Powerplay Proposal of a chart for the support to Open mode in Powerplay

[Robert Maynard]

As others tried to explain in my place, this is not what my post was about, that's about my motivations.
In any case, given that we are where we are, what exactly are you criticising of what I said by saying:

I'm curious.

What's not to accept, regarding the choice of game mode made by other players when engaging in a game feature implemented in all three game modes?

 

[bigity]

Agree with OP. PP is better when done in Open. Let's throw in some perks to migrate folks that way.

FDev don't let mode 'equality' (which is a joke in the first place - balance should be the goal, not mirror images) stand in the way of making the game more alive, especially Power Play, which is in strong need of more life.

- - - Updated - - -

You know a forum is bad when a moderator intentionally and continually derails a thread.

Anything regarding Open mode brings em with the same copy and paste statements, in his mind anything that says Open is an attack on solo and PG modes.

- - - Updated - - -

/sigh.

I don't know why I'm still surprised people have not figured out PP was designed (like the rest of the game) around the ability for people to use all 3 game modes.

It is players pushing NPC tokens about.
Pick up a token and move it to another station or kill an NPC and get a token.
Which ever side gets the most tokens, wins that round for that week.

Player versus player interactions are not a major part of PP and never have been.

Speak for yourself. For the smaller powers, they very much are (or were - until neglect and ignored bugs drove people away).

 

[CMDR Adelind]

What's not to accept, regarding the choice of game mode made by other players when engaging in a game feature implemented in all three game modes?

Other people making choices for other people? Where are you getting that? He's asking for what probably (after any potential announcement post) end up being a line at the end up of the weekly write up that says "Whoever's leadership encourages open mode for PowerPlay in the spirit of the Treaty of Table 7. Here's where you can find wings, get help, and learn new techniques."

Also probably pins in Discord. That's not too much, is it?

Edit: Why is it unclear that this thread was about politics, not game mechanics?

 

[CMDR John Casey]

What's not to accept, regarding the choice of game mode made by other players when engaging in a game feature implemented in all three game modes?

It's not about the choice made by "other players" but the policy of groups. Players may choose whatever game mode they want, this thread is not about the single player. What I'm asking to groups that steer powers to sit together and establish a set of common rules about their preferred mode. What I don't accept is that different groups may play the same game using different rules. Given that Sandro told that, after thinking about it, people in open risk more in Powerplay, I don't accept that some groups may choose tho push their players to play private or solo while other groups have a policy of promoting open. I think that all groups should agree on the same thing.

If, at the end of the discussions, the groups agree to an "all private/solo" rule, it's ok, but then I won't play in a group. If they agree to "all open", fine for me. If they do nothing and everything stays as is, fine, it was just a proposal.

Edit: yes, also the fact of having groups promoting open by means of rules, guides, etc. seems a good idea to me.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It's not about the choice made by "other players" but the policy of groups. Players may choose whatever game mode they want, this thread is not about the single player.

Understood.

What I'm asking to groups that steer powers to sit together and establish a set of common rules about their preferred mode.

Best of luck.

What I don't accept is that different groups may play the same game using different rules. Given that Sandro told that, after thinking about it, people in open risk more in Powerplay, I don't accept that some groups may choose tho push their players to play private or solo while other groups have a policy of promoting open. I think that all groups should agree on the same thing.

I'd be pleased, for the Powerplay community, if that aim were achieved.

If, at the end of the discussions, the groups agree to an "all private/solo" rule, it's ok, but then I won't play in a group. If they agree to "all open", fine for me. If they do nothing and everything stays as is, fine, it was just a proposal.

It would be interesting to know what the outcome of the discussions ends up being.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Edit: Why is it unclear that this thread was about politics, not game mechanics?

.... because of the way that the opening post in the thread is phrased, specifically regarding the opinion that a player group engaging in Powerplay solely in Solo / PG is "unacceptable" (when the feature has been implemented in all three game modes).

 

[Brett C]

You know a forum is bad when a moderator intentionally and continually derails a thread.

Moderators are permitted to debate and discuss in threads. Said moderators who participate in threads are not permitted to moderate within the thread. I do watch this with an eagle eye.

If it's continuously off-topic, message me, i will check into it.

 

[Soon(TM)]

I fully support Power Play to be ONLY in Open play. It will drive human interaction as the players won't be able to build up merits without risk and more important they will be able to perform important missions and know where they stand as opposed to some non-Federation factions doing it all behind closed doors......

Me too, because it means It will be like it never existed for us private and solo players, thank God!

 

[Cmdr Basskicker]

Kind of a pointless discussion IMO. Most player groups that were around when I was fully involved with Powerplay claimed to do their work in open(I am semi aware of current events so I know what prompted the OP). So trying to get everyone to agree to something that can't be proven one way or another is laughable and will only lead to more mudslinging than already happens in Powerplay. Of course all groups that care about their rep are going to say they PP only in open, and of course at the end of the day some of those groups will continue to grind out their merits in private.

The mudslinging combined with Fdev's apathetic approach to Powerplay is why I don't bother anymore, and tbh I'm at a loss as to why anyone from the Federation cares anymore.

 

[Jockey79]

.....

Edit: Why is it unclear that this thread was about politics, not game mechanics?

First post is quoting the post from Sandro about giving open mode a bonus over the other modes and saying he agrees with it - AKA, the first post is advocating changing the game mechanics to favour open.
The second post calling for open to get a bonus over the other 2 modes (same as the OP)
3rd post calling for PP to be open only.

At what point was it supposed to be about politics only?
When even the OP pushes Sandros idea of open only bonuses in the game mechanics.

....

Lead game designer Sandro Sammarco already showed some support for Open mode in Powerplay. I'd like to highlight in particular this remark about giving a bonus to Open:

Clear yet?
Can you see the OP pushing a bonus for open mode?

 

[rjwhite41]

I see 2 people derailing a thread where nearly everyone else agrees. I also recognize most of the names in this thread after a year and a half in powerplay. The 2 dissident voices, I only recognize from these forums.

To know anything about this issue you must be involved with organized powerplay. It is a team game and if you are playing it on your own without the goals of the team in mind than you are grinding for no reason.

Our group encourages open play by all but we don't require it anymore than any other group. I personally do all my powerplay activities in open and most of the cmdrs I play with do as well. I don't look down upon any cmdr who doesn't join me but I certainly discourage cmdrs using private group to gain an advantage. This is where the issue lies. In powerplay you gain a major advantage by playing in private group. Currently there is an entire power that encourages private group. This group amassed hundreds of thousands of merits throughout the cycle and dropped them in the final hours of the cycle with no opposition and little to no risk. They also encouraged combat logging but that is another issue. There is also an exploit that we believe they abused that can only be done in private group but I refuse to speak about that because I don't want to spread it. These abuses are certainly helping with the current attack on my power.

Now, how is open more risky? I am in a unique position to discuss that. I am nearly always on a bounty board somewhere. That bounty board shows my last known location at all times. I am also known by my enemies to frequently horde merits for snipes and bombs. On Wednesday night I nearly always am confronted by cmdrs from other powers. In fact, I warn all who fly with me to be prepared should this happen. Now you cannot tell me that someone playing in private group or solo has the same risk as me. I'm afraid that is just not possible. In fact, on one occasion this type of confrontation completely negated a successful snipe and on another occasion it led to turmoil of my power because a system did not get fortified in the final minutes that needed to.

Why do I play in open? Sportsmanship. Powerplay is inherently a PVP game even thought it is not always direct PVP. It is my group vs your group. If it is merely a grinding contest then I have no more interest in it.

The idea Sandro threw out was that my power would get a bonus for open activities, not me personally. If fdev cares about open play at all and a shared inhabited galaxy for us all please consider Sandro's suggestion for both powerplay and community goals. The galaxy isn't filled with hateful gankers despite what all the people in solo and Mobius like to say. If the game is truly supposed to be balanced across all modes then this is the only logical way forward. Those of us in open are risking more and we are making the galaxy and the game more lively for it.

Cheers John!

 

[CMDR John Casey]

I see 2 people derailing a thread where nearly everyone else agrees. I also recognize most of the names in this thread after a year and a half in powerplay. The 2 dissident voices, I only recognize from these forums.

Thank you for helping to keep the thread in the right direction despite these attempts to derail it.

To know anything about this issue you must be involved with organized powerplay. It is a team game and if you are playing it on your own without the goals of the team in mind than you are grinding for no reason.

...

Why do I play in open? Sportsmanship. Powerplay is inherently a PVP game even thought it is not always direct PVP. It is my group vs your group. If it is merely a grinding contest then I have no more interest in it.

I agree completely on this. To be more clear, one of the reasons that made me make this thread is that when this happens:

Spoiler

[video=youtube;vUQM1lKxH0Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUQM1lKxH0Y[/video]

(If anyone wonders what's happening, that's an Imperial wing attacking our undermining team and disrupting thousands of UM merits)

Then you may have things like this:
https://twitter.com/ED_Corrigendum/status/824117879717163009

And all of this, because of our sportmanship and our willingness to play in open. Now, if a group is pushing their private-only agenda, we'll never have such kind of interactions within the game. Should we (Hudson power) be the content for everybody? We find CMDRs camping our capital on a daily basis, but if you go to Clayakarma, no one is there. Never. And they are currently the most active power in game.
Now this is the dilemma: if everybody condones the private-only policy, the kind of interactions you see here will disappear. If we ask our underminers to stay in private groups (because it would be dumb to be the only ones to put at risk their achievements), maybe we will keep our merits safe, then there won't be any more medals or stories to publish on GalNet. And that is, in my opinion, to the detriment of the game in general.

Now that's why I made an appeal to all power steering groups, because we need to discuss together about this situation.

 

[zxalexis]

If the game is truly supposed to be balanced across all modes then this is the only logical way forward. Those of us in open are risking more

Oh, you forgot to add that all 300k+ merits were grinded by your pvp-fitted wing exclusively in open mode last cycle (in Pethes 265k+), as the pevious attempts in Badjarans, 27b1 Cygni, BD+43 etc. We all are seeing PP activity of all powers hidden in private groups or solo-preparation.

And don't be fooled in counting of your supporters reading this thread - it is nothing to say about another "they Turmoiled my lovely Great Power, help!" thread...

And yes - I think Sandro's ideas about encouraging open-play activity are good at all, but it must be encouraged in all activities, not only PP. Free trading, mining and doing all sorts of missions too. High-security systems must be high-security not only by label.

P.S. I am not pledged to any power (low-ranked newb, watching stats frequently)

 

[rjwhite41]

Oh, you forgot to add that all 300k+ merits were grinded by your pvp-fitted wing exclusively in open mode last cycle (in Pethes 265k+), as the pevious attempts in Badjarans, 27b1 Cygni, BD+43 etc. We all are seeing PP activity of all powers hidden in private groups or solo-preparation.

And don't be fooled in counting of your supporters reading this thread - it is nothing to say about another "they Turmoiled my lovely Great Power, help!" thread...

And yes - I think Sandro's ideas about encouraging open-play activity are good at all, but it must be encouraged in all activities, not only PP. Free trading, mining and doing all sorts of missions too. High-security systems must be high-security not only by label.

P.S. I am not pledged to any power (low-ranked newb, watching stats frequently)

Good job not properly reading my post or even responding to the quote you pulled from it. You do deserve some recognition for that.

To respond to you, the non power play cmdr derailing this powerplay thread, you would be amazed how many of those merits were earned in open. I am not here crying about turmoil. I am here requesting honest sportsmanship from all parties involved (which evidently doesn't include you).

 

[6xes]

i would support powerplay in open.. definately the way it shouldve been from the start!!
it wouldve prevented the 5C problem in earlier times

 

[aspiringexpatriate]

I liked Sandro's first hand grenade proposal. Every CMDR sees exactly no change. The change occurs on the Power level, i.e. a merit earned in PG/Solo is worth 1/5th the merits earned in Open. 700t delivered in Solo would be 140 merits for the Power, but 700 merits for the CMDR.

I like that idea, as no one directly suffers from it.

Sadly, the bug Corrigendum mentions is all too real, and makes any sort of Open benefit for merits impossible adhere to. I was opposing an expansion (legally) two weeks ago, and as I was leaving the station, it started firing at me. If I wasn't in my Cutter with 8C BiWeaves and already 3km away from the Starport, I'd have exploded. I was allied with the Federation the last time I checked. My wingman at the time was not, and he had just entered the instance. I barely escaped. ALD has a CMDR who was hostile with the Feds, and he was sitting in the Empire owned starport in ALD HQ. He logged into Open, and the station immediately started firing at him. So he logged out and back into Solo. Our pilots who undermine have to return to Empire owned HQ in solo because any CMDR present will force the starport to start firing at them. It's ridiculous, and it prevents any one of us from advocating an open only stance.

I encourage it personally, and I endorse those who encourage it, but with the current state of the game, there's no way anyone should be pushing for an official stance.

 

[Jockey79]

I liked Sandro's first hand grenade proposal. Every CMDR sees exactly no change. The change occurs on the Power level, i.e. a merit earned in PG/Solo is worth 1/5th the merits earned in Open. 700t delivered in Solo would be 140 merits for the Power, but 700 merits for the CMDR.

I like that idea, as no one directly suffers from it.

Wrong, anyone not playing in open "suffers" from it - as they are treated like lesser contributors to the cause.

So I paid for my game, just as much a you did - but I'm to be valued less in game, because some people say so?
Also, once folks understand playing PP in any other mode than open is pointless, you'll lose those players from PP as there will be not point playing - How will that make it better?

This wont "encourage" anyone to move to open, it will discourage them from Elite as they will be 2nd rate citizens of the game.

- - - Updated - - -

I see 2 people derailing a thread where nearly everyone else agrees......

Really?

I've seen the first 3 posts of the thread asking for open players to receive special treatment over PG / Solo players (which isn't what the OP claims thread is about in further posts) - and 2 of us have responded to that directly (and been directly insulted for it).

 

[QBit4D]

First post is quoting the post from Sandro about giving open mode a bonus over the other modes and saying he agrees with it - AKA, the first post is advocating changing the game mechanics to favour open.

Not true, disingenuous paraphrasing. He agrees with Sandro, that "playing in Open makes the game the best it can be for all involved. You can criticize that paraphrasing itself, but not construe out of it a strawman to then argue against.

Clear yet?
Can you see the OP pushing a bonus for open mode?

No. But I can your crudely constructed strawman doing so.


"and 2 of us have responded to that directly (and been directly insulted for it)."

Poor you.

 

[aspiringexpatriate]

Wrong, anyone not playing in open "suffers" from it - as they are treated like lesser contributors to the cause.

They don't directly suffer from it. They still get their same merit count and the ease of maintaining their rating with the power. The power suffers, so they do suffer indirectly by having their efforts weighed against the risk or relative lack thereof.

I've been fortifying in open mode for at least a year. I've never been interdicted by a CMDR trying to undermine. I have been interdicted by CMDRs trying to blow me up for no strategic reason.

The risk of flying in Open is debatable.

That should be your main argument, not that it would make a Solo player a second class citizen.

Sandro's hand grenade was a proposed balance pass, not a switch for punishing players who refuse to play in Open.

That addresses the primary argument you have with my statement.

If you care to read a detailed response to your comments, feel free to reveal the spoiler tag.

Spoiler

So I paid for my game, just as much a you did - but I'm to be valued less in game, because some people say so?

Because one of the game designers decides that power play participation in open mode entails more risk, so a re-balance of risk and reward is required. FDev rebalances this game all the time.

Also, once folks understand playing PP in any other mode than open is pointless,

It won't be pointless, as they'll still be getting the rating-based bonuses for which they pledged. I know every power is different. But I know that many CMDRs do the quickest route for rating maintenance, and then do their own thing. When ALD and Hudson expansions were unstoppable, it was mostly because CMDRs would wing up in a PvE private group and pile on 5-10000 merits each. For awhile, it was the fastest way for combat pilots to get 50 million credits a week. Those CMDRs will still be happy. They don't care how well the power is doing, they just want their merits/credits.

you'll lose those players from PP as there will be not point playing - How will that make it better?

In all honesty, I think the game would improve. Power Play was a great boon to developing communities for about six months. Since then its mechanics have been an anchor around the ankle of every participating community. Many left. Others can't leave because the power they've pledged to is the reason for their existence. Some are still having fun, but no one enjoys the current mechanics of power play. They work as a loose foundation for something that might be great soon™. Sadly, it took 18 months for FDev to release a hot patch that only served to plug the worst mechanic of the game. That was most likely 17 months too late, and was definitely 6 months too late.

This wont "encourage" anyone to move to open, it will discourage them from Elite as they will be 2nd rate citizens of the game.

Yeah. It might. I know the current mechanics of power play have driven off dozens of dedicated CMDRs.

I hope they stick around for other aspects of the game, and come back to power play when it makes sense to them again.

I am not one of the people who despise CMDRs who play in other game modes. I realise that Power Play was built as a PvP experience, but the cumulative measurement of goals implies that it was a Team PvP intention, not built for direct PvP encounters. I mean, destroying an enemy CMDR gave you no merits. Even now, it gives you 1 merit, and destroying a CMDR of your own power punishes you for maybe 60(?) merits.

If they adjust a few of the mechanics, you could wind up with a Power Play where fortifying in a wing with fighter escorts is encouraged, enjoyable, and rewarding.

Christ, even giving a wingman 5% of the merits delivered by someone in their wing would be huge. You escort a CMDR taking 700t? You get 35 merits. You fight of hostile NPCs or enemy CMDRs on that trip? Each one gives you 30 merits. Those merits don't apply to fortification or undermining, they are simply added to a CMDRs personal merit count.

You could wind up with situations where 3 Cutters, each hauling 700t have a single fighter escort earning 105 merits every trip, while the control system gets 2100t towards its trigger.

 

[Martin Schou]

I'm going to have to say no. I don't like dictating how other people play the game, regardless of how much I like or dislike an idea. If people want to run in private groups or solo, that's entirely up to them.

Personally I probably spend 95+% of my time in open, and 99+% when doing PowerPlay, but that's partly about leading by example rather than decree and partly because it's a great way to pick up new pledges whenever I come across them.

I've said it before, and it bears repeating - open only mode or even open bonuses for PowerPlay requires reworking of how merits are delivered, as some powers are guaranteed to get the short end of the stick if that's done, because they are bottlenecked in ways that other powers are not. Comparing Aisling and Mahon for example (to pick two trade powers), Aisling has no merit bottlenecks anywhere. Fortification merits are delivered to one of 70 destinations, whereas Mahon delivers fortification merits to ONE system. You kill an Aisling fortifier in Cubeo (outside a station instance), they are carrying 0 merits, kill a Mahon fortifier in Gateway (outside a station instance), they are carrying a full load.

Similarly for expansions - Aisling carries merits from their expansion system to any of 71 control systems, whereas Mahon carries merits from any of 119 control systems into ONE control system.

It's one thing to have this massive discrepancy in ability to blockade a power in open, when private and solo are options, but if those options goes away, it is no longer an even playing field - it's not even close to one. That's one group of powers playing American Football in full gear, and the other group of powers having to play in their vest and pants.

Yes, I get that it's annoying and illogical that you can blockade a system and see its numbers increase (typically expansion systems), but I'd argue it's even more annoying and illogical to be unable to know just how many of your own ships were destroyed until the enemy gives their own confirmation numbers (snipe undermining). It's equally stupid that systems generate thousands of tons of legislative records every week in the 3300s, when in 2016 you can buy a 256 GB micro-SD card which has a mass of less than 1 gram.