Pay2Win made it to Elite

[Zak Gordon]

I popped back at an interesting time

My initial reaction is, not as upset as I thought i would be...perhaps.

1. Frontier need money for ED as they are not in a good financial situation re the game.
2. We need Frontier to have the money to keep running the game (problem with online only games as I and many others went into during early development).

So that is the basic background to where ED currently is, i think it is correct and fair?

Now if i was a longtime loyal player of the game, with hundreds and maybe thousands of hours in the game, with various paid for updates and cosmetics along the journey, then yes this news would seem to sting badly at first look. So spin that background (if it is your own description) to become positive; so what if any newb with a big enough wallet can jump right in the game and get their ship to the same standard you took months/years grinding for.

Will they be a better pilot than you? Very unlikely. Will they have the rich and earned background with the game you have? No. They will simply be, for the better longtime players, a more challenging breed of newbie to keep in check and hone your skills and well polished build against.

As for new guys to the game, you can choose to actually play the game, grind the path upwards, and not worry about those that have spare cash (or a desire to miss out on the typical Elite progress arc, which IS what Elite has always been about) to jump ahead. There is an argument to be had over what the value of a game like ED is, and I know for myself what that is, and will not feel the need to "Pay to win". But others will feel differently and good luck to them and FDEV if this can translate into funds to keep the game going.

Does this sound reasonable? Or am i not grogging some fundamental specific flaw pay-to-win brings to ED?

 

[Fizzatron]

I popped back at an interesting time

My initial reaction is, not as upset as I thought i would be...perhaps.

1. Frontier need money for ED as they are not in a good financial situation re the game.
2. We need Frontier to have the money to keep running the game (problem with online only games as I and many others went into during early development).

So that is the basic background to where ED currently is, i think it is correct and fair?

Pretty much.

Now if i was a longtime loyal player of the game, with hundreds and maybe thousands of hours in the game, with various paid for updates and cosmetics along the journey, then yes this news would seem to sting badly at first look. So spin that background (if it is your own description) to become positive; so what if any newb with a big enough wallet can jump right in the game and get their ship to the same standard you took months/years grinding for.

That isn't representative of the situation is. While I completely accept that a slippery slope argument of itself is a logical fallacy that doesn't preclude it from happening. For what you say to be true, we would have slid down the slippery slope pretty far and maybe we can get some reassurance from Frontier that isn't going to happen, like that would do any good for some, but as it stands now, the starter ships give a little boost to get a new player (or a dedicated player's less dedicated buddies) a way to hop into the game ready to engage with some of the activities.

 

[Zak Gordon]

Ok so there are limits to what you can buy when first starting out? That seems reasonable.

It's all new "news" to me, this pay2win thing, I just had not played for over a year and was checking if the game still runs for me!

 

[OutofSpace]

so what if any newb with a big enough wallet can jump right in the game and get their ship to the same standard you took months/years grinding for.

I'm perfectly fine with it, especially if it keeps the game alive. This game is the goat, imo and if someone wants to skip the actual game play by injecting cash into the game then great!
I understand that it has ruffled some feathers but it is better than the game being turned off.
I don't like the game play being referred to as "grind" as for me that is the fun in the game, it's what keeps me playing, along with everything else, the immersion, the beauty etc.
I choose to play the game to achieve goals, others may choose to pay to skip that. Everyone wins, imo.

Edit: Also i don't think it's pay2win, it's just a ship one can buy.

 

[Zak Gordon]

So just the one ship? with some starting boost to help a new player out, but not like a topped out Fer-de-lance?

 

[OutofSpace]

So just the one ship? with some starting boost to help a new player out, but not like a topped out Fer-de-lance?

Yes, imo.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Does this sound reasonable? Or am i not grogging some fundamental specific flaw pay-to-win brings to ED?

My impression is that there are two main concerns that (mainly) different people have, which are somewhat in opposite directions but do also have a common thread.

1) While a lot of the current purchasable items are - very deliberately, I'd say - only conditionally useful and mostly only during the "early game" (from a multi-hundred-hour point of view), a lot of people are more concerned about what might happen next now that the "it hasn't happened since the Kickstarter rewards / Cobra IV" line has been crossed. A policy of "cosmetics only" is clear and absolute; a policy of "minor or temporary advantages only" has plenty of scope for shifting over time towards whatever your actual line is. There are also - for those engaged in the more overtly competitive aspects of ED where "winning" does have a definition - situations even with what's already released where the advantage obtained might be veteran-vs-veteran [1], so it's not just about beginners able to pay to catchup a little faster.

2) The items are pretty expensive when compared with the price of the basic game (the Python II deluxe is more expensive even paying full price for the game). There's certainly a concern that a beginner might pay £13 - essentially as much again as the game itself - for a T-6 prebuild which they could (minus the cosmetics and the special mining lasers) obtain pretty quickly in-game anyway, and even if they decide they like laser mining will probably outgrow after a few trips. Relatedly, if the early unlock price for the Python II is typical of the four planned ships, that will be more than Odyssey cost on release (and you got a lot more with Odyssey) and again there's probably some element of concern over where Frontier goes next with that business model.



I think on the financial side there's also a concern from both groups that it reflects a fundamental change in the ED business model. The original model was essentially to get a relatively small amount of money from a large number of players: hundreds of thousands of new acccounts bought each year, and sure you could spend considerably more than the price of the game on cosmetics but hardly anyone did and it wasn't a problem for you personally if you didn't.

If the plan here is to get a large amount of money from a smaller number of players then there's firstly a concern from the people who haven't already been spending hundreds of pounds a year on ED and don't plan to start that future changes might leave them behind ... and secondly there's a substantial element of risk to making that sort of change to the business model in that it might well not work and therefore accelerate the decline of ED (and, well, it's been a while since FD have taken a big risk and had it pay off as opposed to explode in their face).



[1] More so for the early access to the new ships than for the prebuilds themselves.

 

[MUTILADOR]

I see people say this a lot, and it's how I felt about it too initially. Eventually I discovered that knowing what you need and using mission rewards to earn most of it rather than trying to gather it made the whole process a lot less painful. Don't get me wrong I acknowledge there are still definitely some pain points, especially with unlocking engineers, but I now engineer personal gear with no more drama than ship modules.

The on-foot engineering method is still irrational: you would have to travel to different locations to find the random quest that gives you a component (if you're lucky). Like "a reflex sight for your gun." That's stupid, it's an insult to the players. I understand if Guardian Engineering is difficult, but a reflex sight for your weapon? Oh really?

 

[Jocko Flocko]

I can't even get them to accept any form of payment method. Sent a ticket. Never ever had this problem through all the years I've been playing.

 

[Zak Gordon]

Snip...

If the plan here is to get a large amount of money from a smaller number of players then there's firstly a concern from the people who haven't already been spending hundreds of pounds a year on ED and don't plan to start that future changes might leave them behind ... and secondly there's a substantial element of risk to making that sort of change to the business model in that it might well not work and therefore accelerate the decline of ED (and, well, it's been a while since FD have taken a big risk and had it pay off as opposed to explode in their face).

Certainly the "fates" had not been as nice to ED (and Fdev) as they should have been, from coming out alongside StarCitzen's appearance, to some odd game design decisions when Sir David was getting less involved etc. From dropping console users to this new shift of needing to get more money into the game with what i see being called Pay2win, it's been a rocky ride, which is a crying shame because the core strength of the game (keep in mind i only played what is now the Legacy version of ED for 4 months or so) is as beautiful experience as docking to the Blue Danube on your 8bit of choice (except mine! Atari 800 owner at that time!) for the first time, to hearing the icy winds of Merlin as you gaze up at the lurid pink sky with a ringed gas giant overhead.

The DNA of Elite has always been strong, the emotional and awe-of-being-in-space vibe. I'm just gutted we didn't get landing on all planet types and a more robust less gamey orientated design process (so many great ideas that could have/should have worked from the DDF discussions way back).

So i think my perspective is that due to this bumpy ride that ED sadly has had, bringing in money to keep the game going (remember we can't play this locally without them running the server!) has to be a priority over all other things, it is just where we (players of ED and Fdev themselves) are at.

Hmmm, maybe when they have to pull the plug they could gift the game to the community and we could use wealthy donors to keep it running?

 

[Einar Donarsson]

I popped back at an interesting time

My initial reaction is, not as upset as I thought i would be...perhaps.

1. Frontier need money for ED as they are not in a good financial situation re the game.

You are already wrong at the first point. The Reason Elite was stagnating so much is that barely any of the money it made was invested into it. Instead a ton of money was wasted on a overpriced Warhammer License in hopes of making a big Cash hit which backfired gloriously. The Elite Community is the one paying for that mistake now (and all the fired staff ofc).

While i HOPE that they will use the money made from these corpo greed practices to develop Elite, i highly doubt it.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The Reason Elite was stagnating so much is that barely any of the money it made was invested into it.

Elite has had a far greater amount of its post-release income invested back into it than any of their other franchises (F1 Manager is probably ahead now as a percentage because of its atypical release model, young age and poor initial income, but won't be intended to stay that way over a ten-year term) - over half of the total it's brought in has been spent on it either directly or indirectly.

Elite is 2nd (for now) on all-time revenue but only 5th on all-time profits because of how much of its own income it eats on continued development. And operational costs, of course, but mainly development.

(And ED also doesn't make that much money to start with - it's 4th on same-age revenue behind both JWEs and Planet Zoo ... and if F1 Manager 2024 sells reasonably well might fall back into 5th at least temporarily)

Instead a ton of money was wasted on a overpriced Warhammer License in hopes of making a big Cash hit which backfired gloriously.

Elite Dangerous hasn't been bringing in enough spare money to launch new franchises since they started developing Odyssey (which cost almost ED's entire income for the previous three years to develop, for an example of how amazingly successful a strategy of "reinvest ED income in itself at >90% rate" could be)

Realms of Ruin specifically will have been largely funded from not reinvesting enough of the profits of JWE2 into more management sims - a mistake which the board has acknowledged and intends to correct, yes.

 

[deMangler]

...

Hmmm, maybe when they have to pull the plug they could gift the game to the community and we could use wealthy donors to keep it running?

I remember David B promising the universe server would be handed over if the game ever stopped developing/Fdev stopped the servers so that those who bought the game would not be buying something they could not keep. That was in a kickstarter video I think, or an AMA.

 

[Rainbro]

I remember David B promising the universe server would be handed over if the game ever stopped developing/Fdev stopped the servers so that those who bought the game would not be buying something they could not keep. That was in a kickstarter video I think, or an AMA.

I don't know if it was said in a video as well but he also said it on the forums here:

Of course, it's well known that just because Braben said Frontier would do something, there's no guarantee that any plans mentioned wouldn't be shelved quietly the next day but we can have hope.

 

[mtfatboy3006]

It's good that EDH can get the MK2 but I'm afraid that money buys a ship is more SC now .

You mean getting actively and enthusiastically developed because it's generating income? The game could stand to be a little more like SC in that regard, frankly. How long will FDEV keep developing this game without generating any additional revenue?

I wouldn't call this pay to win. The ships in question aren't especially advantageous, and many of the "purchases" will be made with arx that have been sitting dormant in accounts for lack of anything desirable to use them for, and since ARX can be accrued through gameplay, "paying" isn't required. I didn't pay anything additional for mine. The MK2 is going to be available in-game and doesn't confer any substantial advantage over other ships, nothing is locked behind a paywall. This is the first remotely interesting persistent content added to the game in a long time, and charging ARX for it looks to me like FDEV is looking for ways to keep the game alive and moving forward.

 

[Rainbro]

You mean getting actively and enthusiastically developed because it's generating income? The game could stand to be a little more like SC in that regard, frankly. How long will FDEV keep developing this game without generating any additional revenue?

What make you think the game isn't currently generating income? Frontier have financial reports, I don't know where this idea keeps coming from.

 

[aRJay]

What make you think the game isn't currently generating income? Frontier have financial reports, I don't know where this idea keeps coming from.

Wishful thinking from the doomsters.

 

[metatheurgist]

I remember David B promising the universe server would be handed over if the game ever stopped developing/Fdev stopped the servers so that those who bought the game would not be buying something they could not keep. That was in a kickstarter video I think, or an AMA.

I remember DB saying the store would only sell cosmetics....

 

[alexzk]

So, those pre-build ships can be teleported for no price (sell there, buy at the new location). Is it pay to win or not yet?
I imagine somebody lands on DSSA carrier, teleports miner and earns crazy money in hours. Reverse is true too - carrier's owners lower prices for the tritium because miner ships can be teleported.
Or ganker comes to Colonia and summons fighter.
Or you just travel in team on 1 ship, then summon ships for the 2nd person...
Teleportation opens many doors.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

So, those pre-build ships can be teleported for no price

With the limitation that you have to accept exactly what Frontier was thinking when they put the build together, yes. That doesn't make it useless, but it does limit what you can do with it quite substantially to the extent that there's already better ways to do most of it.

teleports miner and earns crazy money in hours

Not with that T-6 build you won't be. It's fine - if way overpriced in £s - for "beginner's first miner", but the shortage of collector limpets will mean that it's not going to be filling its small hold very quickly. It'd be quicker to fly back to the bubble, fit out a decent Anaconda miner, and fly it back, if you want to collect more than a few hundred tonnes.

Someone wanting to do deep-space mining can already use their own carrier to fly top-end miners to any part of the galaxy they want.

Or ganker comes to Colonia and summons fighter.

They can already travel overnight on a carrier ferry with as many customised ships as they want. There were people using ship transfers to bring battleships to Colonia (even a 60 hour delay isn't that big a deal if you aren't trying to shoot a specific player) pretty much since there's been a Colonia. Given that a summoned ship is going to be (for now!) either unengineered or very lightly engineered, buying a new fighter in Colonia is a perfectly valid option too.

Or you just travel in team on 1 ship, then summon ships for the 2nd person...

Or one of you owns a Fleet Carrier and you transport an entire wing's customised ships at once.

Yes, ship teleportation is a powerful ability. Provided you've been able to time it around a break, it's been effectively available since 2.2 back in late 2016 ... and extremely conveniently available for those with a lot of ships with a carrier since 2020. And those methods aren't restricted to very specific ship builds.

There are some new capabilities here which might be marginally useful in specific circumstances (the pre-built DBX is perhaps the most useful) but it's not going to make a measurable difference to outcomes or the efficiency available to someone who already has a well-equipped fleet.

Is it pay to win or not yet?

I think the only people who are arguing it's not pay to win to at least some extent are those who believe that by definition only losers play Elite Dangerous it is not possible to play Elite Dangerous competitively.

To me a more interesting question is whether it's more pay to win than the Kickstarter backer benefits, or the advantage historically obtained by owning Horizons, or the advantage currently obtained by owning Odyssey. At the moment I think the answer to that is a fairly clear "no" - with my discounted rebuys, Cobra IV, bonus permits and access to Odyssey features I'll be well ahead on paper of someone who doesn't have any of that but does buy all the ARX prebuilds.