PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

[DaveB]

Yet less people are willing to be pirated,
i think some sharks overfished the poor tunas.

No, they didn't. Pirates are not responsible for trader frustration - look at the Code, perhaps the most representative group of pirates in the game. if you cooperate with them once they don't take too much AND they then let you go for a while rather than repeatedly pirating you on the same route. As a trader I breathe a huge sigh of relief when a pirate identifies themselves as Code.

FRUSTRATED pirates, folks that have simply had it with the difficulties of making that profession work and have turned to just being PKers - and there are a lot of these - along with the minority of idiots who just want to be asses are the ones responsible for the tuna population declining.

 

[Majinvash]

No, they didn't. Pirates are not responsible for trader frustration - look at the Code, perhaps the most representative group of pirates in the game. if you cooperate with them once they don't take too much AND they then let you go for a while rather than repeatedly pirating you on the same route. As a trader I breathe a huge sigh of relief when a pirate identifies themselves as Code.

FRUSTRATED pirates, folks that have simply had it with the difficulties of making that profession work and have turned to just being PKers - and there are a lot of these - along with the minority of idiots who just want to be asses are the ones responsible for the tuna population declining.

GARR!!! Thanks

We hope to return with the new patch that will inevitably nerf smuggling missions to be lower paying then regular good old trading.

Merchandise is available

http://shop.spreadshirt.co.uk/1082826



Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Julio Montega]

No, they didn't. Pirates are not responsible for trader frustration - look at the Code, perhaps the most representative group of pirates in the game. if you cooperate with them once they don't take too much AND they then let you go for a while rather than repeatedly pirating you on the same route. As a trader I breathe a huge sigh of relief when a pirate identifies themselves as Code.

FRUSTRATED pirates, folks that have simply had it with the difficulties of making that profession work and have turned to just being PKers - and there are a lot of these - along with the minority of idiots who just want to be asses are the ones responsible for the tuna population declining.

Wasn't aiming at the CODE,
but in general i get the feeling that some fishermen
didn't know the ropes.

As long as we have no "regulated pirate parlay party",
everyone can claim to be one, and rightfully so.
Yet he does pave the way people perceive pirates.

But enough of that riff raff.
Crime and punishment, yes please, punishment please.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Nice T-Shirt .. no thanks, but nice non the less

 

[DaveB]

GARR!!! Thanks ...

You're welcome - Every encounter I've had with the Code as a trader (and I've had quite a few, dammit!) has been reasonable - I've handed over cargo in most, because you guys can be trusted to follow your code and keep your word. A few times it went to a fight because I thought I had a chance and the risk was worth it (win/loss ratio about 3:1 in your favor, but that's ok) but even then "winning" the encounter rarely resulted in me popping one of you (I think I have claimed precisely ONE bounty on a Code member since release) but instead "convincing" the pirate to leave or successfully escaping myself. When "losing" it, most of the time I was able to surrender rather than getting popped (You've cost me two rebuys, but I started the fight so that's on me not you - the fact that I have a macro to comm "I surrender!" might be a factor in that low number)

 

[Zelos1983]

And even if he wasn't, this is the same old short-sighted "can't fix problem x because of problem y" argument that seems so prevalent on these forums. The answer is obvious: fix both problems.

You got it wrong. It's more like:
Problem x didn't exist before FD tried to "fix" problem y that was introduced by user error (choosing the wrong mode).

Therefore: Roll back.
Also: Fix real issues first.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

whether we are talking about generally increasing the consequences for "murder" - whether of clean NPCs or players - or introducing some specific mechanic addressing PvP kills the one thing that pretty much every suggestion has in common is that it must scale.

Agreed. Trickier is that Frontier clearly intend players - though not in piracy itself - to kill clean targets with reasonable cause, for example:
- powerplay
- "kill 30 authority/civilians/traders/bounty hunters" missions
- most assassination missions
- bounty hunters KWSing a locally-clean target
- pirates/smugglers/trespassers firing back on underequipped bounty hunters
- BGS influencing

So the consequences for murder - even much repeated murder - are highly unlikely to be so severe as to rule those out.

 

[DaveB]

Agreed. Trickier is that Frontier clearly intend players - though not in piracy itself - to kill clean targets with reasonable cause, for example:
- powerplay
- "kill 30 authority/civilians/traders/bounty hunters" missions
- most assassination missions
- bounty hunters KWSing a locally-clean target
- pirates/smugglers/trespassers firing back on underequipped bounty hunters
- BGS influencing

So the consequences for murder - even much repeated murder - are highly unlikely to be so severe as to rule those out.

Exactly. That's why my position on this issue has changed over time with my experiences in ED since Premium Beta. There are places in the game where destroying ships is what you are supposed to do to succeed. Whether that's a "destroy X [type]" mission, jumping into a CZ on one side or the other or whether it's PP or bounty hunting - these are all effectively the same in one regard. Blowing up other ships gets you (and/or your power/faction) something. As it stands now, I've zero issues with ALL those "things you get from blowing up other ships" having a slight bonus attached if the ship you got was piloted by a live player - in ANY mode. The bonus has to be "slight" so it doesn't unbalance PvE play - we're not talking about discriminating against one play style over another here, just rewarding the folks that seek out more dangerous targets in combat.

The moment you make any part of it mode-specific, though, you're driving that wedge into the player community. To me, at least, that's a bright hard line that FD should never cross.

 

[sewerratuk]

Hi Majinvash (and other pirates),

I am still a little confused by your stance. I do agree with you on a lot of comments regarding people playing in Open; If you play in Open anything goes, everyone should know that if they frequent these forums (hence our previous disagreement, I understand where you were coming from with a PvP league but Open is Open). If you don't equip yourself properly (both ship wise and experience wise) you will get destroyed/looted/griefed/etc. if you come across the wrong CMDR. Although you can never equip yourself for every eventuality you must admit.

OK, so here is where I don't really get what your stance is; you are part of The Code, a pirate faction trying to make a living by taking cargo from traders, so far so good, it should be a valid career path within ED, but then you say you are also a PKer, a Mobius invader, etc. and you also post what seems to be some baiting comments so now I don't know whether you are just trying to cause friction or you are passionate about your chosen pirate profession and want to make it a viable interaction in the ED world.

Anyway, I have an Anaconda and I really cannot think of much to do with it because I like the smaller ships (how anyone uses it as a battle ship I cannot figure, but thats for another post) so I decided to use it as a tradeconda with pirate/blockade busting abilities just for the fun of it, unfortunately my abilities are a little lacking at present so to tune them up I need some meaningful interaction. It's parked a Cemiess, which is one of your prowling grounds so how about you (and any other pirate out there) prove that this is a valid career choice. I am in open all the time and will do the trade route of Imp slaves into Cemiess on Tuesday to Thursday 8-10pm GMT next week (times may vary slightly depending on RL situations). Just constant backwards and forwards between there and LTT 9810 delivering those expensive goods (which I find quite boring).

I want to find a good load out, you want to pirate. Heres the proposition, I carry the goods, you interdict me (I will try to evade), I will run on fail, you try and stop me. If I get to 25%ish hull I will stop and unload as much cargo as you want (400T it will currently carry, I may change as I reconfigure the load out but not to the point of hull tanking), you let me go. If I manage to escape I promise to re-enter the system (if I HW because I also want to try LW) and drop the demanded cargo for you (if you desire). If you want to PK/grief me that is also fine I have plenty of rebuy's thanks to Robigo but it will get mentioned.

What do you say all you pirates?

 

[Midnight Sun]

Has anyone mentioned kill rights and compensation yet? If I get illegally blown up, I want the right to hunt down and terminate the perp, and extract the cost of my losses in compensation (payable as bounty, only to me). No time limit and effective everywhere a wanted target can be engaged. Obviously need some way of tracking the hunter who has now hopefully become the hunted.

 

[Iain L]

That sounds like a great idea, Midnight Sun.

I've only been pirated against a couple of times (not counting NPCs, who are too dumb to chat with) and if you successfully beat me at the interdiction game I wouldn't mind dropping a sensible amount of cargo for you. But most player interdictions against me have been for ganking my little Exploring Cobra, rather than when I've been carrying any cargo, and even when I do I'll not hang around to get shot at by someone who won't talk first.

Ask me to hand over an amount of cargo that I both carry and believe you can pick up in your small fighter, and I'll do so to save myself the hassle. But telling me that you'll open fire on my Vulture unless I happen to have 40t of Palladium magically tied to a roofrack, or that I must jettison all 196t from my T7 for your Cobra to pick up before they evaporate from the instance, and I'll not be impressed.

 

[dxm55]

The way I see it, other than an improved Crime and Punishment system, there are two things here which contribute to indiscriminate ganking or weaker ships/players. And these two things are related to PVP builds.

1) Hull Tanking
- HRPs specifically. If you removed HRPs from the game, that tank of an FDL suddenly isn't that much of a threat anymore. A multi-purpose ship will have a more even fight on his hands.
Bulkheads can stay. They provide a fixed percentage increase at a mass penalty. But HRPs are the reason why ships can run without shields.... which leads to....

2) Stealth/Silent Running setups.
- Once insane hull tanking is removed, ships will be weaker in general and will have to equip shields and SCBs once again.
While the more confident pilots can run silent for awhile and maybe avoid being shot at, against a good pilot they will eventually take damage and have to raise shields.


Once these two are nerfed somewhat, indiscriminate ganking probably won't be that easy. You will still get rail equipped FDLs running around. But at least you know they won't be the tanks that they currently are.


Before you rail at me... I'm not against PVP by any means. And I actually use a hull-tanked Vulture. But then again, what's good for me might not necessarily be good for the game in general....
Besides... removing hull tanking might separate the men from the boys. The ones who can actually fly, vs the ones who just have a better setup or more armor to boot....



Which brings us next to.... NPC wingmen for hire.
I wonder if FD has this in the pipeline. Paying a small fee for a couple of NPC Pythons, FDLs, or Anacondas to escort you wouldn't be such a bad idea.
Along with nerfing HRPs, it might even mean that your lightly armed T9 might actually survive an encounter with a ganker.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

FRUSTRATED pirates, folks that have simply had it with the difficulties of making that profession work and have turned to just being PKers - and there are a lot of these - along with the minority of idiots who just want to be asses are the ones responsible for the tuna population declining.

This 'logic' has always eluded me.

I would like to do piracy
The mechanics of piracy are not to my liking
I will take this frustration out on other players
I will then make a thread about how everyone cowardly hides in solo
After that I'll demand open to be paid more to draw players back into open
but since the pirate mechanics haven't changed, I'm still frustrated
I will take this frustration out on other players

 

[Tetryl]

2) Stealth/Silent Running setups.
- Once insane hull tanking is removed, ships will be weaker in general and will have to equip shields and SCBs once again.
While the more confident pilots can run silent for awhile and maybe avoid being shot at, against a good pilot they will eventually take damage and have to raise shields.

It's also quite bad that you can be in silent running while firing weapons. Weapons fire is a very energetic phenomenon, especially with high powered energy weapons and things like railguns. Silent running is fine for smuggling, but anyone firing weapons should be easy to pick up on sensors.

 

[Majinvash]

Hi Majinvash (and other pirates),

I am still a little confused by your stance. I do agree with you on a lot of comments regarding people playing in Open; If you play in Open anything goes, everyone should know that if they frequent these forums (hence our previous disagreement, I understand where you were coming from with a PvP league but Open is Open). If you don't equip yourself properly (both ship wise and experience wise) you will get destroyed/looted/griefed/etc. if you come across the wrong CMDR. Although you can never equip yourself for every eventuality you must admit.

OK, so here is where I don't really get what your stance is; you are part of The Code, a pirate faction trying to make a living by taking cargo from traders, so far so good, it should be a valid career path within ED, but then you say you are also a PKer, a Mobius invader, etc. and you also post what seems to be some baiting comments so now I don't know whether you are just trying to cause friction or you are passionate about your chosen pirate profession and want to make it a viable interaction in the ED world.

Anyway, I have an Anaconda and I really cannot think of much to do with it because I like the smaller ships (how anyone uses it as a battle ship I cannot figure, but thats for another post) so I decided to use it as a tradeconda with pirate/blockade busting abilities just for the fun of it, unfortunately my abilities are a little lacking at present so to tune them up I need some meaningful interaction. It's parked a Cemiess, which is one of your prowling grounds so how about you (and any other pirate out there) prove that this is a valid career choice. I am in open all the time and will do the trade route of Imp slaves into Cemiess on Tuesday to Thursday 8-10pm GMT next week (times may vary slightly depending on RL situations). Just constant backwards and forwards between there and LTT 9810 delivering those expensive goods (which I find quite boring).

I want to find a good load out, you want to pirate. Heres the proposition, I carry the goods, you interdict me (I will try to evade), I will run on fail, you try and stop me. If I get to 25%ish hull I will stop and unload as much cargo as you want (400T it will currently carry, I may change as I reconfigure the load out but not to the point of hull tanking), you let me go. If I manage to escape I promise to re-enter the system (if I HW because I also want to try LW) and drop the demanded cargo for you (if you desire). If you want to PK/grief me that is also fine I have plenty of rebuy's thanks to Robigo but it will get mentioned.

What do you say all you pirates?

Player Killer because some players just need to get killed.
They might run, be too slow, not do exactly what I tell them to do, not communicate and just sit there or I might just be bored of the last few combat loggers and want to actually kill something before it engages its Mobius Drive.
Also because if people know you are happy to kill them, they are more likely to do what they are told next time you grab them.

Infiltrator because lol, it was super fun to pirate people in "safe space". They were very rude about it too and some of the cheated by combat logging.

I am happy to pirate you and if you agree not to instantly high wake, I am happy to smash your ship down to 40% as you try and get away and then let you go after you drop.

If you watch my stream, if I am actually pirating, you will see that 90% of the time, if my target does what its told, its gets asked to rate its crime experience and I let it go.

DMX55, you are referring to pure meta.
When it changes, the PVP players will adapt to the new faster than others.
It wont make any difference to crime and punishment.
The HRP, Silent running meta is broken and boring as hell.
I can tell you that the PVP Community want it balanced, because currently it isn't.
This is why you will see it referred to as a Cancer build.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Tetryl]

Infiltrator because lol, it was super fun to pirate people in "safe space". They were very rude about it too and some of the cheated by combat logging.

So, you derive great pleasure from attacking people in a group specifically made by and for people who do not want to be attacked? Forcing your playstyle on people who want nothing to do with it? Yeah, shining example of human behaviour right there.

You just gave the best possible argument why there should be a PvE Open, and until that exists, why Elite is best played Solo right now. Because there are just too many people who enjoy forcing stuff on others against their will, and damage their enjoyment of the game.

 

[Majinvash]

The term is "emergent content"

Everything I did was working as intended.

No FD rules were broken

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[punkerich]

Well, i'm perfectly fine with pirating in open, but to admit to infiltrate Private Groups is just a no-go.
FDEV stated they WILL be taking actions against it, up to banning ALL accounts of said individual (if i read correctly).
I do understand that you, Majinvash, or even The Code altogether, are taking actions mostly for showing up some
inconsistency or broken mechanisms, at least often it sounds like this.

Invading a private group is like coming uninvited to my house, my b-day party, my whatever,
with the only reason of insulting other guests.
This is how i see it.

 

[mbar]

1) Hull Tanking
- HRPs specifically. If you removed HRPs from the game, suddenly that tank of an FDL suddenly isn't that much of a threat anymore. A multi-purpose ship will have a more even fight on his hands.
Bulkheads can stay. They provide a fixed percentage increase at a mass penalty. But HRPs are the reason why ships can run without shields.... which leads to....

2) Stealth/Silent Running setups.
- Once insane hull tanking is removed, ships will be weaker in general and will have to equip shields and SCBs once again.
While the more confident pilots can run silent for awhile and maybe avoid being shot at, against a good pilot they will eventually take damage and have to raise shields.

IMO SCB could be rolled back to not over heat the ship to insane levels and HRP tanking could both be fixed by simply allowing only ONE of any one of these items. You still get to decide the class size but you only get one of any SCB and HRP. You only get one shield. Why not also limit SCB and HRP to one of each. That would kill the tanking meta and allow everyone to make choices about play styles, and maybe even make the Lakon trade ships a viable choice again.

Limiting SCB and HRP to only one might also help the crime and punishment issue if traders and explorers can fight back.

 

[NeilF]

Open question to all...

I think most people agreed crime, punishment and response needs attention...


So what in your minds should happen - if anything - where Mr Explorer turns up to Sag A, and is promptly interdicted and blown up (clearly for the lolz of causing grief)?

How would any mechanism deal with that, if indeed it even can/should?