please don't confuse PvPers with griefers

[boringnick]

I find this thread an interesting debate. The PvPers want to be respected for attacking people unprovoked. In our modern society there are even playing fields for competition. A boxer that is a heavyweight champion isn't put into the ring with a welterweight amateur because the heavyweight want's a good "scrap". This scenario is similar to what PvPers are trying to defend, and its a hard argument to make with rational minded law abiding citizens. Someone who picks on an obviously weaker target unprovoked is a bully, griefer or whatever other adjective applies to someone taking advantage of someone else. You can say that this is an open world game with sandbox game-play with PvP elements, and therefore its just part of the game and people should expect it. Does that make it ok? Is attacking someone because you want a fight a good reason?

My head hurts reading such crap. What is it with you people that you always bring up r*pe and assault into this?

Instead about whining about griefers, you should ask FD for meaningful protection in game, like bodyguards to hire, armed cruise-liners, a faster police force, tough security in core systems, group-flight and so on.

"Griefers" are a natural obstacle in a game like this. Like the AI pirates in the previous games. The AI pirates this time are pretty weak though, so griefers are a welcome substitute. Trading without any meaningful obstacle is the most boring thing ever. It's like harvesting Tiberium in Command and Conquer without any other enemies on the map nor without base building. In this game you cannot do much with your money, just upgrading your ship slightly (in opposite to station building and fleet management in X3 etc.). And now you even want to remove the enemies from the game? Are you guys nuts? How boring do you want the game to be? I just don't get it.

When I played Frontier back in the day I thought how fun it would be if the pirates in the game would be other players. I wasn't thinking how terrible it is that I have to fight now in Phekda.

A truly dangerous universe where you need to coordinate with other players to stay alive and where every trade run is an adventure is so much more interesting than what the "anti-griefers" want in place: Space Truck Simulator 3300. If this game really becomes the sterile carebear haven you people want, then it will die very fast.

 

[terminatahx]

And guess what. With that assumption, YOU are the criminal, not the person trying to get away from you.
YOU are perpetrating an unprovoked and unjustified attack.

If you do not KW-scan me, and I do not have a bounty in the current system, then for all intents and purposes I have NO bounty. For the simple reason that you do not KNOW what my bounty status is. Because you have NOT scanned me. And as such, I am a legit, honest, 100% above board civilian that you have now harassed and perpetrated a hostile act against (the interdiction) for no better reason than "I felt like doing it, not because I had any reason or evidence, Your Honour. But I'm sure they was guilty, Your Honour, honest!"

If you have not scanned me, either in terms of KW scanner, or cargo scanner, WHY ARE YOU SHOOTING AT ME FOR TRYING TO GET AWAY FROM AN UNLAWFUL ATTACK?!

Be a pirate to your hearts content. Yank me out of SC & shoot me full of holes if I don't want to stop, or can't get away. Now *THAT* is legitimate. You're trying to steal from me, and are honest and above board about it. *That* is a gameplay and role-play mechanic at work. *THAT* is the price of doing business, as a trader, in open play.

And I'll take my chances with that, and will not once complain about a *pirate* who decides to interdict and attack me.

But do NOT claim to be a bounty hunter, and then try to say "Oh well, I didn't scan them, and I acted like a pirate, and acted hostile towards them, and then had to shoot because they tried to run away from an unsanctioned and illegal scan and search, and I didn't know any better, and have no idea why they didn't want to submit to an unsanctioned and illegal scan and search"

Guess who is at fault here, the trader or the "bounty hunter".

Pro tip. It's not the trader.

It's very simple - check your bloody targets before you shoot.

"Scans and Searches" are illegal? I didn't know that. What's the penalty?

 

[murraypaul]

do you play open at all? commanders everywhere

Have you left the couple of dozen core systems at all?
Travel ~50ly in any direction and you'll probably not see another commander all day.

 

[terminatahx]

Please, if you wish for players whose play-style is at odds with yours to play in a different mode then it is up to you to choose another mode - please do not try to exclude players from open....

If you play open, you have no reason to complain or whine about the dynamics and risks associated with open play. If someone doesn't like the interaction, go private or solo. Its really that simple.

 

[Bigcheese]

Griefing is when you follow a specific person around and just try to ruin their fun. Random pvp is never griefing, it's part of the game.

 

[Belisar]

I worry in a way that the players are dividing into categories. Those who want to PvP will be open play and those who do not will follow the advice given by many and play solo or join mobius. What remains to be seen is if that is good for the game long term.

It is sad that there is not a middle ground and people are becoming so entrenched in their views.

I have played a lot of hours of PvP in various games but this is the first one where it is possible for such a fight to be so competely one sided. Got to admit I am having a hard time getting my head around it.

 

[Zekerbox]

My head hurts reading such crap. What is it with you people that you always bring up r*pe and assault into this?

Instead about whining about griefers, you should ask FD for meaningful protection in game, like bodyguards to hire, armed cruise-liners, a faster police force, tough security in core systems, group-flight and so on.

"Griefers" are a natural obstacle in a game like this. Like the AI pirates in the previous games. The AI pirates this time are pretty weak though, so griefers are a welcome substitute. Trading without any meaningful obstacle is the most boring thing ever. It's like harvesting Tiberium in Command and Conquer without any other enemies on the map nor without base building. In this game you cannot do much with your money, just upgrading your ship slightly (in opposite to station building and fleet management in X3 etc.). And now you even want to remove the enemies from the game? Are you guys nuts? How boring do you want the game to be? I just don't get it.

When I played Frontier back in the day I thought how fun it would be if the pirates in the game would be other players. I wasn't thinking how terrible it is that I have to fight now in Phekda.

A truly dangerous universe where you need to coordinate with other players to stay alive and where every trade run is an adventure is so much more interesting than what the "anti-griefers" want in place: Space Truck Simulator 3300. If this game really becomes the sterile carebear haven you people want, then it will die very fast.

I don't appreciate being quoted and associated with calling anything in this discussion r*pe. I didn't use that adjective so please don't quote me as comparing this debate with r*pe. I play in open world and have no problem with PvP or I wouldn't play the game. I play a lot of competitive PvP games. The point I am making is that people should look at what their doing as rude and uncouth. To attack or assault someone unprovoked is not an ethical game play choice. We all have the choice to play this game how we see fit and if it falls within the rules of the game than there is nothing technically wrong with it. However, I am of the opinion that because you can do it doesn't make it right. If I don't want to get griefed of picked on as a trader I avoid places where this is possible. It's a big milky way and there are literally billions of places to go and avoid griefing and PvP.

 

[Tuzmaal]

The biggest grief is that every one can hide in Solo Mode...

 

[terminatahx]

anyone attacking another player without their permission is a griefer.

even pirates can be somewhat civilized, when the put you out of SC and tell you '3 of your wares or else' instead of shooting you right away.

This is the most ridiculous post I've seen in a long time. Please point to the ED rules where it states "you need permission to attack". Dude, obviously, combat is not for you. If I ever see you, you won't be asked for permission for me to do anything. Instead, you'll be faced with the decision to turn and fight, or turn and run. And you don't need my permission to do that either. And if you kill me, I'll accept my defeat, misplaced swagger, lick my wounds, pay my insurance, and get back out there. that's how ED was designed....to be dangerous.

Rolling eyes..................

 

[Britannkic]

The reality is that for 99% of the time you could play open and not know the difference between open vs group and even for times vs solo

The anti-PvP sentiment is derived from experiences of other games irrespective if those other experiences are actually transferable to Elite

The game is only 9 days old after-all and its way too early to be labelling it griefers hell

 

[Zekerbox]

The reality is that for 99% of the time you could play open and not know the difference between open vs group and even for times vs solo

The anti-PvP sentiment is derived from experiences of other games irrespective if those other experiences are actually transferable to Elite

The game is only 9 days old after-all and its way too early to be labelling it griefers hell

I agree, and personaly I don't think Elite will be a griefers paradise.

 

[Pryrates]

- open (PVP)
- open (PVE)

and some issues would be fixed for lot of ppl.

Pryrates

 

[crushdepth]

I'm still trying to figure out why this "greifing" drama even matters. Last time I checked ED is a game. There is no honorable combat, you either live or die. No disrespect to anyone, but whining about how aggressive other players simply exposes the worst group of crybabies I've seen here.

If you play online, you should expect to kill or be killed. Period. If your feelings or "sense of honor" is disturbed, go solo. Seeing a bunch of grown men crying about combat, when they chose to operate in that arenas is beyond immature. I'm an average pilot at best (but improving) right now. And I enjoy the sense of risk of online. If you interdict me, I'll either turn and deal with you, or bail out. Those are the rules of engagement, period. I'm not opening up some stupid comms channel, this isn't a dance.

Yeah, I know, I'll get negative rep..sorry to touch a nerve.

Look up 'griefing'. It's when you cross the line from PVP into harassment. This is a game and your 'targets' are here to have fun too. Most people are not PVP hardcores, so don't repeatedly beat up on the same person.

Fact is that many PVP hero wannabes DO engage in toxic behaviour against noob sidewinders and traders, and they give PVP a bad name. If you want to mindlessly destroy everything you see "because you can", perhaps solo mode was designed for you?

 

[Zekerbox]

I'm still trying to figure out why this "greifing" drama even matters. Last time I checked ED is a game. There is no honorable combat, you either live or die. No disrespect to anyone, but whining about how aggressive other players simply exposes the worst group of crybabies I've seen here.

If you play online, you should expect to kill or be killed. Period. If your feelings or "sense of honor" is disturbed, go solo. Seeing a bunch of grown men crying about combat, when they chose to operate in that arenas is beyond immature. I'm an average pilot at best (but improving) right now. And I enjoy the sense of risk of online. If you interdict me, I'll either turn and deal with you, or bail out. Those are the rules of engagement, period. I'm not opening up some stupid comms channel, this isn't a dance.

Yeah, I know, I'll get negative rep..sorry to touch a nerve.

I have not seen any posted rules of engagement for this game. I think you just made up your own. Rules of engagement in combat zones are implemented to protect the innocent and are relative to that specific mission. There's a reason for the Geneva convention and rules of engagement and its not to allow people to attack whomever they want. Its part of the game and people can do it, but as I've said before it doesn't make it right, nor do I think it should be changed. I think a lot of people in this discussion are upset because they think this is a discussion to changed the game. I see this as a debate about proper conduct within the realm of a Sandbox game.

Again, just my 2 pennies

 

[BacchusZA]

"Scans and Searches" are illegal? I didn't know that. What's the penalty?

Again, the point is missed.

Scan and search, in and of itself? Knock yourself out. Legit game mechanic. To see IF I have a bounty, or IF I have cargo worth stealing, assuming you're a pirate. The fact remains that as a bounty hunter, a private citzen, not a member of law enforcement, you have no legal right or mandate to do so, but whatever, we'll ignore that for now.

If you don't scan me, to see either of those things, or if you scan me and I *don't* have a bounty, especially if you're a self-proclaimed "bounty hunter", then why the hell are you attacking me?

That's the problem. Again, it's not a game mechanic that's the problem, it's player behaviour, by those who profess to be bringing justice to those who are guilty of the crimes that some so called bounty hunters are *themselves* guilty of.

Piracy is expected. It's welcomed. The pirate is taking his chances as much as you are. But when a so called, and self professed "bounty hunter" decides that "Well, I don't know if he's got a bounty, I haven't checked, but I'm just going to shoot this guy full of holes anyway for the hell of it!"?

And when it turns out your unprovoked and unjustified attack just cost an innocent player several million credits, because YOU couldn't be bothered - or even worse, weren't even suitably equipped - to make sure you had a legit target?

How are you any better than the pirate?

That is the crux of my complaint. I don't know how much clearer I can state it.

Be responsible. Exercise target discrimination and fire discipline. It's a generally older and more "commitment bound" community that plays this game, people who don't have the luxury of playing for hours at a time. So *please* be responsible and considerate, and question, *before* you pull the trigger, that you're about to start shooting at another person who has just sunk precious and limited hours or days into progression that you are about to wipe out because you're lazy and ill-disciplined. Once it's done, it's done, and all the "Ooops, I'm sorry!" in the world won't undo what you've done. Your wanting to have fun blowing up virtual spaceships does *NOT* trump their desire to enjoy their limited gaming time. Check your targets, and don't engage if you don't have reason.

In short, be considerate. It's entirely possible to have your fun, fully enjoy this game, and even PVP in this game, without it having a negative, unintended consequence on other people. All it takes is a few seconds to perform a scan. A player, in open space, with no wanted status and no illegal cargo, that you have to repeatedly pull out of SC & don't once scan before you attack them? That's not a target. It's a victim.

That's not PVP, there's nothing consensual about it, it's griefing, plain and simple.

So, pretty please, do the damn scan.


So again. If you *can't* or *won't* take the time to scan your targets, as a "bounty hunter", then don't interdict ships. Stick to places where you can manage to get it right to actually check your targets before you try to kill them. Places like Nav Points. Conflict Zones. USSs'.

Leave ships in open space alone. You are obviously not competant enough a bounty hunter, or player for that matter, to perform target descrimination.

 

[Amaze]

- open (PVP)
- open (PVE)

and some issues would be fixed for lot of ppl.

Pryrates

I cant see the problem with that.
oh wait, yes I can.
It means less easy targets roaming about.

If the PvP crowd wanted true competitive Pvp they would like the idea.

 

[Unpleasant]

I guess if you have no power in the real world, you can always login to Elite and peewee pee a shield-less sidewinder to feel powerful. lol

 

[Tuzmaal]

Most people are not PVP hardcores, so don't repeatedly beat up on the same person.

Fact is that many PVP hero wannabes DO engage in toxic behaviour against noob sidewinders and traders, and they give PVP a bad name.

The fact that most of you simply dont understand how this game works really baffles me sometimes... Tell me, how braindead must someone be, getting killed in his Hauler/Sidewinder etc. just leaving the Station and volleyed by 14 year old xXI3@tN00b$4DiNN3RXx in his Anaconda and then comming back without changing instance ? The % to end up again with this is zero to none and if you really fear Frontier matchmaking gonna troll you just block that tard. On top of that, why should Haulers be "off limit" or "unfair" ? It could be xXI3@tN00b$4DiNN3RXx grinding for his next Conda upgrades to gank some n00bs with ?

edit: I guess the majority of those GriefGriefGrief crybabies are the ones that are just bitter that offline didnt make it to release. But fact is very little grief is actually happening, you just damaging the reputation of the online mode.

 

[Zekerbox]

Again, the point is missed.

Scan and search, in and of itself? Knock yourself out. Legit game mechanic. To see IF I have a bounty, or IF I have cargo worth stealing, assuming you're a pirate. The fact remains that as a bounty hunter, a private citzen, not a member of law enforcement, you have no legal right or mandate to do so, but whatever, we'll ignore that for now.

If you don't scan me, to see either of those things, or if you scan me and I *don't* have a bounty, especially if you're a self-proclaimed "bounty hunter", then why the hell are you attacking me?

That's the problem. Again, it's not a game mechanic that's the problem, it's player behaviour, by those who profess to be bringing justice to those who are guilty of the crimes that some so called bounty hunters are *themselves* guilty of.

Piracy is expected. It's welcomed. The pirate is taking his chances as much as you are. But when a so called, and self professed "bounty hunter" decides that "Well, I don't know if he's got a bounty, I haven't checked, but I'm just going to shoot this guy full of holes anyway for the hell of it!"?

And when it turns out your unprovoked and unjustified attack just cost an innocent player several million credits, because YOU couldn't be bothered - or even worse, weren't even suitably equipped - to make sure you had a legit target?

How are you any better than the pirate?

That is the crux of my complaint. I don't know how much clearer I can state it.

Be responsible. Exercise target discrimination and fire discipline. It's a generally older and more "commitment bound" community that plays this game, people who don't have the luxury of playing for hours at a time. So *please* be responsible and considerate, and question, *before* you pull the trigger, that you're about to start shooting at another person who has just sunk precious and limited hours or days into progression that you are about to wipe out because you're lazy and ill-disciplined. Once it's done, it's done, and all the "Ooops, I'm sorry!" in the world won't undo what you've done. Your wanting to have fun blowing up virtual spaceships does *NOT* trump their desire to enjoy their limited gaming time. Check your targets, and don't engage if you don't have reason.

In short, be considerate. It's entirely possible to have your fun, fully enjoy this game, and even PVP in this game, without it having a negative, unintended consequence on other people. All it takes is a few seconds to perform a scan. A player, in open space, with no wanted status and no illegal cargo, that you have to repeatedly pull out of SC & don't once scan before you attack them? That's not a target. It's a victim.

That's not PVP, there's nothing consensual about it, it's griefing, plain and simple.

So, pretty please, do the damn scan.


So again. If you *can't* or *won't* take the time to scan your targets, as a "bounty hunter", then don't interdict ships. Stick to places where you can manage to get it right to actually check your targets before you try to kill them. Places like Nav Points. Conflict Zones. USSs'.

Leave ships in open space alone. You are obviously not competant enough a bounty hunter, or player for that matter, to perform target descrimination.

Well put, can't agree more. Your post sums up most of the points I have been trying to make.

I wouldn't change the game, but maybe this thread will change some perspectives on PvP and what is legitamate/respectful PvP.

 

[Adnams Drinker]

The anti-PvP sentiment is derived from experiences of other games irrespective if those other experiences are actually transferable to Elite

This is true - I've been griefed in WoW and it is indeed not fun, so I avoid PvP in all online games as a result. Makes me an archetypal carebear, but so what? I play video games for relaxation and fun at the end of a working day and during that limited time frame, I don't expect to be used as target practice for those that have more game time available to them or those that are just flat-out anti-social.

I appreciate what the OP is trying to do - essentially justify blowing you out of the sky, as long as he and his comrades metaphorically pat you on the back and say 'no hard feelings' afterwards. Raffles the Gentleman Thief and his chums. He may have got his kicks, but you possibly lose hundreds or thousands of credits in insurance or lost cargo - it may indeed be 'only a game', but that may represent several hours of graft for a newish player.

If that's how they get their kicks and it isn't against the rules of the game, then fine - it's not my bag personally, but each to their own. PvE-inclined players do have a couple of options - if somebody forces PvP on you, then block them. Or if you'd rather not get shot down in the first place, join a PvE private group - I joined Mobius during gamma and play as part of that group all the time. Those who play open and then complain about being used as cannon fodder for the OP and his chums need to explore their options.