I myself am staying out of Open now, until the day that Frontier are willing to create a PvP sandbox for you pew-pew guys, and a PvE sandbox for people like me.

 

[Duc_Mallard]

To zoltan

The point of the game is that people that want to explore and people that want to blow poeple up are in the same sandbox together. Hell some poeple even like doing both