PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

If FD created NPC's with godlike abilities that can blast through any player killers shields and kill them in 30 seconds, you have a solution.

Just saw this. So there IS a level at which you'd start taking it seriously.

Thing is, despite what you're trying to put forward, noone is saying we want 100% protection from the big bad pvp-ers. I know your argument depends on misinterpreting it that way but it it just aint so. We're saying we want enough "heat" around civilised areas of space to make you not want to stick around. You've still got to be able to come in and do your thing, we just want you chased off quick enough that you're not too much of a nuisance (not YOU specifically, I mean the generic "you"), and enough consequences afterwards (closed off stations etc) to cause you to consider if the cost is worth the benefit. We're NOT trying to make it impossible for pvp... just suitably difficult in "civilised space".

[edit] and your admission that the police DO chase you off and you "get away easily" is what we're after... just more "away" and more "cost" for doing so than we currently have.

[edit2] To put that another way - we're NOT trying to STOP you. We're trying to make you do it SOMEWHERE ELSE.
 
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The only issue, circuitously, is that if PK can always high wake out: removing it for the goose also removes it for the gander (trader).

So, yes, unless the NPC security got an anti-FSD EMP device that player CMDR could never own it is hard to see a meaningful change.

I suspect part of the "mind perception" around the problem, is that if I as a hypothetical trader get interdicted by you a hypothetical Pirate, then whatever the outcome of the encounter, my feelings may not be an interest in what punishment you get in the future and more a grievance that you prated me in the first place.

Add to that that the general perception (rightly or wrongly) is that CMDR interdiction = blown up. Do I risk RP'ing the encounter and seeing if 20t of Imp Slaves is going to suffice for you to not leave me staring at a rebuy screen with a net loss of 23Mcr?

In terms of "what might improve things", a letter of marque has been mentioned. If you want to be a pirate, sign up at "BadGuyzrUs" or pledge for Delaine or whatever. Somehow, the game could then determine your piracy success rate, in terms of interdictions won vs cargo claimed or victim destroyed. If you keep destroying the traders, the Pirate King gets displeased and sends hunter killers after you, even beyond increasing legal security responses. Wasn't this supposed to happen if you de-pledged in PP (I forget?)

The original game (oh no, not that again) had Clean, Offender and Fugitive legal status. If you were a fugitive you more or less had to stay out bounty hunting until you worked your way back to offender. Until that point I don't think you could dock anywhere that had security presence without them turning on you and a swarm of Vipers back in the day was no joke for a Cobra III.
 
Geoffrey I can often be found around Cemiese where I have a 1 million bounty, if you want to have a crack?
Depends...how is PvP out there during 5-7pm CST? Or is there any legal hack to fast-travel between system already, so I can check quickly whether or not the instance is dead? ;)

I have already been suggested some spots, but if I have to wait 30 minutes for a single player to show up, I prefer to try my chance at the ongoing CGs (some of them like Ch'i Lin have been simply amazing, providing non stop PvP opportunities against combat capable players), Eravate or popular bounty farming spots.
 
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The difference is that with a better police force the Criminal will be always on the run, leaving everyone else to get on with their own game in open.
 
Any fight I was losing, I ran from or high waked out.
Also, if you high wake as soon as your shield drops, I say "boring"!
I decide to high wake only when I realize I have no chance to take down my (or any more) opponent(s), generally around 10-20% hull left.
Makes things more exciting but it costs when my FSD malfunctions for instance :) but it's not like I don't have enough money to cover a few dozens of rebuy.
 
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The difference is that with a better police force the Criminal will be always on the run, leaving everyone else to get on with their own game in open.

Exactly. The point is not to "wipe out crime"... even if it were possible (which it's not) it's not desirable as the universe needs risk. It has to be MANAGEABLE risk however, so the point is to create hi-sec and low-sec areas. Police don't really stop criminals so much as they drive it away.
 

Majinvash

Banned
Just saw this. So there IS a level at which you'd start taking it seriously.

Thing is, despite what you're trying to put forward, noone is saying we want 100% protection from the big bad pvp-ers. I know your argument depends on misinterpreting it that way but it it just aint so. We're saying we want enough "heat" around civilised areas of space to make you not want to stick around. You've still got to be able to come in and do your thing, we just want you chased off quick enough that you're not too much of a nuisance (not YOU specifically, I mean the generic "you"), and enough consequences afterwards (closed off stations etc) to cause you to consider if the cost is worth the benefit. We're NOT trying to make it impossible for pvp... just suitably difficult in "civilised space".

[edit] and your admission that the police DO chase you off and you "get away easily" is what we're after... just more "away" and more "cost" for doing so than we currently have.

*quadruple face palm*

The "Generic Me" is what is scaring the "Generic Trader" from Open because the "Generic Trader" is worried about being just ganked for no reason and doesn't want to be some else's LOL's
If we can assume that "Generic Trader" would return to open if the chance of being ganked was reduced, we have a starting point.
Unless FD create "EVE style Concord" ( Godlike NPC police ), "Generic Me" has nothing to be worried about because high wake or "Braben Freedom Drive" exists and "Generic Me" only has to last 30 seconds between interdiction to escape any threat.
No Threat means no incentive to be selective about where we ply our trade.
Being constantly interdicted by police already happens, sure you could increase that but meh.
If you have to beat "Generic Me" by just making the game more frustrating for anyone with a wanted tag, FD need to close up shop.

dr_evil_austin_powers.jpg


Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
Oh BTW, I forgot to mention that it has been 3-4 months that I have switched to full time PvP, seeking for good fights.
I have killed A LOT of commanders, aat different locations (almost each of the past CGs for instance). The fights last between 30 seconds and 5 minutes.

I have NEVER EVER seen the security vessels show up...
 

Majinvash

Banned
Also, if you high wake as soon as your shield drops, I say "boring"!
I decide to high wake only when I realize I have no chance to take down my (or any more) opponent(s), generally around 10-20% hull left.
Makes things more exciting but it costs when my FSD malfunctions for instance :) but it's not like I don't have enough money to cover a few dozens of rebuy.

I said losing, not shield drop.
I actually become more deadly when my shields drop, which is when I can put more pips to engines and weapons.

I will happily 1v1 you and if you want to do it in a cheaper ship that is no issue

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
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I said losing, not shield drop.
I actually become more deadly when my shields drop, which is when I can put more pips to engines and weapons.

I will happily 1v1 you and if you want to do it in a cheaper ship that is no issue

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
I'm always in for a 1:1. But tell me, you are not a FA off + reverse at full speed FdL, right? I don't fight this kind, it's a waste of time and ammo.
(and if so and you want to discuss about that, send me a PM, no need to bring this thread off topic)

About Cemies, how is PvP out there during 5-7pm CST? Travels are killing me and I have limited playtime. I only hang around spots where I am confident to get constant flow of PvP.

Anyway, feel free to add me, my cmdr name is in my signature :)
 
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Majinvash

Banned
I'm always in for a 1:1. But tell me, you are not a FA off + reverse at full speed FdL, right? I don't fight this kind, it's a waste of time and ammo.

About Cemies, how is PvP out there during 5-7pm CST? Travels are killing me and I have limited playtime. I only hang around spots where I am confident to get constant flow of PvP.

Anyway, feel free to add me, my cmdr name is in my signature :)

I will add you later.

How I fight, will depend on what you are flying, your weapons and how you fight.
I cannot say I will never FA off in reverse but then can you?

Cemiese is a Imperial Slave drop off point, in terms of PVP its hit or miss.
In terms of traders, some nights I will get a stream of Condas and Pythons, other nights a lonely T6 and a few Asps.

You are 5 hrs behind, so might be tricky on a week night. You would need to hop on at about 4-5pm your time.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
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The "Generic Me" is what is scaring the "Generic Trader" from Open because the "Generic Trader" is worried about being just ganked for no reason and doesn't want to be some else's LOL's

Yes. We know. I thought we were looking for new ideas here, not rehashing the basics.

If we can assume that "Generic Trader" would return to open if the chance of being ganked was reduced, we have a starting point.

No, we can't assume that. You DO seem to assume a lot of things. Gank reduction will ONLY bring back players who WANT to be in open but dislike the current ganking. If you want more players than that you'll need a "carrot", some reason to leave solo/group where they're currently quite happy. If we agree to forget about making changes to open like bigger profits or special "open only" events (because FD have categorically ruled that out) the ONLY thing that's left is making open more fun FOR THEM. The ONE thing it has that solo/groups don't is the broad multiplayer base. Make that more appealing and you'll draw more people out. Right now the multiplayer base in open's fairly offensive so it's not surprising they stay away.

Unless FD create "EVE style Concord" ( Godlike NPC police ), "Generic Me" has nothing to be worried about because high wake or "Braben Freedom Drive" exists and "Generic Me" only has to last 30 seconds between interdiction to escape any threat.

Not played Eve (well briefly, I got a free month's play several years ago. It bored me to tears after a few days) however why not? Scale the police response to the threat level. If you're a godlike threat, bring out the godlike space-SWAT teams.


No Threat means no incentive to be selective about where we ply our trade.

So you agree, we need a significant threat in the areas where we want pirate/ganker activity minimised? So if you get a scaled police response to however big it needs to be to drive you away in short order, and suddenly you can't dock at any federation (for example) station in the entire galaxy for a week or enter federation space without a similar police response, and at the end of the day when you finally die the bounty's paid out of your pocket and possibly your insurance either won't cover you, or will cover significantly less of your ship's rebuy... that's not a threat that would make you stop and think? And if you're already suffering that in federation space, would you then go ahead and risk it in empire space at the same time too?


If you have to beat "Generic Me" by just making the game more frustrating for anyone with a wanted tag, FD need to close up shop.

How do you suggest they "beat you" without actually having systems that can beat you? Besides you're still labouring under the illusion that we want you dead & gone. No, we want you chased away in fairly short order. It doesn't have to be fatal, in fact it can be more inconvenient for you if you're NOT killed. We just don't want you to have free reign to hang around causing devastation all day long and want you to have some significant wounds to lick after you're chased off.
 
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Y
You are only fortunate that the NPC's are so comically terrible that you think PVP is such a threat.

Zzz. Boring. Once again it comes down to the tedious accusation that we're just 'hiding' from PvP. I don't know whether it is or not. The reason that I don't know is because I don't care. If I had to guess, I reckon that a seasoned PvP player would destroy me in a straight fight. I don't care to find out, because I'm not interested.

I just prefer playing Co-op and Solo in combat. I'm not particularly competetive and I'm -really- not interested in optimising my build for PvP. That, to me, is dull in comparison with flying with modules I enjoy using.

That doesn't mean that me and my co-op chums don't ever get into trouble. I've had things get very hairy in a very short space of time in a RES, especially when going after targets significantly tougher than my own or in wings. I usually make it out but I'd bugged out of a RES 3 times in the past week with a cracked canopy. I'm fine with how this is working in terms of challenge. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes much less so. Sometimes I push my luck, and sometimes that pays off. I enjoy that.

When not collecting bounties, I'm off somewhere nowhere near anyone else, where if I were in open I'd be very unlikely to encounter anyone. There's no particular reason for me not to be in open for this, but no particular reason FOR it either.

Again, the question isn't why am I not in open. It's why would I WANT to be, when right now the game is giving me what I want in private groups (and my only vague wish is that they'd just make PvE groups officially the thing that they've been unofficially for ages)
 
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The only way to stop player killers is to have other player killers stop them. There are plenty of teams out there who want to play the good guys.
All the time there is ZERO risk to a player killer, all the fines and slight inconvenience with docking wont make a shred of difference.
...

Hmmm..... I disagree; the level of inconvenience that you experience is really something that FDev would determine. If you can only dock in anarchy systems, or anarchy systems you have a reputation with, or anarchy systems that are at least 100 ly away from the PK system, or.... then these systems could be far apart. After going to your busy spot to do some PKing you may have to fuel scoop back for 10 minutes to stock up or repair. Your effectiveness, i.e. kills per hours, surely goes down.

Same with fines. If you instantly paid 1%, 2%, 4%, 8%, etc of your assets (all ships, all cash) for each repeated murder (you have a bounty rewarded straight away, so why not deduct a fine) then you'll be out of cash soon if you keep going, no matter how many credits you have. If there is not enough cash, you can't dock anywhere anymore, ships may be confiscated, whatever. Not going into details here. But you can see that it will also drastically decrease your effectiveness as a PKer.

This is not an argument against PVP; that's the best part of ED as far as I am concerned. For the sake of a more varied and lively Open universe I would welcome balancing crime and punishment to the level where murder indeed becomes fairly rare though. At the same time I'm hoping that this is counter balanced by more game-sanctioned PVP opportunities (PVP mission, PVP faction wars, etc).
 
(Apologies for the late and possibly terse answers to these; I was in work all day with nothing but an iPad. Great for reading the forums, but a nightmare for typing long replies. These had to wait until I got home).

Speed fines work in general although there are some exploits, true. Further, if fines were calculated as an increasing percentage of assets (double the percentage with each new offence, hefty minimum fine) then it becomes unsustainable very quickly because potential rewards from grind do not equally grow exponentially.

That's been suggested before by myself and others; any values that quantify punishable actions should rise exponentially but fall linearly, the idea being that one-off errors of judgement are relatively simple to recover from while recidivism is heavily penalised. This would work for financial penalties (although exploits that punished the innocent would have to be closely watched for) as well as for more indirect effects such as the likelihood of a station refusing docking permission, or of NPC authority ships hunting the criminal.

The main problem with the math here is that there are no mechanisms to hang it on to test it. Until FD implement something, anything remotely close to a serious attempt at in-game punishment, it's all academic. And sadly leads to the sort of circular threads that this one has rapidly morphed into.

There was a good reason though, he was trying to fly supplies in to a CG, that's why a wing of 4 was there, blockading the CG.
OK, I'll give you that. In an ideal world I'd say it should be even more granular, and that some CGs (e.g. arms smuggling in the build-up to a civil war) should attract violent opposition from both NPC and PC pilots, while others (e.g. famine relief) shouldn't. Unless there's a political reason behind the famine, of course, rather than a natural disaster on an otherwise peaceful world.

Alas the background simulation doesn't support that level of geopolitics yet, which means all CG opposition basically boils down to "I don't like that people are doing a CG, I'm going to stop them," even much of the stuff that's supposedly RPed.

But in this case, in the current build, you're right. The poster I referenced was somewhat naive entering into any CG in Open play.

I would fully expect wings of gunships run by NPCs at a CG, same as I fully expect the players to show up that way, and FD should be tossing them in the mix for the CGs.

Back in the DDF I actually suggested on more than one occasion that the game should keep tabs on which systems had high levels of player piracy in Open, and spawn similar numbers of NPC pirates in Solo and Group modes so the playing field was level.

Of course that opinion, which was contentious even back then, was based on an idealised vision of the game as outlined in the ongoing DDF proposals by FD developers and in the various conference speeches given by David Braben. Having seen how the mode balancing has actually turned out, thanks in no small part to the chronic lack of an NPC authority presence, I don't think the game is remotely close to being ready for that sort of mechanism.

Maybe way down the line, when the rest of it is balanced. I still like the idea of NPCs mirroring PCs, so that player activity in any mode (be it pirate, trader, or bounty hunter) would be mirrored in all modes by NPCs "making up the numbers."

But I fear the game may never be balanced enough to allow for that. :(

Well I guess Frontier made a rod for their own back when they made the NPC's so weak, now a lot of PvE'ers expect them to stay that way. I personally prefer a challenge over NPC 'whack-a-mole', but each to their own I guess.

IMHO Frontier should make the AI of NPC's 25%-50% smarter in solo & group mode to balance the drop in challenge, why should any mode be easier than any other? Mode selection should be purely about the level of social interaction you want - not the level of challenge you want.

See above. Not all that long ago I was in love with the idea that the challenge would be equal across all modes, to the point where NPC activity in Solo and Group should mirror player activity in Open. But without meaningful differences in security levels, and without equally balanced authority response, it would be a disaster.

That's the context I had in mind when I said I'd quit. If I logged into the game and couldn't jump anywhere without the threat of instant destruction (or a series of inconvenient high-wake escapes) because FD had seen fit to spawn wings of FAS tanks against anything that moved, in the absence of any other balancing changes, then I'd leave.

Not because I don't relish a challenge, but because a random die roll for instant death (or doing the high-wake boogie twenty times a night) isn't my idea of enjoyment. For many players other than hardcore PvPers, that's basically what Open play has turned into. If the other modes went the same way thanks to OP NPCs, I'd be gone from the bubble. I might still do long-range exploration to chill, but that would be all.
 
.... never forgetting that the game needs to be playable in Solo. Maybe when NPC Wing members are introduced then Wings of gunships at CGs could work out.

Excuse me, what? I've been interdicted by many wings of NPCs and I'm pretty much always flying by myself, I've only grouped up for Truckers vs Code or when doing system defense. You seem to be saying that Solo should have training wheels on it, no one should face more than a single NPC at a time, and that's total , wings of NPCs interdict players all the time, it should be far more prevalent at CGs however due to their very nature.
 
I am a Mobius player. I haven't been in open play because of griefers/gankers/whatever-you-want-to-call-them. Murder of a player probably should carry a much higher bounty, like in the 6 digit range(or even higher), with the current cooldown and have it only come off once a player has claimed the bounty. This way, actual pirates can still do their thing. Actual player pirates never want to destroy a ship, can't get cargo. This means that griefers(and those few psycho pirates who kill after getting cargo) will be hit by this change. Maybe killing someone who isn't wanted in a newbie system should put a massive bounty, like 1M and greater, and have it persist until a player has claimed it. Newbies should have recourse. Nothing is worse than getting started in a game like this and getting wiped out over and over again by griefers. It is a common complaint in EVE, to the point that the reviews on Steam are now mostly negative. And this system lets the players police this a bit, anyone with a KWS can pick up on the murderers and be able to cash in big.
 

dxm55

Banned
Just take from RL.

Police Response
- Bounty/Fine amount for murder should be increased
- NPC Police response should scale according to system security, or at least, proximity to core worlds

Wanted Status
- Serious Wanted status (like murder) should apply to entire faction especially for Fed and Empire. Perhaps Alliance worlds be lesser linked.
- Wanted status should stack with every murder, and remain persistent despite player death/destruction (ie. run its full duration)

Access to ports and services
- Access to major starports (Coriolis, Ocellus) and planetary bases on affected faction denied for those Wanted for Murder.
- Only minor outposts in low tech or backwater systems will permit docking. This will limit the Wanted's options, but not outright make it impossible to survive.
- Insurance rebuy should be denied to anyone with an active Wanted (for murder) status. Rebuys will be restored once status is cleared.



Boost piracy:
- Remove "stolen" tag for all dropped canisters, thereby allowing them to be sold on open market.
- Or, at least allow an option or a way to "hack" the stolen canisters, or maybe even pay for "new" canisters, thereby turning the loot into legal cargo.
This will work to promote piracy as an option, over mindless murder
 
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Insurance rebuy should be denied to anyone with an active Wanted (for murder) status. Rebuys will be restored once status is cleared.
This would indeed turn the game into a place so safe that it would become boring.
Did you really think more than a minute of what you wrote?
Like a pirate, who already earns peanuts from his activity, would lose over 100 millions upon destruction of his Python.
And if you think that, wit the current tools available for piracy, you can be pirate without killing...well, try it yourself and you will see.

Sorry man but your list of suggestions has lost all credibility with that one. What next? Banish players who commit too many murders? Mail them real fines to be cleared out via Paypal..?
 
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