PvP (Open) commanders not welcome on this forum?...

[CMDR Ofan]

I'm hardly representative of the PvP community, more like a player who's done everything this game has to offer ten times over and is unhappy with the prevailing attitude towards PvPers in general, and as to my sizable rep....well, that was mostly from back during my early days when I didn't know much and thought posts fawning over Mobius were cool

The attitude towards PVP at the moment is a strange beast. Oft heard is the cry of "it's my game! I paid for it, I want the way I play it to be preserved from the wants of others" from those who carry the pve torch......and yet they don't apply that same logic to those who pvp, or even those who play in open in general. Instead threads tend to descend into a circle-jerk of titanic, foamy, wall splattering proportions where all kinds of back slapping and caricaturing of players happens, which then of course is next extended to everyone who does not play in mob/solo and before you know it the largest group in this game (open) is being told somehow that they are a minority and called a ganker or that they have no right to exist as and where they do.

It's all gone well beyond the point of tribalistic debate and people are being angry now just because they feel it aligns with their 'camp' or rather that the oppositon does not.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Well that's a pretty naive conclusion to make if the depth of your research is one thread and a Discord interaction. To assume you have correctly mapped PvPers very DNA is wishful thinking at best if that's the extent of your research and examination on the matter.

A whole heap of separate conclusions could have been drawn from that thread depending on what you bring with you. You drew 2 conclusions, I offered 2 more conclusions, other people could draw yet more conclusions based on their own interpretations. That's not really a definitive piece of research there from which to draw any significantly meaningful and accurate conclusions now is it?

How many people that voted in that poll were PvP players?
How many were PvE players?

You didn't expressly ask for PvPers only to vote and comment so how can you come to the conclusion that PvPers are actively self-segregating from just that? By my reading through that thread it seemed quite a few PvEers were also wary of creating a seperate PvP subforum, why would that be?

You didn't cross examine the other things that were brought to the table such as the history of why PvPers feel that a mass exodus from the official forums was an action they felt they eventually needed to take or why PvPers feel a lack of representation in the moderation of this forum. What empirical evidence is there to either support or deny the claims of harsher treatment from the moderators towards PvP-centric posters for example?

Is there a causality factor to the feeling of persecution coming from PvPers on here? Was it indeed a snowball effect that gradually eroded the goodwill between PvPers and this forum or is it driven by the continued feeding of a myth on the PvPers end? What was it like to be a PvPer when the game was still in Beta or just newly released? What were the feelings and attitudes on the forum then compared to how they are now? And why?

These are the things you need to ask and provide an answer to in order to back up an assertion as concrete sounding as 'It's in their DNA to be anti-establishment'.

I can for example immediately disprove your theory that PvPers are actively seeking to self-segregate themselves from this forum by posting a link to this thread here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/323245-PvP-Players-I’d-like-to-talk-PvP-with-you

Fair points all, and well put forth. A good read.

 

[askavir]

Oft heard is the cry of "it's my game! I paid for it, I want the way I play it to be preserved from the wants of others" from those who carry the pve torch..

And isn't that exactly what the ones carrying the PvP banner also say to explain why they go out of their way to annoy other players, specially those who couldn't possibly fight back because they are doing other things in the game, at CGs/alien sites, etc etc? "It's my game, I want to play it like I want, regardless of the wants of others".

 

[xondk]

The attitude towards PVP at the moment is a strange beast. Oft heard is the cry of "it's my game! I paid for it, I want the way I play it to be preserved from the wants of others" from those who carry the pve torch......and yet they don't apply that same logic to those who pvp, or even those who play in open in general. Instead threads tend to descend into a circle-jerk of titanic, foamy, wall splattering proportions where all kinds of back slapping and caricaturing of players happens, which then of course is next extended to everyone who does not play in mob/solo and before you know it the largest group in this game (open) is being told somehow that they are a minority and called a ganker or that they have no right to exist as and where they do.

It's all gone well beyond the point of tribalistic debate and people are being angry now just because they feel it aligns with their 'camp' or rather that the oppositon does not.

Well I think comparing it directly, isn't something you can do, because there are fundamental difference.
PvE - Does not need other players, they are a plus and you can work together with them and whatnot, but they aren't needed.
PvP - Needs other players, end of story.

But really 'most' people in my book aren't fully in either group, like myself I enjoy both aspects, what I find boring about games, is when I see tons of video's of people jumping others and then bragging left and right about it, congratulations you destroyed virtual pixels of a person that at best didn't fight back? yet said people are insanely proud about that.
I really don't see a problem with people that want actual PvP, they can set up places and whatnot where they do their fighting rather easily, there is more then enough places for them to do so, but seemingly that isn't what some want? they don't want pvp, which in my book is about the challenge of fighting others, instead they seem to want to just blow people up? for.....some reason? take PvP piracy, most say its "more challenging" more exciting e.t.c. But me? I fail to see it, because PvP piracy usually consists of interdicting a ship that doesn't stand a chance against you, demanding cargo, and blowing them up.
Seems to be significantly less challenging then having to fight for the cargo disable ship and use hatch breakers like you need with npc's, which in my eyes can make people that keep saying how great pvp piracy is versus pve piracy, come off as instant gratification seeking at the best of it, they don't want a challenge, they want the feeling of being 'good' at something regardless of truth or not, and a lot of games have this similar, heck even outside the gaming culture it seems 'feeling' important/great/whatnot is becoming more important then actual facts? or actually being great?

 

[Fracktal]

The attitude towards PVP at the moment is a strange beast. Oft heard is the cry of "it's my game! I paid for it, I want the way I play it to be preserved from the wants of others" from those who carry the pve torch......and yet they don't apply that same logic to those who pvp, or even those who play in open in general.

To be fair, they are people within the PVP community who have been (and many are still) vocal about having SOLO and PG modes removed since Elite Dangerous was released.

So there is no innocent party here.

 

[CMDR Ofan]

To be fair, they are people within the PVP community who have been (and many are still) vocal about having SOLO and PG modes removed since Elite Dangerous was released.

So there is no innocent party here.

I did not suggest any were innocent, what I was saying is that it's strange that those who argue so loudly for their rights don't extend that courtesy to others, just take a look back over the last few weeks of threads the amount that end up in "PVP/open is bad full of bad people who make me not want to play" far outweigh the (if any) "Open and solo are destorying the game and make me not want to play" threads.

I'm sure there are people on both sides saying the other are at fault but the core of the PVE argument is that any other play style infringes their rights and they must be preserved, or else *insert hyperbole here* "game will die" etc.

I personally find it odd that they can't for a moment accept that the same defence applies to the oppositon is all

Edit: And yes I'm prepared to apply that to insane PVP only nuts who say the same kind of thing i.e. their rights blah blah.

 

[Fracktal]

I'm sure there are people on both sides saying the other are at fault but the core of the PVE argument is that any other play style infringes their rights and they must be preserved, or else *insert hyperbole here* "game will die" etc.

That's why I used this as an example to point the attitude you described is existing at the other side of the coin.
And it came directly in my mind after reading just today 3 posts proposing the removal of PG and Solo in order to make the game "better".

I didn't imply that you were exonerating the other group. I just wanted to point out that the Feud is a Montague-Capulet story which started since the game launched.

"PVP/open is bad full of bad people who make me not want to play" far outweigh the (if any) "Open and solo are destorying the game and make me not want to play" threads.

You are right, considering only those two topics, we would expect 70% of threads with the first subject, while 30% aimed at the SOLO/PG. It would just reflect the forum population sensibilities.

 

[CMDR Ofan]

That's why I used this as an example to point the attitude you described is existing at the other side of the coin.
And it came directly in my mind after reading just today 3 posts proposing the removal of PG and Solo in order to make the game "better".

I didn't imply that you were exonerating the other group. I just wanted to point out that the Feud is a Montague-Capulet story which started since the game launched.



You are right, considering only those two topics we would expect 70% of threads with the first subject, while 30% aimed at the SOLO/PG. It would just reflect the forum population sensibilities.

I agree with you, but the numbers don't really add any substance to either sides argument - unless we are going to slip down that well of 'we have more rights than you because we outnumber you' which frankly I don't want anything to do with.

People buy the game on an individaul basis not as part of a group, when most (barring the outliers) people buy the game they are thinking of themselves and buy in at that level. If that's the case -which I hope we can agree on- then their requests should all remain couched in the language of the individual because this game did not come with a disclaimer on it when I backed it saying my opinion, views and right to play as I choose are entirely dependant on how many people agree with me.

The reason I mentioned the threads was not to look at the numbers because to me (see above) that's a non-consideration and at best tertiary to my point; it's to examine the rhetoric, purported stance and interplay of two (extremes) of argument(s).

Edit: To me the forum sensibilites are irrelevant, because it's a hotbed of tribal overt prestige and hyperbole.

 

[Fracktal]

Edit: To me the forum sensibilities are irrelevant, because it's a hotbed of tribal overt prestige and hyperbole.

It should be irrelevant. But sadly both sides seem eager to put the person they do not agree with in "the stereotype box" which fit their view.

That's convenient and reassuring to label the others the "bad ones" and play the victim card.

 

[Goose4291]

I fail to see it, because PvP piracy usually consists of interdicting a ship that doesn't stand a chance against you, demanding cargo, and blowing them up if they refuse to comply

Fixed that for you. Proper pirates won't kill their compliant prey, otherwise they're probably going to be less agreeable to your demands the next time.

It also has to do with the fact that player piracy (in relatice terms) is profitable, whereas NPC most certainly isn't due to their obsession with hauling low value goods.

 

[Shackram]

Your post is kinda confusing in my book, to me it seems like you are saying.

"I am going to go into your house, and not follow any of the rules in your house on how to treat people, and I'm also going to make use of 'my' right to say exactly what I want and think about how you do things that I do not agree with."
or maybe a better analogy is a concert, paying to enter, but deciding to not follow their rules, and treat people however you want, say what you want.

So yeah, while I know this is not the way many online think.
By default, you may not 'owe' anyone respect, but you can act respectful, show respect, and generally respect is shown in return. Show disrespect and funny enough, disrespect is showed in return. This is very very normal behaviour, and it is also part of respect is earned line as you say it, I mean what reason do people, or the devs or forum mods have to respect you, when you if you don't follow the rules set on forum and their other places?
They don't owe you respect either simply because you purchased their product, you purchased their product because you wanted the product, it doesn't mean they owe you anything in return.

This is funny to me.

On the reddit thread about this thread, i was talking to another redditor about the illogical behaviour of certain players in game and in the forum/reddit, then this SDC guy comes here and makes a perfect example of what i was talking about, while my overal point was close to the one you're making here.

 

[Riverside]

This is funny to me.

On the reddit thread about this thread, i was talking to another redditor about the illogical behaviour of certain players in game and in the forum/reddit, then this SDC guy comes here and makes a perfect example of what i was talking about, while my overal point was close to the one you're making here.

That's a recurring point in this thread. Depends on where you go in space I suppose, and where you decide is the place you don't want others to go.

If you choose a popular system (or CG) with lots of resources or opportunity you have to assume plenty of others will too, and there will be conflict. Choose somewhere a little quieter & you will have an easier life.

The system I call home is also the home base of a few PvP cmdrs. I've met them, get along well with them, and I get to test my 'running away' loadouts while they get to test their 'catch the runner' loadouts. There is a bit of friendly banter & I will help them if I can, and I'm sure that if I were to ask, they would help me too.

Perhaps the difference is that I don't act like a jerk about how they play the game & neither do they about how I play mine.

I don't see PvPers & PvEers, I see (a lot of) friendly folk, and (a few) jerks. Try not to be a jerk, however you play the game.

 

[Riverside]

Okay here's something:

You are in a system with another Cmdr.
You don't want them to be there.
You have a choice. Stand your ground or leave.
If you stand your ground, inevitably conflict will ensue.
If you leave & let them continue about their business, the other guy 'wins' and you feel frustrated.

Make the other Cmdrs your content. You know how you are going to behave, but they don't know how you will respond. In an open environment, other players are your content, but you are their content too. Give them a reason to want to play with you, and try to not be a jerk.

To those that just want to be the jerk for attention, git gud at playing with others, and you will enjoy yourself more.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

this SDC guy

Reddit user /u/TheCodePR

hmmmmm

 

[Morbad]

Reddit user /u/TheCodePR

All you purple people look the same to some.

 

[Gunnet]

Reddit user /u/TheCodePR

hmmmmm

Pretty sure that was in reference to Sole Hunter's rant earlier in this thread.

 

[DukeIronHand]

Why is this, now useless, thread still ongoing?
Why the controversy? The debate? The angst?

If you want to PvP or have a chance for an unwanted Cmdr contact play in Open.
If you don't want to PvP or have unwanted Cmdr contact play Solo, PG, or maybe(?) PvE mode.
Do I need to type that 6 more times?

Seems all pretty simple to me. Yet these threads keep happening.
Who is forcing the issue? For what agenda? And why?

 

[Goose4291]

Why is this, now useless, thread still ongoing?
Why the controversy? The debate? The angst?

If you want to PvP or have a chance for an unwanted Cmdr contact play in Open.
If you don't want to PvP or have unwanted Cmdr contact play Solo, PG, or maybe(?) PvE mode.
Do I need to type that 6 more times?

Seems all pretty simple to me. Yet these threads keep happening.
Who is forcing the issue? For what agenda? And why?

Because that's not the topic of the thread.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Because that's not the topic of the thread.

The topic of the thread is the sharing of a PvP tournament, wrapped in a click bait title based on comments made by some random Discord users.

<wipes brow>

That about it ?

 

[DukeIronHand]

Because that's not the topic of the thread.

Really? You think that eh?