please don't confuse PvPers with griefers

[Bnethor]

I neither exploit nor cheat, Im not concerned. Do you have some sort of official statement from FD that combat logging is considered a cheat or exploit? Ive never seen it. If they give me a warning then I suppose Ill just have to stick to solo play until they fix this glaring mistake, but I don't expect that will come.

Wanna bet? Also 15 seconds near a station is plenty of time to blow you up, even with a suicide fit. Say a viper equipped with 4 dumbfire launchers, cheap and efficient and even if it doesn't kill you (say you're in a bigger ship) that's some nice player interaction you just got there with a hefty repair bill to accompany it

 

[Dabba]

Wanna bet? Also 15 seconds near a station is plenty of time to blow you up, even with a suicide fit. Say a viper equipped with 4 dumbfire launchers, cheap and efficient and even if it doesn't kill you (say you're in a bigger ship) that's some nice player interaction you just got there with a hefty repair bill to accompany it

In my ASP with 5A shields 4 dumbfire missiles might, just maybe, take my shields down. Then my cloak goes up (although in all honesty it probably went up far before the missiles hit, since I have some pretty long range sensors and get the missile warning quite early), and security probably annihilates you. This is a scenario I can live with. I encourage you to find me and try it.

 

[ReaperAlex]

To the OP.

If you're happy with your chosen play style I wouldn't worry about being called a griefer. It sounds to me that you feel your way of doing things is ok. Who cares what others say? It's just a name. Your bound to meet others who feel the same and be able to fight them and put them on your friends list. Play the game your way.

i'm not currently pvping, and if or when i go down that route i'm not sure how i will go about it. i doubt i'd chase down traders, i'd certainly look into combat sites.

but what gets me is how a large chunk of this community is so quick to pain pvpers with the evil brush. it's a horrific clash of play styles and i'm trying to set the record straight on what motivates a pvper.

it's not about inflicting suffering on others, it's about having a ruddy good scrap. sadly it's also hard to find such a scrap so it invariably becomes big fish vs little fish and the big fish won't turn away from a meal when it's starving.

 

[Bnethor]

In my ASP with 5A shields 4 dumbfire missiles might, just maybe, take my shields down. Then my cloak goes up (although in all honesty it probably went up far before the missiles hit, since I have some pretty long range sensors and get the missile warning quite early), and security probably annihilates you. This is a scenario I can live with. I encourage you to find me and try it.

Looks like you have no idea what you're talking about. Dumbfire missiles don't give missile warnings because they don't lock on. Also they can be launched quite rapidly. All I need to do is to park next to you and I can let fly 20 missiles in 5 seconds. I'm pretty sure that's gonna do a number on your asp.

 

[Fox McCloud]

I feel it would be better if people would quit talking about EVE whenever there's a discussion about Elite: Dangerous. I don't care what the rules were in some other game. They don't apply here. This is not EVE. In fact this game is in some respects meant to be the antithesis of EVE, and every other made-by-conglomerates title out there.

Make your arguments cogent, well thought-out and insightful, but do it without saying, 'I wish this was EVE!' Please.

There is no reason ideas can't develop from systems implemented in other games. No this game isn't Eve and it shouldn't try to be but if someone suggests looking at how another game approaches a similar problem there is no reason to discredit it simply because "this isn't that game". In fact I would think you would be inclined to learn from how other successful games deal with the problem, doesn't mean you have to copy it. For example, with the problem of pvp Eve does has a VERY solid criminal system in place and it works well so why shouldn't we learn and develop ideas from that? Certainly that is better than just saying "PvP toggle, problem fixed" like many are doing.

 

[Tradesman]

There is no reason ideas can't develop from systems implemented in other games. No this game isn't Eve and it shouldn't try to be but if someone suggests looking at how another game approaches a similar problem there is no reason to discredit it simply because "this isn't that game". In fact I would think you would be inclined to learn from how other successful games deal with the problem, doesn't mean you have to copy it. For example, with the problem of pvp Eve does has a VERY solid criminal system in place and it works well so why shouldn't we learn and develop ideas from that? Certainly that is better than just saying "PvP toggle, problem fixed" like many are doing.

The developers have already done that and they decided not to go down that road.

 

[Avago Earo]

i'm not currently pvping, and if or when i go down that route i'm not sure how i will go about it. i doubt i'd chase down traders, i'd certainly look into combat sites.

but what gets me is how a large chunk of this community is so quick to pain pvpers with the evil brush. it's a horrific clash of play styles and i'm trying to set the record straight on what motivates a pvper.

it's not about inflicting suffering on others, it's about having a ruddy good scrap. sadly it's also hard to find such a scrap so it invariably becomes big fish vs little fish and the big fish won't turn away from a meal when it's starving.

Fair comment.

 

[Fox McCloud]

The developers have already done that and they decided not to go down that road.

If that is the case then why bother with asking for a pvp toggle, plenty of games have done that so surely they are aware of it and decided against it. That would also mean there is no reason for suggestions or hopes for changes to game mechanics. So then why bother addressing the bad pvp system at all?

 

[Tradesman]

If that is the case then why bother with asking for a pvp toggle, plenty of games have done that so surely they are aware of it and decided against it. That would also mean there is no reason for suggestions or hopes for changes to game mechanics. So then why bother addressing the bad pvp system at all?

I didn't ask for pvp toggle.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

If that is the case then why bother with asking for a pvp toggle, plenty of games have done that so surely they are aware of it and decided against it. That would also mean there is no reason for suggestions or hopes for changes to game mechanics. So then why bother addressing the bad pvp system at all?

In fact that could be the very reasons there is a solo mode.

 

[SirGirard]

this seems to be a reoccurring theme on these boards, if a player shoots someone and it's not for profit, then it must be to cause grief.

that is simply not true. i've played eve-online for years, both as a carebear, and a PvPer. now eve is well known for its griefers, but what you might not know is there is also a very large community of PvPers who are not griefers. in fact if you head out to lawless space where it's effectively open PvP you'll be hard pushed to find a griefer.

you see PvPers love nothing more than to have a good scrap then laugh about it after. sure sometimes the loss might hurt, and they will just drop a "good fight" in chat then go lick their wounds, but they will laugh about it later. other times the fight might be so good that they start chatting with their enemy right away. if a newbie wanders into this dangerous zone and gets blown up and stops to talk to the "evil pirates" what they will invariably get is a ton of advice and help on what to do next time.

you see these players are not out to cause grief, they are out to have fun scrapping. if you go into an open PvP world in any game then you have to assume there will be people there who just want to have fun scrapping. not to cause you misery, but to enjoy a fight.

and no they will not pick a honourable or fair fight. they will run away when the odds are against them just as they will give chase when the odds are in their favour, because it's all fair game in open PvP (ok, sometimes they will run when the odds are suspiciously in their favour as they might suspect a trap).

if you get to a place where you accept that just undocking means you might never dock in that ship again then the open PvP world can be a lot more exciting than the controlled NPC world.

you see when an NPC interdicts you, it can be quite a boring affair, it's either a fed or a bounty at your feet. when a player interdicts you then suddenly you might be fighting for your life, hammering the boost button as fast as you can praying the FSD will spool up in time.

in short PvP can give you more of an adrenaline rush than an NPC ever could, that is why it's a great thing in such a game and that is why i play open (unless an outpost is full *mutters*)

what we really need is some way to chat after the fight. that is how communities form. it's no good being able to chat during the fight, take your finger off the stick and you might just as well hit self destruct. we need the ability to talk after the fight when one player is in station a few jumps away.

~~~
edit:
~~~

i'm adding a post to this that further explains the pvpers mentality, touching on why pvpers will run away from a fight and why the will chase weaker targets. this is a quote from a post i made on page 9


look at it this way, generally players of any type dont want to lose their ship. so when i'm playing i don't pick up the 150K hunting missions as i don't feel ready for an elite anaconda yet. though i do hope to get an average anaconda spawn at my hunting grounds especially if there are some feds to soak up the turret fire. i gravitate towards fights i can win and avoid ones i feel are too risky


the exact same happens in pvp. players will make a judgement call as to if they think they can win. if they don't they try to escape.


as for the seal clubbing, that comes from another problem. when i log on tonight i know that i can rock up at a nav beacon and be pulling in the bounties within 5 mins. a pvper on the other hand might go all night looking for a fight, so that newbie in a sidewinder might be the only fight they get that evening. i've spent plenty of nights in eve not getting into a single fight in the lawless regions of space (thankfully in eve those who do not want to pvp can stick to the lawful regions of space, we've got a bit of a problem in that regard in elite as things stand).


heck one night in eve some of us took industrial ships (think something the size of a type-9 with regards to cargo capacity but with the defences of a hauler) and went out looking for a fight. there were about 10 of us and we were hoping to find a few smaller ships or a lone bigger ship to surprise. the only thing we found was a fleet of about 100 players, some in cruisers (think viper/cobra) and some in frigs (thing sidey/eagle). the thing to note about frigs is they are much much faster than cruisers and industrial ships and they can be built to stop a ship from escaping.


10 of us vs 100, and they had the speed to pounce on us and stop us from escaping


but the 10 of us were a close knit team. the time it took us to race from system to system even in our lumbering ships was faster than that massive fleet just due to our efficiency as a unit. the lumbering fleet was taking an age to get organised for each jump to the next system. what they should have done is let the frigs lose on us then caught up with whatever they managed to catch.


that nicely sums up open pvp. you want a fight, once in a blue moon you get a fair fight, but most of the time one side is going to out match the other side, and despite the unfair odds the better side will give chase as that might be the only fight they get that night.


so, does that explain the mentality somewhat behind why a pvper might attack a sidewinder? it really is not about lording it over the weak, or about ruining some ones day. it's about being a fish in the big ocean hoping to catch some prey you can take down while avoiding the bigger fish that can take you down.


that's what i'm trying to get across here. it's not that i don't understand the way pvp can upset people, i have been there myself. it's that those doing the hunting are just looking for a fight, and with slim pickings they will take what they can get, and no you can't expect them to roll over and play dead when they meet a more powerful opponent.


it's not malicious, and right now the mechanics of the game supports the pvp play style far more than it does the coop play style. solo is catered for, but we don't play MMO's for the silent solo experience.


so by all means call for a proper coop mode beyond player organised ones. but please stop calling pvpers griefers and assuming they are getting kicks from ruining your day. that's really not fair to a group of players who would gladly teach you how to fight and be happy to fight by your side. most pvpers are friendly people. i'm fighting to have their name cleared from the association they currently have in elite with griefers. also the mechanics suck for both parties.

The OP should take some rep on this, a good view of what fun PvP can be. Taking on another player is always more difficult and loads of fun, even if your FSD don't spool up in time and you end up back at your respawn point claiming insurance!

 

[Dabba]

Looks like you have no idea what you're talking about. Dumbfire missiles don't give missile warnings because they don't lock on. Also they can be launched quite rapidly. All I need to do is to park next to you and I can let fly 20 missiles in 5 seconds. I'm pretty sure that's gonna do a number on your asp.

Can't wait to see it. Come and get me tough guy.

 

[Tradesman]

The OP should take some rep on this, a good view of what fun PvP can be. Taking on another player is always more difficult and loads of fun, even if your FSD don't spool up in time and you end up back at your respawn point claiming insurance!

Absolutely. And lets remember that even in Eve living in high sec did not guarantee immunity from pvp specially since the last changes they made before I Left earlier this year.

 

[ReaperAlex]

Attacking players in inferior conditions just for the lulz sounds a lot like grieffing. If you just like "the thrill" of combat, then you can go about killing NPCs. Let's face it... higher ranking NPCs are more of a challenge than a newcomer player, so if you say that you don't do that because the NPCs are easier I won't believe it.

What the OP describes to me feels like roleplaying a murderer (as opposed to actual piracy), but whatever immersion might exists goes out the window when you decide to target only human players.

Also: I play Open because I like the chance encounter with other fellow Commanders, it is not an open invitation to grieffing. That being said, it is true that I do accept the perils of PvP, I just expect there to be some logic behind it.

this is where the game fails to cater for you. many MMO's are coop in nature, currently elite only supports player organised coop games. it does not organise it's own coop game. we have solo, group or open. all the rules support open being a free for all pvp arena

the penalties for pvp are trivial, you can pay off a fine when you're done breaking the law.

ship loss is comparatively trivial with the only significant loss being what ever cargo you had. in eve you get back about 50% of your ships base cost, if you paid up front for insurance, which is a monthly thing and if you didn't insure there is no option at time of destruction. that payout is often a fraction of the cost of better ships who's value are not from the common raw materials but the rare stuff they need to be created with. there is also no insurance for modules. eve has much harsher losses and much stricter punishments for breaking the law.

elite could have implemented a similar system. but they did not. they have implemented a system that is a lot like the dangerous areas of eve, the ones which still have laws but those laws are not really enforced.

this is the problem, the game really does cater for the pvpers with very little penalties. yet those who want coop have to share a world with those who want pvp as the options are too limiting.

as for the murder sim, roleplay does not come into it. i know roleplay, i have a halfling named thunderfoot who is my favourite character. i do not however roleplay when i play an FPS pvp game. nor do i roleplay when i play GTA. i play those games for the fun of them not to scratch my desire to roleplay. i did not roleplay when i was active in the pvp community of eve and while i will happily respond in character to any other RPer i do not expect i'll be doing much RPing in elite regardless of what i'm doing (currently bounty hunting NPC's)

trying to read motivation into pvp in terms of a character's motivations is like trying to ask a sportsman about their acting career. RPers RP, actors act. a sportsman is out there to play the game (and if it's pro probably to earn a lot of cash), they are not out there to develop their acting skills (unless its WWF).

now yes you might ask what's sporting about shooting at easy targets, nothing really, it's just when that's the only target you find to shoot at then you're going to be inclined to shoot at it. i've updated my OP with more insight on this

 

[Antmax]

Elite isn't a PvP game. PvP games typically don't let you lose much except pride when you die. My PvP game of choice is War Thunder where you get rewards regardless of whether you win or lose. Rewards that you can spend to upgrade your planes, crew training etc. But you never actually lose anything, even repairs are free if your willing to wait between 5 mins and a week in realtime (depending on the value and technology of the plane).

Elite is not that kind of game, combat isn't even a primary part of the game. You can even enter a conflict zone and are not supposed to be attacked until you chose sides. The NPC's certainly won't attack you if you just want to investigate one of the capitol ships in a combat zone. If you attack someone then your side is established for you. But this game was never intended to be a PvP one. Unconsentual PvP when the other player can lose something they spent weeks or months establishing is no different than a mugging.

The betas were rife with griefers at certain points, especially before security forces and stations could intervene. Many of us got to experience a lot of frustration with it, combined with various crash bugs to do with docking platforms and disappearing stations I think a lot of us have had enough. There are places where you expect to be attacked and others where you don't but the problem is that humans seem to like breaking rules.

That's essentially why I play in the Mobius PvE group. Unfortunately even with 1600+ people you do not get to see other players. I've seen only one since release started. This game was never intended to have a PvP mode, just watch the developer diaries where this it mentioned many times. It's unfortunate that PvP players insist on forcing a lot of people out of open play where they might actually meet other players, chat and hangout. Kind of sad really and completely against the intended spirit of the game.

 

[Tradesman]

Elite isn't a PvP game. PvP games typically don't let you lose much except pride when you die. My PvP game of choice is War Thunder where you get rewards regardless of whether you win or lose. Rewards that you can spend to upgrade your planes, crew training etc. But you never actually lose anything, even repairs are free if your willing to wait between 5 mins and a week in realtime (depending on the value and technology of the plane).

Elite is not that kind of game, combat isn't even a primary part of the game. You can even enter a conflict zone and are not supposed to be attacked until you chose sides. If you attack someone then your side is established for you. But this game was never intended to be a PvP one. Unconsentual PvP when the other player can lose something they spent weeks or months establishing is no different than a mugging.

The betas were rife with griefers at certain points, especially before security forces and stations could intervene. Many of us got to experience a lot of frustration with it, combined with various crash bugs to do with docking platforms and disappearing stations I think a lot of us have had enough. There are places where you expect to be attacked and others where you don't but the problem is that humans seem to like breaking rules.

That's essentially why I play in the Mobius PvE group. Unfortunately even with 1600+ people you do not get to see other players. I've seen only one since release started. This game was never intended to have a PvP mode, just watch the developer diaries where this it mentioned many times. It's unfortunate that PvP players insist on forcing a lot of people out of open play where they might actually meet other players, chat and hangout. Kind of sad really and completely against the intended spirit of the game.

Elite supposed to be a cut throat unforgiving universe. The developers have it in their description somewhere.

 

[Crumplecorn]

Elite isn't a PvP game.

I guess all those players who shoot those others players are just imagining it then?

 

[Tradesman]

Dono if peeps actually done any research before buying this game but its all good.

 

[Beld]

Take control of your own starship in a cut-throat galaxy.

Start with a small starship and a few credits, and do whatever it takes to get the skill, knowledge, wealth and power to stand among the ranks of the Elite.

 

[Rhonda]

I always hear: if you don't want PvP go play solo. I'm not sure if the PvP-community is doing itself a favor with this argumentation.
I don't want to play solo, I want to meet other spacefarers and there should be more options of interaction than simply blasting each other into smithereens. I play open in hopes that I meet other people along the way, maybe have a little chat or even cooperate on something. But yeah, unfortunately Elite is quite limited in it's current state concerning chat/groups/meeting other people.

And this is where all the comparisons with EVE are missing the point. In EVE I have a lot of possibilities to interact with other players. You're not forced to meet other people just by unleashing your firepower on them. Here Elite needs urgent improvement!

 

[Dabba]

Well one good thing came of this thread other than reaffirming my general disdain for griefers, I was not aware of the Mobius group, but it looks like exactly what I was looking for while we wait for the pvp toggle to inevitably be implemented. I will be joining that group immediately, and hopefully the population will continue to grow while the Open population continues to shrink until FD realizes their mistake.