Please don't attack defenseless...
- Thread starter TEBORI
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if claiming things left and right without evidence is what you call humor... You can take the door on the left, thank you.
Naw man, great post. I think you see the issues that have me and so many others incensed.
In my view the core of the problem lies here: "Needless to say, this can't help but build up some justifiable animosity towards this particular CMDR." That animosity is in no way shape or form the responsibility of the criminal player. If they are playing the game by the rules you have no standing for resentment. Think of it like boxing: if someone beats you repeatedly, do you then come back and get mad at them for punching you? Of course not.
Sure, you can absolutely feel your human feelings. Losing is part of what makes games and sport so great. But you can't take it personally. That's what's happening here with SPEAR and Jerry Cotton.
Bottom line is we all step in the ring and consent to the rules when we click Open.
Now regarding CMDR Snuggles, it's not my place to decide what is and isn't a TOS violation but I will say in the strongest possible terms the moment you decide to kill CMDR Snuggles for the crimes of CMDR Murderhobo you cross a line into extraordinarily problematic territory. When your ire focuses on the player behind the characters, I can only suggest you step back from the game, look yourself in a mirror, and slap the crap out of your own face!
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I once read some extremely insightful wisdom from a Major in the US Air Force. He flies F15s for a living.
"In the court of the bros it's more important to be funny than right."
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Lol you dont even attempt to refute the fact that you are all literal trash at pvp
"Yeah we suck so bad we need 8 ships to kill a griefer, but sometime we win 1v1 !!!"
jesus, have you no shame at all ?
... why it's always that those playing 'bad' cmdrs are saying 'Dont take it personally', except if 'bad' things happen to them 
. This it seems never will get old ...
If they don't take anything about this game personally then they're telling the truth, aren't they?
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As someone who has not ever role-played, this conversation has been quite enlightening,
The nub of this seems to be the issue of the alt account, intention and interpretation.
It's going to be very difficult to state as a fact another player's intention (when using an alt account) you can only rely on interpretation. This feels like shaky ground to 'convict' someone.
I personally have never killed another 'human' player but suppose I create an alt account, still not killed anyone but I intend to. No one can know that. Is it fair game to interpret I might? I don't think so. So if anyone starts an alt account, how can it be interpreted that they might, no matter what they have done with their other account?
At a stretch, you could say, well, their first account killed all they came across so they'll probably do that with this alt account. But that is not a fact, that is, at best, a guess.
I would suggest that killing a player before they have killed, because you guess they might, is taking your imagined world and overlaying it on everyone else's. You could justify any action in that sense. There is something akin to the 'innocent until proven guilty' being ignored here.
Now don't get me wrong, if a known 'ganker', starts an alt account that is going to be 100% clean and by some misfortune runs into another ganker, who kills them, then that is part of the game, as any 'ganker' will tell you I'm sure. But the idea that an 'law enforcement' organisation can justify targeting a clean CMDR, based on what they think will happen or worse, further stretching their imagined world to say "It's not a clean CMDR, it's a 'dirty' one using an alias", that is just making stuff up.
I think you have to wait for every 'clean' CMDR to make the kill first, then you have more solid ground to interpret intentions.
Just my thoughts. Not saying I'm right.
The nub of this seems to be the issue of the alt account, intention and interpretation.
It's going to be very difficult to state as a fact another player's intention (when using an alt account) you can only rely on interpretation. This feels like shaky ground to 'convict' someone.
I personally have never killed another 'human' player but suppose I create an alt account, still not killed anyone but I intend to. No one can know that. Is it fair game to interpret I might? I don't think so. So if anyone starts an alt account, how can it be interpreted that they might, no matter what they have done with their other account?
At a stretch, you could say, well, their first account killed all they came across so they'll probably do that with this alt account. But that is not a fact, that is, at best, a guess.
I would suggest that killing a player before they have killed, because you guess they might, is taking your imagined world and overlaying it on everyone else's. You could justify any action in that sense. There is something akin to the 'innocent until proven guilty' being ignored here.
Now don't get me wrong, if a known 'ganker', starts an alt account that is going to be 100% clean and by some misfortune runs into another ganker, who kills them, then that is part of the game, as any 'ganker' will tell you I'm sure. But the idea that an 'law enforcement' organisation can justify targeting a clean CMDR, based on what they think will happen or worse, further stretching their imagined world to say "It's not a clean CMDR, it's a 'dirty' one using an alias", that is just making stuff up.
I think you have to wait for every 'clean' CMDR to make the kill first, then you have more solid ground to interpret intentions.
Just my thoughts. Not saying I'm right.
So, feelz over realz basically.
I'm glad the "bros" aren't actually in charge of anything remotely important then.
Well... a lot of them fly F15s. So, there's that.
Depends, in my view. If you were placing yourself in a situation where a killing was perfectly understandable (meaning, in my view, in the context of the game such as supporting a faction that the other player was against, hauling juicy cargo through a system and you being pirated for it, running missions etc.), then there is absolutely no reason in my book for feeling resentful of the player that jumped you. There was a perfectly good "in game" reason for doing it, and that's good enough for me.
And I've learned a lot since I came back, trying to understand the game mechanics as they'd evolved since I took a break. One perfect example is that I used to think that there was absolutely no reason other than personal sadism to interdict explorers coming back from the black until somebody, helpfully, explained to me that unloading that explo data actually helps the faction you're selling it to. That opened my eyes and I certainly don't see players who interdict me now and tell me that I can either turn around and sell it somewhere else or take my chances as "sadistic seal clubbers" anymore. They're just playing in the game universe according to the game universe mechanics and I cannot, in good conscience, hold that against anybody.
The only situation in which I see animosity, anger and such as being perfectly understandable is in the fringe cases (another case in point, I used to think, mistakenly, that that was the norm rather than the exception in this game that I love) where players just do it "for the lulz" with the express purpose of frustrating the player they target. I just don't see the point other than deliberately finding joy in other people's suffering, something I don't hold to. But, again, that is the exception rather than the rule, at least in my experience.
One thing I've learned, if I get blown up, is to, before I get really angry and resentful, sit back and consider if there was a "good" in-game reason for what happened.
But, regardless, it IS a game, and if some CMDR alias had made it his or her business to be a jerk, I STILL wouldn't make it personal to the point where I started hunting any and all aliases of that player. That's what I meant with "this particular CMDR." I definitely don't mean "this particular person". That's taking what is supposed to be a game to an entirely different level that I want no part of. We could not possibly agree more on that point!
That's one way of summing up SPEAR's philosophy...
Oh, and if everybody will pardon me for going off on a tangent, another thing I've learned from this forum since I came back is that my old very black and white idea of what a "player of the game" vs. a "griefer/ganker" was off by several miles. For one thing, I no longer see griefer as being synonymous with ganker. The former purely gets his or her jollies from frustrating and ruining the experience for defenseless, harmless targets.
The "gankers", at least the vast majority of the self-proclaimed ones I've encountered here don't fit that profile. If they truly enjoyed clubbing seals in paper ships just to feast on their tears, they'd be colossal idiots by offering as much help with ship builds and evasion techniques as they demonstrably are. Why on Earth would alleged sadists be interested in making their victims better able to avoid them?
The "gankers", at least the vast majority of the self-proclaimed ones I've encountered here don't fit that profile. If they truly enjoyed clubbing seals in paper ships just to feast on their tears, they'd be colossal idiots by offering as much help with ship builds and evasion techniques as they demonstrably are. Why on Earth would alleged sadists be interested in making their victims better able to avoid them?
The problem is that these folks are neither right, nor funny.
I guess that makes them that annoying Sarge that no one wants to report to.
I'm happy to link you the piece I read so you can better understand the context of that statement.
Look, folks who do a job that demands the highest level of performance humans can achieve, especially where death is a constant companion, usually have some pretty good insight into life. Never mind these particular people are the best in the world at what they do.
But here's the thing. You post all this evidence and facts and whatever else in order to support your point for whatever your goal is. I suppose this is one of those "manners" I just despise. This isn't a court of law. It isn't even science. It's people talking about a game and the stuff that happens in it.
The ultimate irony in your pursuit is forgetting the person behind the screen while claiming to do the opposite.
Check the likes, bro. The jokes from our side do pretty well.
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