Pay2Win made it to Elite

[Ian Doncaster]

and taking damage in the fight could ruin whatever you were trying to do

There'd certainly need to be rethinking of both game balance more generally and ship builds, to ensure that attritional damage was manageable, but this is what I mean by the difference between Elite/FE2/FFE and Elite Dangerous.

In Elite/FE2/FFE the encounters between you and the station pretty much are the game. If you take too much damage getting there and have to retreat, that's why they were there in the first place. If you take a mission to bomb a military installation in FFE you'll be fighting military patrols most of the way across the system, with no greater reward for beating any particular one than "well, now I can get a bit closer to the target before the next one finds me". Actually bombing the installation when you get there is just a case of launching a fire-and-forget missile, pulling away while it drops on target, then hyperspacing home: most of the actual action takes place long before that point.

In Elite Dangerous it'd be balanced very differently: bombing the installation would be a complex process with lots of use of hatchbreakers and recon limpets to expose a particular vulnerable point while avoiding or defeating station patrols and weapons, then fire in some sort of explosive and retreat before it detonates, and then maybe repeat this process a few times on different spots to build up the structural damage, then watch a fancy explosion as it breaks apart and maybe have some salvage opportunities ... and so things happening to you on the way are just fairly boring filler [1] if they happen at all.

So ED has changed to a very destination-based gameplay compared with its extremely travel-based predecessors but retains the "travel takes a long time" aspects of its predecessors even though nothing can really happen on the journey and people tend to object when it does.


[1] The other difference is in outfitting. In the previous games any mid-sized ship (not even necessarily as big as the Cobra III) could be outfitted as a "do anything" ship. So it was pretty much guaranteed that you'd be ready for anything that happened along the way. ED is very much - especially nowadays - designed around "a separate ship for each job" with much more limited scope for multirole builds especially on the smaller models. So in FFE a few patrols coming up to you on your way to the installation, no big deal, you've got weapons and shields anyway. In Elite Dangerous a few Glaives showing up on the way to the Titan ... well, this is your Titan-attacking ship, not your ship for fighting Glaives/Basilisks/pirates/etc and let's not even consider what options a mining T-6 might have.

Mt. Neverest and the heavily ridged bodies, I remember those... Can't honestly say I miss such extremes, but they did add character.

The really extreme stuff I never visited much anyway - but I do miss the mid-sized craters. It's just not a terrain type which appears much if at all in Odyssey and driving from the rim to the central peak of one used to be my favourite "mess about in the SRV" activity.

 

[Rat Catcher]

but I do miss the mid-sized craters. It's just not a terrain type which appears much if at all in Odyssey and driving from the rim to the central peak of one used to be my favourite "mess about in the SRV" activity.

I've driven some gorgeous bodies across good-sized craters, but it seems EDO lost the central peak, which is a shame
Below was quite vast, but, sadly missing the favourite feature of Horizons play. (I was very close to the centre here)

 

[Shurimal]

I am genuinely curious to see how this actually plays out in this increasingly F2P world. Seems to me like a bad idea to have an initial buy in cost weeding people out followed by what are presented as additional transactions just to get into the content on offer. Though maybe that's what most players want now.

Now that I think of it, a limited free-to-play account so new players can get a taste maybe wouldn't be a bad idea.
The free account could have the limits of:
-Horizons only
-No access to rank-locked ships
-Small and medium ships only, no access to big ones like Anaconda, T9, T10 etc
-No fleet carrier
-No tech brokers
-No Powerplay
Then it's up to each freeplayer whether they upgrade to full Horizons or Ody; or if they don't care about rank-locked ships, Guardian modules, carrier, on-foot or PP they can just buy pre-built 'Conda or T9/exploration ship with the FSD booster/AX Chief with Gauss cannons for ARX and play that way.

Well they have increased the difficulty of high level NPCs a few times, and it's normally met with an outcry

...and yet even Elite-level pirate lord 'Vettes feel completely incompetent for even an average combat pilot like me (I can manage pips, I know subtargeting, I use fixed weapons, I can fly FA-off but can't aim FA-off). The specops NPC-s in CZ-s are somewhat dangerous, but only because they fly in wings. I personally would love to see NPC-s buffed so that haz RES-s and Medium+ CZ-s would be a real challenge.

Games that copy/want to be like other games don't last long.

Games that copy 1-to-1 don't tend to last long, but games that take an idea someone did before and build upon it can be very successful. For historical example, Wolfenstein 3D started a trend and each following FPS improved and built on the idea: Doom, Duke Nukem, Quake, Unreal, Half-Life were all a small revolution of their own. More recently, rogue-likes and rogue-lites are incredibly popular (though not my cup of tea personally).

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

So ED has changed to a very destination-based gameplay compared with its extremely travel-based predecessors but retains the "travel takes a long time" aspects of its predecessors even though nothing can really happen on the journey and people tend to object when it does.


[1] The other difference is in outfitting. In the previous games any mid-sized ship (not even necessarily as big as the Cobra III) could be outfitted as a "do anything" ship.

I've been trying out new indie space games with demos recently and it's really demonstrated both of these things. Travel could take a long time because of the mandated/scripted interdiction(s) and other events along the way not because it's inherently a time sink and ships could just do everything with the limitation being if you can/decide to upgrade the combat or non combat slots first (with the early game economy being somewhat better balanced than Elite is nowdays).

Elite nowdays for me still has all the elements (such as mission-mandated interdictions), but they are increasingly unbalanced due to neglect and don't come together into a cohesive whole any more. The more you know and better you are at the game the worse these things become and the more they grate and grind down the experience. Ideally a game should be rewarding deep knowledge and mastery of the gameplay mechanics.

 

[alexzk]

You say more of a challenge, I say SRV driving has become annoying to the point of me no longer wanting to. Some planetary surfaces are now plain impossible to traverse in the SRV. Either you fly over them or walk/climb on foot, which means you can not collect raw materials there. More realistic ? Maybe. Fun ? Less so. And let's not even start on the Odyssey engineering grind, which is way worse than ship engineering. And on top of that you can't even swap weapon/suit mods out. I love tinkering, I have builds for several suits and weapons to fit specific roles. I ended up making one of each with a generalist setup and wish to never touch that aspect of the game ever again until a major revamp.

I think this is positive change, that I cannot freely ride SRV now. Because it is realistic. I would do the same with walking as it was initially. When you could fall into hole and done.
There are hundred "fun to play" games. In Elite I want "realistic Space".
About grind - I don't feel so. I feel bad because I maxed everything I want endless pockets

 

[alexzk]

I've driven some gorgeous bodies across good-sized craters, but it seems EDO lost the central peak, which is a shame
Below was quite vast, but, sadly missing the favourite feature of Horizons play. (I was very close to the centre here)

Well, on Horizons I always had a question why that peaks are there at all ? I think those could happen if surface was liquid on impact. Otherwise it should be the hole.
Also you're on atmo world, it is expected that peaks will be gone there.
I just figured I haven't landed "no atmo" for long. Need to check them.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

I think this is positive change, that I cannot freely ride SRV now. Because it is realistic. I would do the same with walking as it was initially. When you could fall into hole and done.

There's realistic offroad driving games over rough/difficult terrain that are fun and have more gameplay than elite does with it's SRVs.

 

[Ozric]

...and yet even Elite-level pirate lord 'Vettes feel completely incompetent for even an average combat pilot like me (I can manage pips, I know subtargeting, I use fixed weapons, I can fly FA-off but can't aim FA-off). The specops NPC-s in CZ-s are somewhat dangerous, but only because they fly in wings. I personally would love to see NPC-s buffed so that haz RES-s and Medium+ CZ-s would be a real challenge.

I'd say that makes you above average. But the harder NPCs didn't stay anyway.

 

[Darkfyre99]

...and yet even Elite-level pirate lord 'Vettes feel completely incompetent for even an average combat pilot like me (I can manage pips, I know subtargeting, I use fixed weapons, I can fly FA-off but can't aim FA-off). The specops NPC-s in CZ-s are somewhat dangerous, but only because they fly in wings. I personally would love to see NPC-s buffed so that haz RES-s and Medium+ CZ-s would be a real challenge.

I agree with @Ozric. I'd say you're an above average combat pilot myself.

 

[Shurimal]

I'd say that makes you above average.

I agree with @Ozric. I'd say you're an above average combat pilot myself.

Thank you for your kind words! Although when I watch what an average hooner, AX pilot or PvP pilot can do with their ship (FA off mailslot shenanigans and rail/Gauss snipes), I feel like a complete n00b

 

[alexzk]

There's realistic offroad driving games over rough/difficult terrain that are fun and have more gameplay than elite does with it's SRVs.

Yes, on 1G. Most planets are below 0.5G. Once you land on 1g driving is "fun" again.

 

[Fizzatron]

It's not about being dumb, it's about being lazy, poorly informed and taking cognitive shortcuts and mis-categorizing things.

Your position is clear on the matter, I understand what you are saying but I'm not buying it as a reasonable scenario but one that has been contrived to serve the purpose of making a point. I could point out that youtube is convenient and well known place to gather information about a game before and after purchase, but I feel like the response would be "but think of those who can't access it" or "that's not how it is supposed to be", ignoring the fact that it is exactly how it is for every other game (and more) out there as well, and as if a plethora of information added by enthusiasts is a detriment to the game, and if all of that didn't exist somehow that would actually be better.

There have been quite a few threads in the suggestions about how to support the game better and some of the suggestions were similar to what Frontier are doing. I don't really have a problem with the gated release of the Python Mk II, it gives those who want to support the game a way to do it with a nice bonus that comes with it. The starter ships veer into territory I will always agree could be a slippery slope but looking at the situation now rather than conjecturising convoluted scenarios that do not exist, the specs of them are not game-breaking, and are similar to the ship perks people paid for during the kickstarter, and also the times when the Dropship/Gunship/Assault ships were available to purchase ingame without having to accrue the rack first for a short period, though obviously that wasn't for real money. Would I prefer it not to be this way? Sure, but as a player and supporter of the game, am I going to try to convince others to get out their pitchforks. No. There could be a time for that but for me this isn't it.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

Yes, on 1G. Most planets are below 0.5G. Once you land on 1g driving is "fun" again.

There's more mechanics in using the jump jets than driving - no tuning, gears, differential toggling, noticeable traction differences across different surfaces on the same planet etc. Not to mention nothing to do but to aimlessly drive around the same few basic biome tiles with minor procgen adjustments.

There are ways the some of the same surfaces could be a fun gameplay challenge to conquer by just driving but in Elite it isn't, maybe that would've been ok if it was a spaceship game, but odyssey took things in a different direction and didn't really improve on this.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

Your position is clear on the matter, I understand what you are saying but I'm not buying it as a reasonable scenario but one that has been contrived to serve the purpose of making a point. I could point out that youtube is convenient and well known place to gather information about a game before and after purchase, but I feel like the response would be "but think of those who can't access it" or "that's not how it is supposed to be", ignoring the fact that it is exactly how it is for every other game (and more) out there as well, and as if a plethora of information added by enthusiasts is a detriment to the game, and if all of that didn't exist somehow that would actually be better.

It's based on how I feel and why about some other games (World of Tanks, War Thunder, Star Citizen, some new Diablos) -- I haven't really researched how P2W they are and I have possible other reasons not to buy into those games, but I recognize I'm not informed and could be wrong. If I wanted to research it I'd end up finding (and being algorithmically recommended) stuff that just focuses on the micro transactions and not what's actually fun about those games.

It's definitely not worth investing time into a game to later realize you can't really play because of P2W stuff (Heartstone for me).

 

[alexzk]

There's more mechanics in using the jump jets than driving - no tuning, gears, differential toggling, noticeable traction differences across different surfaces on the same planet etc. Not to mention nothing to do but to aimlessly drive around the same few basic biome tiles with minor procgen adjustments.

There are ways the some of the same surfaces could be a fun gameplay challenge to conquer by just driving but in Elite it isn't, maybe that would've been ok if it was a spaceship game, but odyssey took things in a different direction and didn't really improve on this.

SRV is a tool for me to get somewhere, so I'm not sure about all details. I just think Ody's surfaces are more realistic then cartoons in Horizonts. That is all I need from simulator - to be realistic.
Btw, there are winds too I think. Flying srv changes direction on atmo planets.

 

[Shadowsnog]

a limited free-to-play account so new players can get a taste maybe wouldn't be a bad idea.

there used to be an elite dangerous standalone demo with all the basic tutorials. officialy its nowhere to be found afaik. i remember i was able to put my hands on it after a great amount of time and effort, but idk where i got it from. helped a lot as i wanted to test if ed would run on my old pc and additionally i was able to comfortably prepare my keybinds for the real thing (took me like 2 weeks to get somewhat comfortable with it ^^ )
would be nice if fdev released it again...

 

[Markov Chaney]

If you can just buy all this at day 1, what's the point?

In sim racing, the vast majority of developer effort is spent in making sure that you can't find ways to smuggle in upgrades to your car, or the command and control thereof. I hear a lot of complaints from that community but it's never "what's the point?"

Also by this same logic, once your AspX has the perfect minimaxed build, are you going to stop exploring because there is "no point?"

 

[aRJay]

In sim racing, the vast majority of developer effort is spent in making sure that you can't find ways to smuggle in upgrades to your car, or the command and control thereof. I hear a lot of complaints from that community but it's never "what's the point?"

Also by this same logic, once your AspX has the perfect minimaxed build, are you going to stop exploring because there is "no point?"

If their point was to produce the "perfect" ship then yes. Like the office/apartment build in Brewster's Millions.

 

[Rat Catcher]

There's realistic offroad driving games over rough/difficult terrain that are fun and have more gameplay than elite does with it's SRVs.

Wonder if that is because they are driving games? Not had driving tacked on as an idea?

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

Wonder if that is because they are driving games? Not had driving tacked on as an idea?

The offroad stuff is sometimes just tacked on to regular driving games too and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and can heavily depend on how solid the physics/vehicle design is in those games.

Which is to say Elite could make the driving itself click for more people by adding more SRVs that cater to different driving styles, but it'd still be left with the issue of there being no good extrinsic reasons to drive.