PvP pve in open idea

[Navigare Necesse Est]

In my opinion the best way to deal with it would be to stop making PvP-PvE contact so one sided. If you want to mine then you want to mine as efficiently as possible. In Open though, you need to compromise to account for hostile CMDRs. But compromises affect efficiency, and you're also not going to beat someone at PvP in a hybrid ship, you're only really looking to escape, not dish damage back. So then someone being practical about it looks at it like this "I can either do my stuff efficiently, without worry about other players, and play in PG/solo, or i make a compromise in my loadout, for less efficiency, play in open, with a chance that i'll get attacked, and if attacked, i might escape or i might lose hours of effort to someone who is risking nothing".

That last part is one of the most interesting as well. The attacker really risks nothing. If they really mess up, they might lose their ship (for example, they are so focused on their target they don't notice another player coming up behind them).

One sided PvP, both in terms of balance and risk, for most people is not interesting. Who is interested in this sort of PvP? Griefers, gankers, and people who suck at PvP against decent opponents but want to kill people to stroke their egos.

Therefore, in my opinion, the only way to address this is to do balancing which results in the ability of ships to be just as dangerous when doing PvP as they are when doing PvP without impacting their efficiency doing those activities. That would add balance to the situation and provide risk to the attacker.

Unfortunately, i don't think this is possible to do in ED, at least not without making such changes it probably wouldn't please anyone.

Its quite similar in GTA. You get a mission to deliver stuff in a postal van (for example), which is of course unarmed and slow... it literally crawls going up hills. The game alerts everyone in the lobby you are doing this. Death means you lose it all. All around the lobby are usually people flying broomsticks (Opressor Mk2, a flying bike, fast, agile, has countermeasures, fires homing missiles) just looking for people to kill. In most public lobbies you won't stand a chance of making a delivery unless all the "PvPers" are busy. But if one takes notice, you're dead. You're on a time limit, you can't mess around, those post-op vans are slow. Getting out of your van to fight back leaves it vulnerable to attack, if the van is destroyed, mission over.

Of course, you know what the attackers say? Things like Git Gud and The game allows it and don't play in public lobbies then! (those missions can only be done in public lobbies, its like the idea that open only proponents like to push).

What do a lot of people do, included those self-styled PvPers? They force solo public lobbies, through firewall hijinks, "testing NAT type", or suspending process, all of which push you into a solo public lobby as the game thinks you are lagging out and doesn't want you to affect other players (by the way, GTA also uses P2P networking). Another method people use is make groups where they ensure the whole lobby is filled with friendlies, others who are grinding, so griefers/gankers are less likely to get in.

So, anyone who seriously wants money, and not the risk or challenge, simply ensures they don't get matched with those looking for PvP. Result, public lobbies are generally full of people flying around on broomsticks killing each other. Its just crazy. I logged in yesterday and before i finished loading i got a message that my personal vehicle had been destroyed. That's how crazy it is as time.

In short, you can't have a mix of PvE and PvP play going on and being fun for all unless everyone is on equal terms with equal risk for all (of course, skill should still be a factor, the only real significant factor).

Exactly, it's a design problem.

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

If the pvp is consensual I'm all good, I like pvp. I'm just not a fan of pushing people who don't want to pvp into a situation where they have to.

Ah, ok, I think we're on the same page. My idea is just for expanding CQC, giving it more incentive and bringing it into the main game instead of it being its own separate thing. Obviously if you're queuing for it, you're consenting to PvP. But I agree that introducing an incentive that would force people into PvP situations would be wrong. Everything, to a certain extent, should be opt in.

 

[Vasquess]

…

Imagine an open where pilots cannot attack players with a lower rank. Namely an elite combat pilot can't gank a noob.

…
Systems have a security rating. What if a “secure” system would be secure, i.e. any pilot – also noobs – could be 99.999% sure not to be attacked if they themselves are nice people. Then you as a player would be in control simply by planning where you go.

 

[Ethaidan]

I can see what you are trying to do there, and I appreciate you trying to put some creative thinking into it, and while that might have worked up until the engineers were introduced, now the engineering genie is out of the bottle and stronger than before, that's not going to work because of the massive disparity between a PvP ship and a PvE loadout.

Picture this you're doing cargo runs in a Python with 4x G5 resist modded boosters and a 5c Biweave shield genny with G5 thermal resist, lightweight military composites (kind of jack of all trades armour) like this one: https://s.orbis.zone/7grq - and you get interdicted by a meta de lance like this one: https://s.orbis.zone/7grr - Coriolis reckons the shields would last for 8 seconds the hull for 3 seconds - 11seconds time to kill for the Meta De Lance mince your python.

But being a capable pilot you are willing to "have a go", and as such your python has massive DPS frags, and a massive agility disadvantage against a meta de lance that is compounded by your 200+ cargo, but you still give it a go... According to Coriolis the Meta De Lance shields last four times as long as the pythons would, 32 seconds. But the hull / Armour - ouch - it has so many HP it can withstand one minute forty nine seconds of your sustained max DPS - 36 times as long as your hull will hold out if your opponent gets all guns trained on you.

FDL --> Python TTK = 011 seconds sustained fire
Python --> FDL TTK = 151 seconds sustained fire

Given such insurmountable odds, why even bother?

Seriously, this is two threads you've pushed this in. Please click on the Python (your link) and have a good long look. It has near no engineering - and completely undermines any point you're trying to make. A fully engineered FdL vs a rubbish Python with bi-weaves, unengineered shield boosters, unengineered hull, and what armoured trader uses the 1, 2 and 3 slots for cargo on a Python. Try these simple changes then get back to us with your numbers:
Reactive Plate: G5 HD, Deep Plating
Size 5 Prismatics: G5 Thermal, Hi-Cap
3x Shield Boosters: G5 Resistances, SuperCap
1x Shield Booster: G5 HD, SuperCap
Size 1 HRP: G5 Thermal, Deep Plating
Size 2 HRP: G5 HD, Deep Plating
2x Size 3 Guardian SB

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Introducing any bonus for playing in Open would very likely lead to block lists getting much longer....

.... and I doubt that introducing a rank for PKing would encourage the less PvP inclined player to play in Open at all.

Then there's the fact that Powerplay is the only feature that has been considered suitable for either Open only or an Open play bonus.

Additionally, you can just set up shop somewhere not popular and reap the open only bonus without any extra risk.

The extra risk from open is situational and depends on many factors, including platform, latency, and more.

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't just be block lists that people would use if an open only bonus came in. I'm sure people would be tweaking their MTUs or firewalls to ensure they don't get matchmaked with others.

 

[Stelar 7]

While an open bonus for PP would almost certainly produce work arrounds, resentment and shenagins, a combat addition might just be a fun extra for interested people. Add a CQC mode for PP points and a scheduling system so teams could form and meet at a specific time and have no awards for it unless the event happens and then all the PVP oriented PP users would have a way to get both.

I'm not sure that demographic is big enough to draw dev dollars though. Maybe they can get a kickstarter for it togeather.

 

[CNC drill press]

Spear fly with known cheaters, use unfair tactics and high wake from fights after only losing a ring off their shields. Other than the cheating I have no problem with them using unfair, in-game tactics but I'm not gonna fight them if they want to play that way.

Cheaters... rrright. So why dont u just block them and pew pew with others in Spear who doesnt use cheats? As for high waking - thats part of game - why dont u bring scanner with you? Then again - just remember name or block them and pew pew rest.

View attachment 178734

That's the traffic report from today, it's usually on the low side too. How many of them have opened a threat on being ganked today in Deciat? Do you have a higher chance to get shot at there then in other systems, yes of course but to the same time you also have a high chance to not encounter anybody at all. Or the majority of people playing in open don't really care about being shot at.

Clicking on open is giving consent, it's that simple.

I never camped deciat but I guess someone here had. Have you? Have you encountered OVER 9000 players in SC?
Surely not because instancing. How many then? 30? 10? 5? 9120/24 = 380 every hour.
Lets divide globe by 6 parts (6/8 cause if u look on the globe its like quarter being pacific ocean) we get 63 players per hour that are on the same land (more or less) so in theory they should end up in same instance as you.
Ofcs that is a lot of assumptions but number of players visible in deicat in SC doesnt come anywhere we would expect. Surely, as I said saw once or twice swarm of ppl in SC, numbers form inara suggest it should be full all the time.
Ofc point being (in case anyone miss it) - open isnt as popular as gankers say it is.

[...]
Artificial restrictions in either way are not the right thing to do.

Do you say it because that would limit number of your targets or u believe that would affect pve players experience as well? If latter then explain how.

Systems have a security rating. What if a “secure” system would be secure, i.e. any pilot – also noobs – could be 99.999% sure not to be attacked if they themselves are nice people. Then you as a player would be in control simply by planning where you go.

Was already proposed in this thread, someone said "big fat not for artificial restrictions (overpowered police forces being "artificial restrictions" buahahah)

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

Cheaters... rrright. So why dont u just block them and pew pew with others in Spear who doesnt use cheats? As for high waking - thats part of game - why dont u bring scanner with you? Then again - just remember name or block them and pew pew rest.


I never camped deciat but I guess someone here had. Have you? Have you encountered OVER 9000 players in SC?
Surely not because instancing. How many then? 30? 10? 5? 9120/24 = 380 every hour.
Lets divide globe by 6 parts (6/8 cause if u look on the globe its like quarter being pacific ocean) we get 63 players per hour that are on the same land (more or less) so in theory they should end up in same instance as you.
Ofcs that is a lot of assumptions but number of players visible in deicat in SC doesnt come anywhere we would expect. Surely, as I said saw once or twice swarm of ppl in SC, numbers form inara suggest it should be full all the time.
Ofc point being (in case anyone miss it) - open isnt as popular as gankers say it is.



Do you say it because that would limit number of your targets or u believe that would affect pve players experience as well? If latter then explain how.


Was already proposed in this thread, someone said "big fat not for artificial restrictions (overpowered police forces being "artificial restrictions" buahahah)

I don't block players. Like I said, I have no problem with them high waking, I just take it as a win, but its just no fun to fight against them. They offer nothing besides a minor annoyance. In my original post I said its unfortunate that they're really the only "lawful" squadron left because they're no fun to fight against. If they quit using premium ammo, quit doing whatever they do to screw up instancing, quit flying with known cheaters and actually fought to the death, I'd be happy to fight with them. Back when I played on xbox, the lawfuls were genuinely fun to fight with. It's unfortunate that PC isn't the same.

 

[Just Paul]

I never camped deciat but I guess someone here had. Have you? Have you encountered OVER 9000 players in SC?
Surely not because instancing. How many then? 30? 10? 5? 9120/24 = 380 every hour.
Lets divide globe by 6 parts (6/8 cause if u look on the globe its like quarter being pacific ocean) we get 63 players per hour that are on the same land (more or less) so in theory they should end up in same instance as you.
Ofcs that is a lot of assumptions but number of players visible in deicat in SC doesnt come anywhere we would expect. Surely, as I said saw once or twice swarm of ppl in SC, numbers form inara suggest it should be full all the time.
Ofc point being (in case anyone miss it) - open isnt as popular as gankers say it is.

It's instancing, I can sometimes not even instance with my own squadron or wing mates in a system there it's only us. It takes a relog or 2 to instance. If you have an instance with a few people already it gets even harder to get into the same instance.
I'm now based in Colonia and even at the time I play, which is ghost hours, I met people every time. From explorers, holiday makers, call of the wild followers, engineer unlockers, residents, gankers, and "noobs" all in open. Sometimes we try to shoot each other, or work together, or normal o7 and some small talk, or just a stern look without saying anything, that is what makes open fun. FDEv said that open is the most popular mode, but with the games size, time zones, and instancing meeting other players outside of hot spots is not a given.

Do you say it because that would limit number of your targets or u believe that would affect pve players experience as well? If latter then explain how.

It would effect everyone, just look at the C&P, it mainly effect's people who play the bgs and people who rarely interact with it. Lets say you put an PvP flag or some other similar thing, now bgs stuff becomes even more of an bucket filling exercise than before. Right now PvP can have an impact on your level of bucket filling and at least for us and our last 2 "enemies" it is a welcome distraction to have a few fights in between bucket filling. With system chat and the carriers now you can interact with people in different instances, modes, and platforms.
Open should stay as it is, free for all. I'm not advocating for removing or restricting the other modes either. If the OPs proposal would be implemented the number of people I organically can interact with will be limited only because my main activities are bgs related and I'm Triple Elite because of it. Now I can't go fight anymore much more experienced PvPs as many have a lower combat rank than me.

 

[StewartScott]

Unexpected encounters are part of the beauty of ELITE for me. I had a great time in PVP last night...

I like Open. If I get destroyed, well then that’s my own stupid fault... Situational awareness and whatever skills I can throw to escape is an absolute adrenaline rush!

o7

 

[StewartScott]

Unexpected encounters are part of the beauty of ELITE for me. I had a great time in PVP last night...

I like Open. If I get destroyed, well then that’s my own stupid fault... Situational awareness and whatever skills I can throw to escape is an absolute adrenaline rush!

o7

^^^^ THIS ^^^^

 

[CMNDRMK]

I hear you. Ain't real is it. So I guess we will have 700 pvpers in open with idk say a few thousand explorers way out yonder and a few noobs not knowing any better.
The rest of us are in solo etc

Ill guess we will have a complete strawman.

 

[CNC drill press]

They offer nothing besides a minor annoyance. In my original post I said its unfortunate that they're really the only "lawful" squadron left because they're no fun to fight against.

Just like gankers claiming they "provide content" and are "essential to game" - they offer annoyance and are not fun to play with. Its amazing that u prefer fight newbies instead trying to outsmart "these ugly spear noobs"

If they quit using premium ammo, quit doing whatever they do to screw up instancing, quit flying with known cheaters and actually fought to the death, I'd be happy to fight with them.

Also they need to stop shooting back.
I heard they cause plagues and earthquakes too (that remark "quit doing whatever they do to screw up instancing" won internets)

I just cant >.< Alll that excuses to justify why fighting newbs and random ppl rather than spear are amazing. Whatever man.

It's instancing, I can sometimes not even instance with my own squadron or wing mates in a system there it's only us. It takes a relog or 2 to instance. If you have an instance with a few people already it gets even harder to get into the same instance.
I'm now based in Colonia and even at the time I play, which is ghost hours, I met people every time. From explorers, holiday makers, call of the wild followers, engineer unlockers, residents, gankers, and "noobs" all in open. Sometimes we try to shoot each other, or work together, or normal o7 and some small talk, or just a stern look without saying anything, that is what makes open fun. FDEv said that open is the most popular mode, but with the games size, time zones, and instancing meeting other players outside of hot spots is not a given.

In same post you say instancing is a but also you see lot of ppl. You dont how many of these 63 players per hour are not instanced with u because playing solo and how many because "its instancing". I hope wingmates and squadron mates form your argument are living in same part of the globe, right? Otherwise this argument is void.

Can you provide quote of "Fdev said that open is the most popular mode"?

It would effect everyone, just look at the C&P, it mainly effect's people who play the bgs and people who rarely interact with it. Lets say you put an PvP flag or some other similar thing, now bgs stuff becomes even more of an bucket filling exercise than before. Right now PvP can have an impact on your level of bucket filling and at least for us and our last 2 "enemies" it is a welcome distraction to have a few fights in between bucket filling. With system chat and the carriers now you can interact with people in different instances, modes, and platforms.
Open should stay as it is, free for all. I'm not advocating for removing or restricting the other modes either. If the OPs proposal would be implemented the number of people I organically can interact with will be limited only because my main activities are bgs related and I'm Triple Elite because of it. Now I can't go fight anymore much more experienced PvPs as many have a lower combat rank than me.

C&P? Crime and punishment? I dont get first sentence of ur post.
Regarding PVP & BGS. If someone doesnt want to be bothered when pumping influence then he/she will just play in solo/pg. With PvP flag being a thing - you will at least see someone BGSing against you. Obviously, such flag would be visible right away (i hope its clear to everyone) - like rectangle with diffrent color or not being rectangle but circle, for example.
System chat? Surely its some kind of interaction but come one - seeing actually some ship its slightly difrrent, besides i'm not going to ping every system asking if there is anyone. If people would play in open i'd see immedietly. Once i went to jumpnium system (with crystal shards) - system chat dead - said "hi" - turned out 3-4 fols were there they even know about each other cause noone thought to ask. 3 of us teamed up and were farming mats togheter.

"Now I cant go fight anymore much more experienced PvPs as many have a lower combat rank than me" - How diffrence in ranks is a problem?

 

[Just Paul]

C&P? Crime and punishment? I dont get first sentence of ur post.

The C&P revamp was seen by many as a way to punish gankers or player killers, but in the end anybody who interacted with the C&P a lot figured out really fast how to minimize it's impact. The only ones left punished by it were bgs players and noobs. I mean you still have people who don't know that upon rebuy you need to pay all the bounties on the ship to get it back. You think if you put artificial restrictions it would be different?

Regarding PVP & BGS. If someone doesnt want to be bothered when pumping influence then he/she will just play in solo/pg. With PvP flag being a thing - you will at least see someone BGSing against you. Obviously, such flag would be visible right away (i hope its clear to everyone) - like rectangle with diffrent color or not being rectangle but circle, for example.

That would be horrible, I rather have them keep playing in Solo/PG than with an magic shield. There are enough ways in game and out of to track other groups activities, all better groups do it, especially in a conflict. Their is no need to have them dance on my nose and I can't do anything about it. I'm really curious how that works in the big PGs. Do they just ignore each other, don't really do competetive bgs stuff, or use their own PG for bgs PvP?

System chat? Surely its some kind of interaction but come one - seeing actually some ship its slightly difrrent, besides i'm not going to ping every system asking if there is anyone. If people would play in open i'd see immedietly. Once i went to jumpnium system (with crystal shards) - system chat dead - said "hi" - turned out 3-4 fols were there they even know about each other cause noone thought to ask. 3 of us teamed up and were farming mats togheter.

I made in game friends with people playing in solo through system chat or helped visitors and new arrivals get their bearings in Colonia. I don't care if they play in solo/pg, I rather have people choose the right mode for them instead of insisting to change another to suit them.
All the mat grinding places are usually done in solo as you lose efficiency if others "take" the stuff. But good for you to team up and have fun, that's more important than the cr/hr race. I do the same in Colonia if I have free time from other stuff. I even put my carrier in an uninhabitat system to facilitate player interactions, mainly organized PvP fights. It's open to all, so even the console guys can have fun there, which is awesome and one of the best things of carriers (cross platform).
Winging up with strangers can be fun and make a grind bearable. The same fun can be had running the gauntlet or getting into organic fights, at least for me.

"Now I cant go fight anymore much more experienced PvPs as many have a lower combat rank than me" - How diffrence in ranks is a problem?

Did you read the op?
Many people who only PvP have low combat ranks. So with that I can't interact with them anymore or face harsher punishment just because I do other things in the game too. That's just (insert colorful words of your choice). Combat rank says nothing about the skill level of a player.

 

[cmdr Ramius007]

I noticed some patterns in statements about "pve and pvp ships" by players who are not engaged in pvp... nothing like this exist, good pvp build will dominate most pve scenarios, but "pve build" is usuallly easily countered by double chaff or just dont need any counters at all to be beaten, also in hands of skilled pilot "pvp build" will be more effective in pve scenario, all inbalance in pvp comes from skill diffrence and only skill diffrence, and "pve build" is usually low skill/lazy build that offers slighty more staying power over "pvp build" that in some extreame scenarios may come handy, in other words we have good and bad builds. Another thing is that if you are in hauler or hybrid multipurpose ship your goal should be escaping and it's completely fine balance, becouse supertankers don't engage destroyers, even during age of sail multipurpose galleons were outclassed by ship of line. What is bad and create huge entry problem for pvp is engineering and to alleviate this lower level engineering should offer more benefits compered to g 4-5.

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

Just like gankers claiming they "provide content" and are "essential to game" - they offer annoyance and are not fun to play with. Its amazing that u prefer fight newbies instead trying to outsmart "these ugly spear noobs"


Also they need to stop shooting back.
I heard they cause plagues and earthquakes too (that remark "quit doing whatever they do to screw up instancing" won internets)

I just cant >.< Alll that excuses to justify why fighting newbs and random ppl rather than spear are amazing. Whatever man.



In same post you say instancing is a but also you see lot of ppl. You dont how many of these 63 players per hour are not instanced with u because playing solo and how many because "its instancing". I hope wingmates and squadron mates form your argument are living in same part of the globe, right? Otherwise this argument is void.

Can you provide quote of "Fdev said that open is the most popular mode"?


C&P? Crime and punishment? I dont get first sentence of ur post.
Regarding PVP & BGS. If someone doesnt want to be bothered when pumping influence then he/she will just play in solo/pg. With PvP flag being a thing - you will at least see someone BGSing against you. Obviously, such flag would be visible right away (i hope its clear to everyone) - like rectangle with diffrent color or not being rectangle but circle, for example.
System chat? Surely its some kind of interaction but come one - seeing actually some ship its slightly difrrent, besides i'm not going to ping every system asking if there is anyone. If people would play in open i'd see immedietly. Once i went to jumpnium system (with crystal shards) - system chat dead - said "hi" - turned out 3-4 fols were there they even know about each other cause noone thought to ask. 3 of us teamed up and were farming mats togheter.

"Now I cant go fight anymore much more experienced PvPs as many have a lower combat rank than me" - How diffrence in ranks is a problem?

You're delusional. I prefer PvP with my buddies cause they fight fair and are fun to fight with.

Go ahead, keep making crazy assumptions. You obviously know all these players and how the PvP/ganker community works better than I do.

 

[Rat Catcher]

You're delusional. I prefer PvP with my buddies cause they fight fair and are fun to fight with.

Go ahead, keep making crazy assumptions. You obviously know all these players and how the PvP/ganker community works better than I do.

It's your name

No matter what you write there will be folk with selective comprehension skills - I remember when you moved onto PC (that seems a long time ago) and told us lot you were no longer ganking.

I would have leapt to your defence but you are big enough, and ugly enough, to do it yourself

 

[Sir Ganksalot]

It's your name

No matter what you write there will be folk with selective comprehension skills - I remember when you moved onto PC (that seems a long time ago) and told us lot you were no longer ganking.

I would have leapt to your defence but you are big enough, and ugly enough, to do it yourself

Lol. I did quit ganking for a while and was only doing piracy but started ganking in more of a fun way by making them solve math equations to live but we also sat at Farseer base for a day, sniping out thrusters and watching people crash in into the planet, but I really don't gank much. Mostly just PvP with anyone that wants to fight. Also teaching people how to survive a gank more recently.
But I get it with the name. So many people know me by this name now though, I think it would be a mistake to change it.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Lol. I did quit ganking for a while and was only doing piracy but started ganking in more of a fun way by making them solve math equations to live but we also sat at Farseer base for a day, sniping out thrusters and watching people crash in into the planet, but I really don't gank much. Mostly just PvP with anyone that wants to fight. Also teaching people how to survive a gank more recently.
But I get it with the name. So many people know me by this name now though, I think it would be a mistake to change it.

I wasn't certain if you had been 'having fun' since - and won't begrudge you the fun anyway

Keep the name - it always makes me chuckle (in a nice way!) and I think the place would be less interesting for the loss of it.

 

[Misty_Dark]

Can you provide quote of "Fdev said that open is the most popular mode"?

From Live Stream:
FDEV - Lavecon Recap and Mining Focused Feedback

The actual quote that Open is most popular mode is starting at time 52:00